A question I once asked Brandon about Plate

[Miyabi]

I don't remember if I ever shared this little tidbit with you guys.

One time while I was at a signing with Brandon I asked him:

"Now, we see that people use gemstones to power their Shardplate and the gemstones glow like the old Plate used to. If someone were to put the entire set of Plate out in the Storm would it become infused with Stormlight?"

He gave me a typical EUOL answer and said:

"No, but that doesn't mean they don't have Stormlight already infused with them."

EDIT FOR CORRECTION:: I found a post by Phantom where he found the exact question and answer:

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2632-stomlight-infusion-and-shardplate/

Q: If you left Shardplate out in a Highstorm, would the Plate itself, not the the gemstones used to power it, become infused with Stormlight?

A: No, the Plate would not become infused with Stormlight. Now, you can take that to mean it can't hold Stormlight or that it already has Stormlight locked away inside it.

Now in my mind this allows for two possible major implications:

1; The Plate and Blade are created through the Investiture through some form of Stormlight manipulation.

2; Or that there is someway to release the Stormlight that is infused with the Plate in order to achieve the Plate we see in Dalinar's vision, whether that happens because of the glyphs he sees or the glyphs are a side-effect of the Stormlight leaking from the Plate I have no idea.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Miyabi

[Kurkistan]

I think we may think alike, Miyabi.

 

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2970-infusing-shardplate/

[Miyabi]

Testing?

I can't seem to reply to this thread, but others are just fine....

[Miyabi]

EDIT::: SORRY about the BEHEMOTH of a post. Now if only Peter would tell me if I'm right.... xD

I think the best point you make is this one.

Szeth. I hate that guy. He could be wrong, the gem-hack that modern plate uses could be what interferes with his Lashings, instead of the Plate itself, or I could be wrong. Assuming the second option, Dalinar isn't exactly Lashing things left and right, so it could be that Szeth would be perfectly capable of re-infusing stormlight into a set of Plate, he just prefers being able to use his Lashings.

Now I think this has something to do with Investiture. We know that the plate is an Invested object. We also know that Invested things resist other Investiture. I am inclined to believe that gems are also Invested when they are Infused with Stormlight. With the gems in the way of the conduits which absorb the Stormlight a person who is attempting to utilize any form of Surgebinding would find it blocked by the gems. Because with those conduits being blocked, the Stormlight wouldn't be able to make its way from the body to the other side of the Plate.

The Plate, being an Invested object, would block the Stormlight, except through those points which were made for that use. I would also assume that the Glyphs which seem to leek Stormlight are the channel by which the Stormlight leaves the Plate in order to affect the world outside of the Plate.

The fact that everyone who uses Plate seems to feel it requires the gemstones to work could have caused previous Shin Surgebinders, or perhaps even Szeth himself, to have attempted to use Plate while it had gems in it to no avail. This could have been due to lack of knowledge about needing to feed the Stormlight through the Plate or simply interference from the gems.

RE: Dalinar glowing;

There are a couple of things we can assume here. One being that even if the gems don't completely block Stormlight from getting through to the Plate from a Surgebinder it is significantly hampered. Similar to the way someone playing a trumpet might use a mute to let a little sound out, but hold much of it in reserve. I would imagine the amount of Stormlight which is blocked in this manner is rather large otherwise someone would have unwittingly Invested Stormlight into their Plate at some point in history between the Last Desolation and now. Perhaps Dalinar has a strong ability in using Stormlight in a similar way that Vin can pierce a Coppercloud.

RE: Szeth's lack of ability;

We know that Szeth, despite my theory, is not Bound to a Spren by WoB. Also by WoB we know that Kaladin is much stronger at Surgebinding than Szeth. Whether this means that Kaladin is super strong or that Szeth is weak we cannot really know as of yet. This lack or strength or lack of a Nahel Bond could contribute to his inability to use Plate and Surgebind at the same time. Or it could just be lack of knowledge.

RE: Elokhar's weakened spheres;

I like your ideas here. Elokhar, much like Kaladin, and probably Dalinar, is Surgebinding by instinct and not realizing it. We never see him glowing like Dalinar does though, that I can recall at least. This could go back to the idea that Dalinar is simply strong enough to overcome the blockage made by the gems at the conduits where the Plate is meant to be able to absorb Stormlight. So Elokhar, much like Szeth I would imagine, is having an internal battle which he doesn't know how to fight. His innate Surgebinding abilities want to infuse him with Stormlight to make him a better fighter, but due to the blockage he is causing himself more harm than good.

