Aether Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 Except Gavilar had gone all Way of Kings on everybody, and the book is pretty clear about how a leader should behave. Bringing back the greatshells so he can use them, one way or another, to take over the world doesn't sound like something Gavilar would do. Try imagining Dalinar telling Adolin that he has a plan that will put him in charge of every Vorin kingdom, and that plan involves pretending that he is a gift from the Almighty himself. Well, he is receiving visions from the Almighty himself (even though he is dead), he knows that now. So it wouldn't be too far-fetched to extrapolate wildly and randomly and suppose that Dalinar in his megalomaniac schemes to force everyone to bow before The Way of Kings would proclaim himself a prophet of the One True (though dead) God and conquer all Vorin kingdoms as Blackthorn, the Mighty warrior-general of the AlMighty! Even if Gavilar, the wuzz, wouldn't have. I realise, of course, that Dalinar has proclaimed himself utterly uninterested in ruling in one of his POV-chapters, but this is completely irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
name_here Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 Well, the Way Of Kings would frown on falsifying a divine sign, yes. However, the divine right of kings/nobility has always been kind of circular reasoning, and the Ardents are explicitly the religious subordinates of the Brightlords, so there isn't even a separate organization to add legitimacy. Brightlords are in charge because the Almighty wants them to be in charge, and you know the Almighty wants them to be because they are in charge. Thus, it is entirely reasonable within Vorin theology for Gavilar to believe that his accomplishments occur by divine grace and are a sign that he should rule. This is especially true if he were receiving visions in which the Almighty commanded him to unite people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 (edited) Also, the only thing Brandon has said is that all Heralds were either seen or mentioned in tWoK. As far as I know, he did not say to what extent, so the mention and viewing Jezrien got in the Prelude might be all he ever got in the book. In my opinion, there is just WAY to little to go on here. Of course, he might still be Jezrien, but at this point, wehave no firm evidence, only maybe shadows of possible would-be hints and red-herrings. I disagree that there's way too little to go on. You left out a fairly significant part of the quote with the beggar speaking gibberish: “Have you seen me?” the man asked with slurred speech. He laughed, then began to speak in gibberish, reaching for a wineskin. So it was drink after all. Szeth brushed by, continuing past a line of statues depicting the Ten Heralds from ancient Vorin theology. Jezerezeh, Ishi, Kelek, Talenelat. I would interpret the beggar as asking if Szeth has "seen me" as in, seen him as represented by the statue of Jezerezeh. No one else in the entirety of TWOK speaks 'gibberish' except for Dalinar, who is later confirmed as speaking Dawnchant. We know that Jezrien is currently drooling. Is it a stretch? I don't think so, though it could be a red herring. I don't think it's possible for there to be more evidence unless the beggar were to openly say he was Jezrien. I would say I think the chances are fairly high, though obviously without more evidence I would say it's hard to say for sure. It's also a cue to be very very suspicious when a character brushes someone off as unimportant, I would say. If they were that unimportant, they likely wouldn't be remarked on or given dialogue. There were also two more Heralds (or Radiants?) at the feast, talking to Elhokar, as I recall. Is a third so far-fetched? Edited October 30, 2013 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daishi5 Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 I don't think we should rule out the idea that the black sphere has something to do with the Parshendi's fears. If Gavilar got the Black Sphere of Doom as a result of what he did, then the mere fact that he had it would mean that Szeth had failed to stop him. The Parshendi may not have mentioned anything about the Black Sphere, because any instructions at that point would have been futile any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 If this were the case, I'd be surprised. Not because it's implausible, but because it's a boring answer to an interesting question, and Brandon is not one to take the fun away from a good question like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 I would interpret the beggar as asking if Szeth has "seen me" as in, seen him as represented by the statue of Jezerezeh. Interesting. I had not thought of that. With this last piece of circumstantial evidence, I find myself inclined to join the ranks of sharders believing this theory. I am, however, not entirely sold on the idea that the quote about the drooling is indeed referring to Jezrien. It might as well be, but it didn't name him, and it hasn't - to my knowledge - been otherwise confirmed. Could someone conjure up the actual quote? If this were the case, I'd be surprised. Not because it's implausible, but because it's a boring answer to an interesting question, and Brandon is not one to take the fun away from a good question like that. What he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 Steelhunt content: His Shardblade vanished to mist. He’d been bested, but he didn’t seem to care. Not a curse, not even a tightening of the eyes. He stood up and pulled on his gloves by the cuffs, first one, then the other. “Praise Yaezir,” he said. “Herald of kings. May he lead in wisdom. If he ever stops drooling.