Where does Feruchemy come from?

[NathanielHellman he/him]

I can't remember if this was covered in the books or not, but where did feruchamy come from? We know that the Terris people had it long before Allomancy and Hemalurgy became some what common in the Mistborn world, but I don't think we know anything else. The only thing that I can think of is that it is a magic system that combines the elements of Ruin and Preservation, although why it was only given to the Terris people is beyond me.

Edited September 13, 2015 by NathanielHellman

[Yata he/him]

In the books It's never explained, I have a theory but I don't write it for good on the forum yet.

Probably the origin of Feruchemy will be explain in the next mistborn books anyway.

[Oudeis he/him]

My friend asked this at a signing once, but was told to RAFO.

[Yata he/him]

My friend asked this at a signing once, but was told to RAFO.

Same to me, when I asked him in the AMA but my question was a lot specific.

[Sophiina she/her]

From what I recall, Feruchemy came from Preservation. Nothing is created or destroyed, only transferred from one form to the other. Allomancy was jointly created by Preservation and Ruin, and Hemalurgy was created by Ruin (something is lost in the transfer).

Edited September 12, 2015 by Sophiina

[Yata he/him]

From what I recall, Feruchemy came from Preservation. Nothing is created or destroyed, only transferred from one form to the other. Allomancy was jointly created by Preservation and Ruin, and Hemalurgy was created by Ruin (something is lost in the transfer).

You switched Allomancy and Feruchemy:

Allomancy came from Preservation.

Hemalurgy came from Ruin.

Feruchemy came from both of them, like art of balance (Or harmony XD)

Edited September 12, 2015 by Yata

[Sophiina she/her]

You switched Allomancy and Feruchemy:

Allomancy came from Preservation.

Hemalurgy came from Ruin.

Feruchemy came from both of them, like art of balance (Or harmony XD)

If I switched them over then it's only because the way I consider it, that makes more sense. Preservation and Ruin - ingesting a metal (which destroys it) but getting power from it. That isn't preserving it, but also ruining it. =P But preserving something would make sense with Feruchemy since it's kind of like the 'Law of Conservation of Energy'. It isn't created or destroyed, just changed from one state to another.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Sophiina

[natc]

And technically, the shards did not create them. The metallic arts are "of" them to some extent, shaped by their intents, and they have some influence over the way the magic functions, but IIRC the metallic arts as we know them exist as a realmatic byproduct of their presence on Scadrial than anything intentional.

[Yata he/him]

And technically, the shards did not create them. The metallic arts are "of" them to some extent, shaped by their intents, and they have some influence over the way the magic functions, but IIRC the metallic arts as we know them exist as a realmatic byproduct of their presence on Scadrial than anything intentional.

Yes, the right Shard could just manipolate his own manifestation of Investiture in some degree.

 

But back on the philosofy of the Metallic Ars.

The Hemalurgy purpose is to steal part of living essence to reduce the amount of stable "thinks".(negative positive, the power obtained is less than the power stealed)

The Feruchemy use his own energy to give them later (end neutral the power aren't obtained or lost).

The Allomancy use a external catalyst to access of Preservation's power(the power aren't in the metal, the metal are just a key to access) and the Allomancer's power isn't consumed at all. (positive end, the power is gained).

Edited September 12, 2015 by Yata

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

It isn't covered yet but two of the most likely possibilities are;

 

equal percentage/an alloy of Lerasium and Atium (or possibly Harmonium, the former case being part of an agreement/experiment between Pres/Ruin)

Someone's idea from the AMA (possibly yours Yata, i can't remember) about what would happen if the imbalance of innate Preservation and Ruin was corrected through the addition of Ruin. (possibly through a non-allomancer Scadrian ingesting Atium)

Edited September 13, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Yata he/him]

It isn't covered yet but two of the most likely possibilities are;

 

equal percentage/an alloy of Lerasium and Atium (or possibly Harmonium, the former case being part of an agreement/experiment between Pres/Ruin)

Someone's idea from the AMA (possibly yours Yata, i can't remember) about what would happen if the imbalance of innate Preservation and Ruin was corrected through the addition of Ruin. (possibly through a non-allomancer Scadrialese ingesting Atium)

Yes It's my question.

My idea was a little different from this but the main point is correct. Tomorrow or Monday, I'll try to put it black on white on the forum, for better discuss.

[Jondesu he/him]

My impression has always been that Feruchemy wasn't made by Preservation or Ruin, or even as a response to or balance between them.  I understood that the planets in the Cosmere had their own natural "magic systems", Scadrial's being based on metals, and that Feruchemy is the native magic, without the Shards involvement.  When each Shard put their spin on it, we got Allomancy from Preservation, and Hemalurgy from Ruin, but both are basically based on Feruchemy and the natural interaction of Investiture with metals on Scadrial.