RE: Why the armor doesn't glow now;

I feel as if this could be similar to the way a laptop works. When the laptop is plugged into the wall the keyboard is backlit, the screen is bright, it uses all of the processing power it has available to it. When it's on battery, the backlighting for the keyboard shuts off, the screen dims, processing is throttled to conserve battery life. Plate appears to work in this fashion. We see that when someone begins to run out of the Stormlight reserves in their gems the Plate slowly gets weaker instead of instantaneously shutting off.

The sun beat down upon him, baking him as he fought. He was so tired. It hadn’t been long since Sadeas’s betrayal, not as time was counted in battles. But Dalinar had pushed himself hard, staying at the very front, fighting side by side with Adolin. His Plate had lost much Stormlight. It was growing heavier, and lent him less power with each swing. Soon it would weigh him down, slowing him so the Parshendi could swarm over him.

RE: Brandon's quote;

The way in which Plate gets its abilities could be similar to the way in which the Dor works. The power is there, but held back by something and requires a key, in this example an Aon, in order to be released.

RE: Gems as keys to the Stormlight;

Gems are an excellent way to store Stormlight, but that doesn't mean they are a good conduit for it. So a gem can be used to access the locked away Stormlight the Plate can reach. They however aren't very effective. This could be similar to the way a corrected Aon would work (Elantris spoilers) but only kind of to access the Dor. The Aons only half worked because they could only draw so much Dor at a time because it was being blocked by the larger Aon's flaws.

RE: Why use a straw when you've got a fire hose;

I don't feel like the Plate itself can access the Stormlight which is locked away unless it has a tool to do so. We currently see the Plate using gems to gain access to Stormlight, but in small amounts of a long period of time. This could be what causes Plate to take so long to regrow. It's stuck in reserve mode, much like our laptop that isn't plugged into the wall. The Plate wants to use the Stormlight from the gems, but also wants that Stormlight to last as long as possible.

The long trek back across the plateaus had given him time to think. His insides were still a tempest of emotions. He flexed his left hand as he rode; it was now encased by a blue-painted Shardplate gauntlet borrowed from Adolin. It would take days to regrow Dalinar’s own gauntlet. Longer, if the Parshendi tried to grow a full suit from the one he had left. They would fail, so long as Dalinar’s armorers fed Stormlight to his suit. The abandoned gauntlet would degrade and crumble to dust, a new one growing for Dalinar.

For now, he wore Adolin’s. They had collected all of the infused gemstones among his twenty-six hundred men and used that Stormlight to recharge and reinforce his armor. It was still scarred with cracks. Healing as much damage as it had sustained would take days, but the Plate was in fighting shape again, if it came to that.

From this we can infer that the Plate will just keep feeding and feeding on the Stormlight until it is in full repair. It also tells us that both parts of the Plate will try to feed on the Stormlight, trying to correct itself instead of say allowing itself to dissipate and reform to where its owner is.

Taking that into consideration I feel like a person, when the gems aren't in the way, infused with Stormlight makes a much better conduit for the Stormlight. In fact it is basically stated on the numerous occasions where it talks about people leaking Stormlight all over the place. We also don't ever see a limit to how much Stormlight a person can hold at any given time. This type of huge conductivity could provide a HUGE amount of Stormlight for the Plate to use at any given time.

Quickly regarding gems v. people. Gems appear to act like batteries, where people feel more like a wire. Batteries are great and all, but stacking a bunch of batteries in a line to get the electricity from point A to point B would be terribly inefficient, but adding wire in between makes it a lot more effective.

With a proper conduit to use to access this Locked away Stormlight both the Surgebinder and the Plate now can use a much larger storage of Stormlight.

Now we get to some crazy ideas;

RE: Instant generation of pieces of Plate;

We see Plate seemingly appear and disappear at the will of its wearer in Dalinar's visions. The connection created between the Plate and wearer by the Stormlight could lend them some dominion over its nature, granting them the ability to dismiss pieces (or potentially the whole set) in much the same way they do the Blade. With this much faster access to much larger amounts of Stormlight, the Plate could be regrown instantaneously. Perhaps the only reason Plate doesn't provide this function at the moment is that it can tell it won't have access to the Stormlight to grow back instantly so it refuses to do so.

Dalinar lay stunned. This was unlike any Shardbearer he had ever seen. The Plate glowed with an even blue light, and glyphs—some familiar, others not—were etched into the metal. They trailed blue vapor.

The female Shardbearer turned to Dalinar. She had her helm on now. When had she put it on?

“Well,” a strong voice said, “I must say that I’ve never before had the pleasure of fighting alongside a comrade with such…unconventional means.”