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 Steelhunt content: His Shardblade vanished to mist. He’d been bested, but he didn’t seem to care. Not a curse, not even a tightening of the eyes. He stood up and pulled on his gloves by the cuffs, first one, then the other. “Praise Yaezir,” he said. “Herald of kings. May he lead in wisdom. If he ever stops drooling.” Woah! Ok, Jez it is. Bloody pervasive theory. I'm in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daishi5 Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 If this were the case, I'd be surprised. Not because it's implausible, but because it's a boring answer to an interesting question, and Brandon is not one to take the fun away from a good question like that. It isn't clear to me who you were answering with this, were you replying to my post, or someone else's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 Yours. "They didn't mention it because they didn't think it was important" is something that we don't see much in fantasy. Novels rarely include unimportant details, but they also rarely leave important ones out. That's what I meant by "boring answer" - it's too realworld-y. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 Steelhunt content: ...” I am not willing to quote Steelhunt content, but this quote is out of context, IMO. In context, it can be seen as referring to someone other than Jezrien. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 Context doesn't change anything for me, but I know why you might feel that it does. For sake of completeness, here is the entire relevant section from the Steelhunt: “A sign has been given,” said the lead vizier. “We have a Prime who can survive the attacks of the One All White. Praise to Yaezir, Kadasix of Kings, may he lead in wisdom. This youth is Prime. He has been Prime always. We have only now realized it, and beg his forgiveness for not seeing the truth sooner.” “As it always has been done,” the elderly scion said. “As it will be done again. Stand down, constable. You have been given an order.” Darkness studied Lift. She smiled tiredly. Show the starvin’ man some teeth. That was the right of it. His Shardblade vanished to mist. He’d been bested, but he didn’t seem to care. Not a curse, not even a tightening of the eyes. He stood up and pulled on his gloves by the cuffs, first one, then the other. “Praise Yaezir,” he said. “Herald of kings. May he lead in wisdom. If he ever stops drooling.” Darkness bowed to the new Prime, then left with a sure step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 (edited) Context doesn't change anything for me, but I know why you might feel that it does. For sake of completeness, here is the entire relevant section from the Steelhunt: Thanks, Argent. Steelhunt spoiler What makes it apparent to me that the new "youth" Prime is being spoken of is that the previous use of "he" in the paragraph seems to be referring to the new leader. So the next "he" must be referring to the same person. Specifically, the "he" in "May he lead in wisdom" is likely referring to the newly appointed youth Prime and repeats the phrasing in the first paragraph you quote. It is not likely to be referring to Jezrien, who, as far as we know, is not leading anything and is, except for ritual phrasing, not relevant to the conversation. It follows that the "he" in "If he ever stops drooling" is the youth and the sentence expresses Darkness' contempt for the new "youth" Prime. Whom he then bows to. Edited October 30, 2013 by hoser 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 Considering that Baxil, in his interlude, prays to a being he thinks of as "the Prime Kadasix" (i.e. the Prime Herald), it isn't a stretch of the imagination to surmise that the Emuli (and the nations they share culture with) regard Yaezir as the leader of the Kadasix, or at least a first song equals. Which suggests, in turn, that he does lead - and his worshippers pray that he leads them in wisdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloom Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 We have three related theories about Jezrien, and I don't see how they can all be compatible. We have the theory that Szeth carries Jezriens Honorblade. We have the theory that the two men Jasnah encountered are Heralds. We have the theory that the drunkard that approached Szeth was Jezrien. You can believe any two of these theories and not have a conflict. I don't see how you can believe all three. If the two men that Jasnah encountered are Heralds, then when one of them said “I don’t like this. What we’ve done is wrong. That creature carries my lord’s own Blade. We shouldn’t have let him keep it. He—” He would have been talking about Jezriens Honorblade. But then When Szeth encounters the person who is theorized to be Jezrien, all he asks is 'Have you seen me?"? I would think that if Szeth encountered Jezrien while in possession of Jezriens Honorblade, Jezrien might have something more to say about it than that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 If you add to this list the fact that, according to Darkness, Jezrien cannot stop "drooling", and assume Jezrien has "snapped" and is crazy, he would not have anything to say to Szeth about his sword Plus, when they met, Szeth did not have his sword out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloom Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 I doubt he had the sword out in front of the companion of Darkness. I'm assuming they have other ways to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 Considering that Baxil, in his interlude, prays to a being he thinks of as "the Prime Kadasix" (i.e. the Prime Herald), it isn't a stretch of the imagination