 

jW

[Yata he/him]

My impression has always been that Feruchemy wasn't made by Preservation or Ruin, or even as a response to or balance between them.  I understood that the planets in the Cosmere had their own natural "magic systems", Scadrial's being based on metals, and that Feruchemy is the native magic, without the Shards involvement.  When each Shard put their spin on it, we got Allomancy from Preservation, and Hemalurgy from Ruin, but both are basically based on Feruchemy and the natural interaction of Investiture with metals on Scadrial.

 

jW

I understand your point. But it can't be.

The "natural magic" are under the same rule of the "shardic magic" but the amount of Investiture is very very low.

Brandon in a WoB stated:

"The Natural Magic are something with interact, not something you (sensient species) can use".

Probably by the interference of the more Invested Creatures (like Humans).

 

Take as example the only two "natural magic" saw so far (Spoiler from Sixth of the dusk and Shadow for silence in the Forest of Hell).

- Aviar:  The bird give blessing to the Humans, without any control of the human.

-Shadows: Same things. There are no active control.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Yata

[Zephryl]

Was there life on the planet before Ruin and Preservation made their own? I can't remember the exact reasoning as to why Preservation wanted to make life so I thought maybe the Terris people were the original species of the planet, and then Ruin and Preservation made whatever the Skaa and Nobles were before Rashek tinkered with them.

[Yata he/him]

Was there life on the planet before Ruin and Preservation made their own? I can't remember the exact reasoning as to why Preservation wanted to make life so I thought maybe the Terris people were the original species of the planet, and then Ruin and Preservation made whatever the Skaa and Nobles were before Rashek tinkered with them.

There isn't life on Scadrial before Preservation and Ruin.

Their pact was to create simple life at the beginning and Sentient Life after.

[Moogle]

Was there life on the planet before Ruin and Preservation made their own? I can't remember the exact reasoning as to why Preservation wanted to make life so I thought maybe the Terris people were the original species of the planet, and then Ruin and Preservation made whatever the Skaa and Nobles were before Rashek tinkered with them.

 

We aren't sure, but Ruin and Preservation may have made the planet from scratch (also, we have several WoBs implying such: 1, 2). Certainly they did make life on it: it was a plot point that creating life was the reason Preservation was weaker than Ruin.

[Jondesu he/him]

I understand your point. But it can't be.

The "natural magic" are under the same rule of the "shardic magic" but the amount of Investiture is very very low.

Brandon in a WoB stated:

"The Natural Magic are something with interact, not something you (sensient species) can use".

Probably by the interference of the more Invested Creatures (like Humans).

Sorry, should have been more specific.  The natural magics that arise on each planet are amplified when Shards set up, and have a lot to do with the types of magic the Shards can set up (this is of course all my theory, but appears to be based on what Brandon has said and what we see in-world), so while no, Feruchemy itself didn't exactly exist prior to the Shards, I also don't think it was created by the Shards directly, but was merely the result of a lot of Investiture from the Shards suddenly being dumped into the system as they created humans and other things on the planet, and therefore the development of Feruchemy was unintentional and not governed by the Shards, but was simply a natural outgrowth of the magic that Scadrial already had naturally.

 

jW

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

IIRC, the exact reasoning why Pres/Ruin created life was because neither Shard could create on their own, so they had to work together to do so, only the life wasn't aware or some such, ergo Preservation sacrificed more of his power to give them sentience/sapience. 

 

Yata can you provide that WoB on Natural Magic vs Shardic magic, as I was under the impression they were one and the same. Seeing as the magic systems were already a natural development and it was only through Shardic interference do we see the systems in their current forms.

Edited September 13, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Zephryl]

Yeah, I wasn't sure if they created all the life, or if perhaps there was already life on the planet and they just wanted to make Life that was their own, but it does sound like it's very likely they either made the planet themselves or found themselves there during it's formation.

 

So I think it most likely that when they created Scadrial, or arrived during its formation, the balance of Ruin and Preservation caused Ferulchemy to manifest as the "Natural" magic of the planet and later on when they started tinkering about using their individual powers it allowed the two "Unbalanced" Metallic Arts to form.

[Yata he/him]

 

Yata can you provide that WoB on Natural Magic vs Shardic magic, as I was under the impression they were one and the same. Seeing as the magic systems were already a natural development and it was only through Shardic interference do we see the systems in their current forms.

The Natural & Shardic magic, is the same (maybe i was unclear before) the only difference is in the amount of Investiture.

The Natural magic came with inusual concentration of Investiture Pre-Shattering, but this concentration is quite nothing compared to the amount that a Shard take with himself when come to a planet.

 

I'm doing a fast research but at the moment I didn't find the Wob, I'll search better later. I have a exam to do in few ours

[Yata he/him]

I didn't find the right WoB. But I found this (with less information sorry )

 

QUESTION

What differentiates a minor Shardworld like First of the Sun?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The amount of Investiture, and whether there is actually a Shard in presence.