Dalinar turned to find the male Shardbearer regarding him. Where had the man’s helm gone? The Shardbearer stood with his Blade resting on his armored shoulder, and he inspected Dalinar with eyes of such bright blue, they were almost white. Were those eyes actually glowing, leaking Stormlight?

“So let it be,” Szeth said, breathing deeply, sucking in the Stormlight of the many gemstones tied in the pouches at his waist. The Light began to rage within him, like a highstorm in his chest, burning and screaming. He breathed in more than he’d ever held before, holding it until he was barely able to keep the Stormlight from ripping him apart.

Holding his breath, he clung to the Stormlight. He could still feel it leaking out. Stormlight could be held for only a short time, a few minutes at most. It leaked away, the human body too porous a container. He had heard that the Voidbringers could hold it in perfectly. But, then, did they even exist? His punishment declared that they didn’t. His honor demanded that they did.

Afire with holy energy, Szeth turned to the guards. They could see that he was leaking Stormlight, wisps of it curling from his skin like luminescent smoke. The lead guard squinted, frowning. Szeth was sure the man had never seen anything like it before. As far as he knew, Szeth had killed every stonewalker who had ever seen what he could do

Now we see how Stormlight leaks from the Glyphs, and also from the KR's eyes, but it doesn't seem to be the massive flow of Stormlight we commonly see from Szeth. Szeth also mentions that Voidbringers (who were the KR's enemies and many assume were analogous to KR) could hold Stormlight perfectly. Now this could just be an exaggeration, but it appears someone wearing Plate can hold onto Stormlight much better than someone without it.

Szeth here also seems to hint at a potential cap for how much Stormlight a person can hold, saying it feels like his body is going to tear apart. Plate could potentially increase this limit by acting as a buffer.

Now for the craziest idea I have;

We never see the KR absorbing Light from gems in the way that is common now. We also don't see a KR running out of Stormlight. (At least not that I can remember in either case.) This could just be happenstance, but what if a Surgebinder can use the Plate and it's conduits to access this locked away Stormlight? This could negate the need for storing Stormlight in gems and provide a HUGE advantage to whomever figures it out first.

OK... I'm done being a crackpot theorist.... for now. xD

Edited September 11, 2013 by Miyabi

[Kurkistan]

That's a lot of theorizing.

I agree with most of it, though I doubt that the KR are in the habit of casually destroying and regrouping parts of their plate. Dismissal/summoning, like with Blades, seems more likely: people don't destroy and recreate their Blades, they just send them away and retrieve them. If the KR could instantly regrow Plate then they probably would have done so in their battle in Star Fall, instead of allowing it to remain cracked for any length of time.

As to utilizing the Stormlight in their Plate, I believe I suggested that in my thread, and I agree that it would be awesome.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Miyabi]

I agree with most of it, though I doubt that the KR are in the habit of casually destroying and regrouping parts of their plate. Dismissal/summoning, like with Blades, seems more likely: people don't destroy and recreate their Blades, they just send them away and retrieve them. If the KR could instantly regrow Plate then they probably would have done so in their battle in Star Fall, instead of allowing it to remain cracked for any length of time.

You are probably right here. I just got really caught up in my theorycrafting. xD

Maybe it's something along the lines of requiring Stormlight to dismiss and bring them back? Who am I kidding, I have no idea. lol.

[Gloom]

Some observations about Kaladin and Szeth.

 

Kaladin is stronger than Szeth NOW. Most of the book, I would have put Szeth as the stronger surgebinder, or at least as equally strong, and Kaladin as the better fighter. This changed when Kaladin accepted the first ideal just before getting hammered with a hundred arrows. This was the point at which Kaladin became stronger than Szeth, and capable of holding stormlight longer and better than Szeth. This was improved again a short time later when battle was joined and Kaladin accepted the second ideal.

 

Some observations about the Recreance.

 

As the KR removed their Plate, it stopped glowing, but so did their Blades. I think there is a link between a KR and their Shards. They can't function to full capacity unless the link exists. I don't know that any old surgebinder can wear a set of Plate without gems and infuse it, it may be true, but we lack sufficient data to prove this one way or the other because we never saw this happen in a vision yet.

[Miyabi]

As the KR removed their Plate, it stopped glowing, but so did their Blades. I think there is a link between a KR and their Shards. They can't function to full capacity unless the link exists. I don't know that any old surgebinder can wear a set of Plate without gems and infuse it, it may be true, but we lack sufficient data to prove this one way or the other because we never saw this happen in a vision yet.

I am more than inclined to agree when it comes to the Blade. I think the Plate might be a different thing all together. The Plate may have dimmed due to the lack of Stormlight being released from the KR, and the Blades due to the broken Oath to their Spren.

