Taln's Honorblade

[Palladia]

At the end of WOR, when Dalinar bonds with the Stormfather, he is told (WOR ch. 89) he must be a "Radiant with no Shards," and the Stormfather refers to the blade he has a "monstrosity." When he summons the Shardblade that he had bonded with in order to give it up, he hears screams.

 

My problem with this is, wasn't that blade the blade that was found when Taln collapsed at the gate of Kholinar (procured by Bordin, and later left in a cave to ensnare Amaram)? Shouldn't that be an Honorblade? If so, it isn't a dead spren so it shouldn't scream when he touches it (the same way Szeth's blade doesn't scream when Kaladin holds it, see WOR ch. 87).

 

It doesn't seem like it could be a different Shardblade that Taln got somewhere, because [speculation] when he got to Kholinar he had just manifested (he was wet, like Shardblades that are just summoned And then he collapsed and the blade didn't dissapear).

 

So, I decided to reread the part (WOR ch. 76) where Dalinar summons the blade and explains to Amaram that he had bonded with it before having placed "the madman's Shardblade" in the cave. And wouldn't you know it: The description of the blade Dalinar has is "wider than most" and "cleaverlike." That is almost the exact opposite of the description of Taln's blade at the end of (WOK Epilogue), "long, narrow, and straight, shaped like an enormous spike."

 

Dalinar is not a liar. He thinks he bonded with "the madman's Shardblade." But, he is wrong - the blade he bonded to was some other blade. The question is, what happened to Taln's Honorblade.

 

1) Dalinar didn't tell the full truth to Amaram, and Dalinar does know about the Honorblade, but it is somewhere else.... Dalinar bonded with some other blade and used it to trap Amaram after obtaining the Honorblade. This seems unlikely.

 

2) The Honorblade was switched at some point between Kholinar and the Shattered Plains. Likely suspects: Hoid (who traveled with Bordin and Taln for the first few days before bailing) or Bordin (the servant in charge of the transporting). It would indeed be problematic for Dalinar if Bordin was disloyal, because Dalinar considers him to be a faithful servant.

 

Thoughts?

[Moogle]

Good catch!
 
Dalinar doesn't have an Honorblade.
 
We have no idea where the madman's original Blade ended up, nor do we know if it was an Honorblade (it didn't have an effect on the man's eye color like Szeth's - he had dark eyes while holding it - so it might not be an Honorblade).
 
We discussed a few candidates here. We do know it wasn't Hoid.
 
I also managed to snag a response on this from the AMA, which was not very useful but maybe it'll spark something for you:

Q: The man who calls himself Taln had his Blade swapped with another. Presumably, the people (or person) doing so thought he had an Honorblade.
Would the people who did the swap have known if Taln did not in fact actually have an Honorblade? Could they have been taking a chance and in fact ended up with a regular Shardblade?
A: This is possible. Assuming they knew just what they were trying to grab, they'd probably have figured it out very quickly.
(source)

Edited September 10, 2015 by Moogle

[Yata he/him]

The blade was switched like you said.

 

Who he Did it is not sure but like you said, maybe (probably to me) it's the meaning of Hoid's presence.

[Palladia]

We discussed a few candidates here. We do know it wasn't Hoid.

 

Wow, this site is awesome. Thanks!

[Lightning he/him]

So, what will happen if in fact the stolen blade is an honorblade, and it is placed in the circle where the other honorblades where put (at the beginning of the first book)?  Would this actually break the honor-pact?

[Ascendant Warrior he/him]

So, what will happen if in fact the stolen blade is an honorblade, and it is placed in the circle where the other honorblades where put (at the beginning of the first book)?  Would this actually break the honor-pact?

 

I doubt this is the case.  Even if it were just the Honorblades all being together, Jezrien's blade is gone (Szeth) and Nalan has taken his blade back.  Taln is also still bound to the Oathpact, even if we're not sure about his whereabouts. 