QUESTION

I'm assuming there is not one there?

BRANDON SANDERSON

There is not one there.

QUESTION

So it's like a Splintered one from something else?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No what you'll find is that the worlds were all created with a level of-- a little bit of sort of ambient magic. What you'll find in worlds like that is things like, Shadows for Silence and things like this, the magic, it's not necessarily "people with magic" it's you can interact with nature...

QUESTION

So there is inherent investiture...

BRANDON SANDERSON

There is inherent investiture in every world created but you are going to see-- You aren't going to find Mistborn on a world like that but what you might find is a way there are magic aspects to the setting. Spren could exist on a world like that but they would be like the minor spren, you wouldn't find Syl, but you would find something like lifespren.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Yata

[tobar14 he/him]

If I switched them over then it's only because the way I consider it, that makes more sense. Preservation and Ruin - ingesting a metal (which destroys it) but getting power from it. That isn't preserving it, but also ruining it. =P But preserving something would make sense with Feruchemy since it's kind of like the 'Law of Conservation of Energy'. It isn't created or destroyed, just changed from one state to another.

Allomancy - Preservation - Positive

     You use a catalyst (metals) to let the power of preservation into the physical realm in certain ways (depending on the metal). Thus you are using preservations power and not your own, and it becomes an end positive system. Thus you are preserving your own power.

 

Hemalurgy - Ruin - Negative

     You steal a piece of someone's SDNA, and when you spike it to your own, some of that investiture is lost.  So power is lost, meaning it is an end negative system.  You ruin someone else's power.

 

Feruchemy - Harmony/Balance - Neutral

    You store up your own power, then you use it later. Another way of saying it is, you preserve your own power, then you "ruin/destroy/lose" it by using it.  So in the end, it is a neutral system.  Ruin and preservation balance each other, and feruchemy is all about that balance.

 

I believe they stated this in the book, but I'm too lazy to find where...sorry.

[Kaymyth she/her]

Allomancy - Preservation - Positive

     You use a catalyst (metals) to let the power of preservation into the physical realm in certain ways (depending on the metal). Thus you are using preservations power and not your own, and it becomes an end positive system. Thus you are preserving your own power.

 

Hemalurgy - Ruin - Negative

     You steal a piece of someone's SDNA, and when you spike it to your own, some of that investiture is lost.  So power is lost, meaning it is an end negative system.  You ruin someone else's power.

 

Feruchemy - Harmony/Balance - Neutral

    You store up your own power, then you use it later. Another way of saying it is, you preserve your own power, then you "ruin/destroy/lose" it by using it.  So in the end, it is a neutral system.  Ruin and preservation balance each other, and feruchemy is all about that balance.

 

I believe they stated this in the book, but I'm too lazy to find where...sorry.

 

It's in the Ars Arcanum at the end of Alloy of Law.

[Edgedancer he/him]

Allomancy - Preservation - Positive

You use a catalyst (metals) to let the power of preservation into the physical realm in certain ways (depending on the metal). Thus you are using preservations power and not your own, and it becomes an end positive system. Thus you are preserving your own power.

Hemalurgy - Ruin - Negative

You steal a piece of someone's SDNA, and when you spike it to your own, some of that investiture is lost. So power is lost, meaning it is an end negative system. You ruin someone else's power.

Feruchemy - Harmony/Balance - Neutral

You store up your own power, then you use it later. Another way of saying it is, you preserve your own power, then you "ruin/destroy/lose" it by using it. So in the end, it is a neutral system. Ruin and preservation balance each other, and feruchemy is all about that balance.

I believe they stated this in the book, but I'm too lazy to find where...sorry.

You know I have heard that reasoning as for why the Systems are aligned like that and even if it's true for me that only really makes sense if they were actively crafted by the Shardholders but as far as we know they weren't, they were created in an almost mechanical way.

Now let's look at the mechanics.

Hemalurgy I don't think anyone is debating.

Feruchemy: neutral and works by putting something into a stasis, which fits rather well with the pure Intent of the Shard of Preservation. (Something that isn't inherently positive and if left unchecked would like nothing more than to put the entire world in a stasis.)

Allomancy: positive, takes energy from somewhere else. Which I have to say fits best with the combination of the Shards, as it fits with both the "ruin something to preserve something else" theme that Vin used to explain why Leras needed someone with both Ruin and Preservation at the end of HoA (I'd say it does so for one by taking the energy from something else and given the aggressiv nature of Allomancy.) and it also fits with the fact that R&P had to work together to create something. (Aka the balance of the two isn't "neutral")

[Voidus]

Snapping is also something to consider, the point is to consider how you receive the power rather than what the power itself does. Hemalurgic power is only received by bringing ruin upon other creatures. Allomancy is only brought about as an act to preserve your own life.