to surmise that the Emuli (and the nations they share culture with) regard Yaezir as the leader of the Kadasix, or at least a first song equals. Which suggests, in turn, that he does lead - and his worshippers pray that he leads them in wisdom. Certainly. But in context it makes no sense. Worshippers may pray to Jezrien, but here we have the announcement of a monarch and his first act. Said monarch is, in fact, present. Jezrien is nowhere present or relevent. Whatever worshippers do when they pray doesn't really matter. What is relevent is that there is a new ruler and the wish that he rules wisely. The references to Prime Kadasix seem formulaic and irrelevant. Further, there is no evidence that Jezrien is drooling in any way. When seen in the Prelude, he doesn't resemble the drunkard at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11thorderknight Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 Exactly - hence my theory, posted elsewhere, that Yaezir is the Emuli name for Ishar, who is in fact the old guy drooling at the feast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrien Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 (edited) I'm fairly certain the Emuli are one of the races that worship the Heralds as outright gods, not just vessels of the Almighty. It's highly likely that the phrase in question is just a generic prayer to their head god, and much as Christians don't expect God to be standing by ready to cosign their testimony when they swear to 'tell nothing but the truth, so help me god', they don't need Jezrien to be standing there to praise him for his choice in a new Prime. The line referring to Yaezir is all one sentence, separate from any reference to the new Prime. The use of 'Kadasix' in Basil's interlude, and Darkness in the Lift chapter all very well establish the 'Kadasix' = 'Herald' idea. Steelhunt Quotes The Kadasixes have spoken,” said one of the scions. “The Heralds?” Darkness said. ... “We have a Prime who can survive the attacks of the One All White. Praise to Yaezir, Kadasix of Kings, may he lead in wisdom. This youth is Prime. He has been Prime always. We have only now realized it, and beg his forgiveness for not seeing the truth sooner.” ...“Praise Yaezir,” he said. “Herald of kings. May he lead in wisdom. If he ever stops drooling.” Oh also assuming the information on this page is accurate (I can't access the TWG archives to check) Y and J are interchangeable in the Alethi Script meaning Yaezir = Jezrien is a closer phonetic match than first appears. Edited October 30, 2013 by Ethrien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 Really I don't understand why the interpretation above is so hard to believe. "We have a new king, that is so cool! Praise God, may He (GOD) protect us (LEAD IN WISDOM)! Here is our king! Long live the king!" Why do people believe "may he lead in wisdom" refers to the prime?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloom Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 I know this isn't an established theory that people have grown attached to or anything, but it could also be that Jezrien is comatose somewhere being spoon fed like a baby while his mind is trapped in the Highstorm. We really don't know who Jezrien is, potentially, every single theory we have can be wrong. Even theories based on WoB can be wrong. It isn't cannon until it's cannon, so while my example may be unlikely, we should remember that no matter how hard we argue for a theory, only Brandon can speak with certitude. I'd say that, yeah, the theory that Jezrien may be drooling is established. Evidence was presented, the evidence was evaluated, and enough people excepted it that it has validity as a theory. That's pretty much all that was established. It doesn't prove Jezrien was the drunkard who spoke gibberish, just that he drools a lot. this line can be applied to other theories, that's fine, it doesn't prove them though. So if you want to believe the theory, that's fine. If someone else wants to believe a different theory, well, sooner or later one of you could be right. Some of us will be so far off the mark it will be funny. In March we'll know some things for sure, we'll have better theories about other things. There isn't any real point in arguing the point any further until we receive additional information from which to draw new insights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 I am not referring to the Jezrien = the drunk guy. I agree that Jezrien can be anywhere. I was referring to Jezrien = drooling vs. the new Prime = drooling. I'm not a native English speaker, but I can't see the second making any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 It does, but it's weird. A more sensible way of saying what the vizier did would be "We have a new Prime! Oh, God, may he lead us in wisdom. He is our Prime. He has always been our Prime." and so on. It feels like interpreting this is like one of the double meaning illusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloom Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 I am not referring to the Jezrien = the drunk guy. I agree that Jezrien can be anywhere. I was referring to Jezrien = drooling vs. the new Prime = drooling. I'm not a native English speaker, but I can't see the second making any sense. I wasn't aiming the post at you in particular. In fact I was well into writing it before you posted. I agree that I believe the comment was being used to reference Jezrien. Those who are convinced it is directed at the new Prime can feel that way if they want to. I was basically trying to put the argument into perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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