[WeiryWriter he/him]

So, what will happen if in fact the stolen blade is an honorblade, and it is placed in the circle where the other honorblades where put (at the beginning of the first book)?  Would this actually break the honor-pact?

 

I got the impression that the "leaving the honorblades in a circle" was more a symbolic gesture?  As in it was just giving up the blades and turning away from their duties that the Heralds thought would break the Oathpact (which they weren't entirely correct about) but they could have just chucked all of the blades into a chasm as opposed to leaving them in a fancy circle and achieved the same thing.

[Lightning he/him]

I got the impression that the "leaving the honorblades in a circle" was more a symbolic gesture?  As in it was just giving up the blades and turning away from their duties that the Heralds thought would break the Oathpact (which they weren't entirely correct about) but they could have just chucked all of the blades into a chasm as opposed to leaving them in a fancy circle and achieved the same thing.

My impression was that what they did prevented them from returning to their torture.  But maybe I read too much into the story there.

[Shardlet he/him]

My impression was that what they did prevented them from returning to their torture.  But maybe I read too much into the story there.

 

I don't think that the way they left their blades had anything to do with not returning to torture.  I think that leaving the blades was more in line with the idea (likely originating from Jezrien) that if they were abandoning their positions and status as Heralds, then they should no longer carry the blades that were given to them to empower them in their roles as Heralds.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

That and it is demonstrated in-book (at least with sprenblades) that implanting the blade is the only way to keep it in the physical realm or to break the exisiting bond so perhaps the same initially applied to Heralds and their blades.

[natc]

. . . wait, what?

[Ascendant Warrior he/him]

Just because we see in-book that driving blades into the ground to pass them off doesn't mean it's the only way to pass on a Shardblade. In WoR chapter 14, Salinor just holds it and breaks the bond that way.

[Yata he/him]

That and it is demonstrated in-book (at least with sprenblades) that implanting the blade is the only way to keep it in the physical realm or to break the exisiting bond so perhaps the same initially applied to Heralds and their blades.

The only "Sure-way" to unbound a Shardblade is to remove (or maybe break) the gemstone. But just because the Blade need a gemstone-adding to be bondable.

 

But this way is not right to an Honorblade. The Honorblades doesn't need a gemstone to bound to a human.

 

PS: Theory: 

I don't really think that anybody could bound an Honorblade. they are still bond with their Heralds and nobody else. Every one who hold an Honorblade could use it and become a Surgebinder. But the Blade is not bound to him.

[Mestiv he/him]

PS: Theory: 

I don't really think that anybody could bound an Honorblade. they are still bond with their Heralds and nobody else. Every one who hold an Honorblade could use it and become a Surgebinder. But the Blade is not bound to him.

 

If that was the case, then Szeth wouldn't be able to summon his blade, he would have to carry it around like normal steel sword.

[Yata he/him]

If it's like i said. The honorblade could obey to the helder but not to be bond with it.

For example when szeth died the Honorblade doesn't vanish. there's a special phrase to point it out to the reader (like to say "remember this detail").

 

EDIT:
I'm just thought,we considerated Taln like the other Heralds. But He is the only one who don't break his oath. His Honorblade (regardless of my theory is true or false) must be bond to him. Even though he left behind the Blade.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Yata

[DreamEternal]

If it's like i said. The honorblade could obey to the helder but not to be bond with it.

For example when szeth died the Honorblade doesn't vanish. there's a special phrase to point it out to the reader (like to say "remember this detail").

EDIT:

I'm just thought,we considerated Taln like the other Heralds. But He is the only one who don't break his oath. His Honorblade (regardless of my theory is true or false) must be bond to him. Even though he left behind the Blade.

That is only true if there are too kinds of bonds a honorblade can have, the "bring you to Hell" bond and the "give you surgebinfing and bright eyes" bond.

I believe that if Taln is or was a Herald, the bond was forcibly broken. Of course, this raises the question of how the oathpact is not fully broken.

I do have a hypothesis that by taking the heralds as patrons the Knights Radiant formed a bond with the oathpact and must go throught a period in Braize after dying before they go to wherever people in the cosmere go after death, and broke their oaths after finding out.

[Moogle]

If it's like i said. The honorblade could obey to the helder but not to be bond with it.

For example when szeth died the Honorblade doesn't vanish. there's a special phrase to point it out to the reader (like to say "remember this detail").

 

When Heralds die, they don't actually die, so I'd attribute the "Honorblades disappear when their wielder dies" to Heralds being special. I imagine dead Sprenblades would also disappear when a Herald dies (if a Herald had one).

 

I doubt there's any special bond. People have speculated that Heralds have special bonds before, but a recent WoB notes that Honorblades were just as inefficient for the Heralds, so I don't see any evidence for that idea.

[Yata he/him]

 

I doubt there's any special bond. People have speculated that Heralds have special bonds before, but a recent WoB notes that Honorblades were just as inefficient for the Heralds, so I don't see any evidence for that idea.

In the WoB Brandon stated that "Honorblades are less efficient; this doesn't change when a Herald uses them. (But they have other advantages.)". The Bond could be "the same" but the different nature of Heralds could put different Mechanics on the field.

[natc]

. . . wait, what?

Come on, it's a bit too short for a reaction, but was downvoting it really necessary? I was going to type more but something came up

Edited September 11, 2015 by natc

[DreamEternal]

I doubt there's any special bond. People have speculated that Heralds have special bonds before, but a recent WoB notes that Honorblades were just as inefficient for the Heralds, so I don't see any evidence for that idea.

The "special bond" I spoke of is the bond to the oathpact. It is not related to surgebinding efficiency.

Unless you ascribe to the theory that Honorblades are so inneficient because they were made to syphon Odium's investiture between desolations in order to weaken him and diminish his power when he eventualy attacked when the heralds broke under torture.

Edited September 11, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Oudeis he/him]

I believe that if Taln is or was a Herald, the bond was forcibly broken.

 

You believe he's not still Bound to his Honorblade?

[Moogle]

The "special bond" I spoke of is the bond to the oathpact. It is not related to surgebinding efficiency.

Unless you ascribe to the theory that Honorblades are so inneficient because they were made to syphon Odium's investiture between desolations in order to weaken him and diminish his power when he eventualy attacked when the heralds broke under torture.

 

I was responding to Yata, who had a theory that the Honorblades are still bonded to the Heralds and they just obey people like Szeth. I disagree with that. I didn't mean to come across as disagreeing with you. I don't have any strong opinions to share in regards to your idea on the Oathpact. Sorry for any confusion.

[Yata he/him]

My theory was born from misenterpreting this WoB(I'didn't read the footnote). But I am curious about the Brandon's misunderstening and what he said.

 

QUESTION

Can someone bond more than one Honorblade?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Honorblade? You can't bond an Honorblade, though it can be given to you. Shardblades, however, come from a spren bond and it is possible to bond more than one.

FOOTNOTE

Later clarified, Brandon misunderstood the question. One may be bound to multiple Honorblades.

 

[DreamEternal]

You believe he's not still Bound to his Honorblade?

Well, I am not sure if the oathpact bond is there or not, but the surgebindind bond surely isn't, since he had dark eyes and lugged the blade around instead of keeping it as mist. I just happen to believe that the former bond requires the latter.

[Oudeis he/him]

Eh. I'm not as certain as you are that we understand everything about how the bond between Herald and Honorblade works.

 

Warbreaker.

Judging from the rest of the Returned, Vasher should have been huge with a massive aura, yet he wasn't. We know now the mechanism through which he did that, but for all we know there's just one more fact we don't yet currently know which might explain it. And in his case, we had a few characters, even a POV character, in exactly his position to compare him to. For Taln, the best we have is one single example of a non-Herald who managed to require 10 heartbeats to summon his Blade for no other reason than he expected to.

 

Is it possible Taln is no longer Bound to his Blade? Sure. But I'm not ready to claim to know so much about Heralds and Honorblades to say that it must be the case.