When Syl freaks out it appears to only be about the Blade and isn't related to the Plate, so I feel there is some form of distinction here.

[Scriptorian]

I definitely think we are missing something substantial in the way shardplate/blade work, something relate to the Radiants I'm thinking.

 

There do appear to be some discrepancies between how shardblades and shardplate operate. For instance, blades appear to be self-contained energy sources, whereas plate requires stormlight to function. Also, blades will cut through anything inanimate, while plate is only mostly indestructible, so there is some fundamental difference in their design principle.

 

Also, how on Roshar would Szeth know that shardplate interferes with his Surgebinding unless he had tried a suite on? Where do the Stone Shamans get all of these storming artifacts?!

[hoser]

Some observations about Kaladin and Szeth.

 

Kaladin is stronger than Szeth NOW. Most of the book, I would have put Szeth as the stronger surgebinder, or at least as equally strong, and Kaladin as the better fighter. This changed when Kaladin accepted the first ideal just before getting hammered with a hundred arrows. This was the point at which Kaladin became stronger than Szeth, and capable of holding stormlight longer and better than Szeth. This was improved again a short time later when battle was joined and Kaladin accepted the second ideal.

FWIW, in the canyon before he stashed the armor under the bridge (which is when I think he accepted the first ideal, although it was really a process), Kaladin observes that he can hold the stormlight for something like a 1/4 hour.  Szeth observes in the beginning that he can hold it for only a few minutes.  So, although untrained, Kaladin showed significantly greater ability with stormlight from almost the minute he started consciously using it. 

[Shardlet]

I think whether Sezth or Kaladin is the better fighter is debatable.  To be sure both are very skilled.  Consider that Szeth shows a remarkable mental agility and adaptability which allows him to instantly shift his directional perceptions to correspond to his lashings.  I expect that this ability would enable him to adapt quickly to unexpected changesas well as the ebb and flow of battle.  Take away Szeth's shardblade and give him a spear and set him against Kaladin at the end of TWoK and I would still give the advantage to Szeth.

[Scriptorian]

As of Wok, Kaladin has no knowledge of basic lashing, giving Szeth a huge advantage. All he'd have to do is touch Kaladin once and Lash him to the moon.

 

Beyond that, Szeth simply has more experience fighting supernatural opponents. Combined with his shardblade, Kaladin would be extremely hard pressed to hold his own against Szeth, even with stronger stormlight. But this is just how it stands at the end of Wok, so things could change in the meanwhile.

[Miyabi]

WoB is that Kaladin was stronger than Szeth. Someone mentioned it and he said something along the lines of "I was wondering when someone would notice that."

[Kurkistan]

That WoB was purely in the context of Stormlight retention/use, not fighting ability.

[Shardlet]

Kaladin has stronger surgebinding capability.  But Szeth kicks his trash for experience (right now).

[Kurkistan]

Yes, I am a ninja.

[Shardlet]

Half ninja in this case.  I fleshed it out more.

[Gloom]

FWIW, in the canyon before he stashed the armor under the bridge (which is when I think he accepted the first ideal, although it was really a process), Kaladin observes that he can hold the stormlight for something like a 1/4 hour.  Szeth observes in the beginning that he can hold it for only a few minutes.  So, although untrained, Kaladin showed significantly greater ability with stormlight from almost the minute he started consciously using it. 

 

I posted this somewhere, and it's gone, so just for the sake of clarity, I'll repost it here in regards to the First Ideal.

 

"I owe you nothing Kholin"

And his father's voice seemed to whisper a reply. Somebody has to start, son. Somebody has to step forward and do what is right, because it is right. If nobody starts, then others cannot follow.

Dalinar had come to help Kaladin's men, attacking those archers and saving Bridge Four.

The lighteyes don't care about life, Lirin had said. So I must. So we must. So you must....

Life before death.

I've failed so often. I've been knocked to the ground and trod upon.

Strength before weakness.

This would be death I'd lead my friends to...

Journey before destination.

...death, and what is right.

"We have to go back," Kaladin said softly. "Storm it, we have to go back."

[skip paragraph]

Kaladin looked up and sucked in a deep breath. Stormlight rushed into him like a wave, as if he'd put his lips into a highstorm and drawn it into himself.

 

As you can see, Kaladin wasn't holding Stormlight at the time he committed to the First Ideal, but the difference was notable the next time he did.

 

As far as the strength of Kaladins investiture in comparison to Szeth, consider me convinced.

[hoser]

Gloom, I believe that you have quoted a crux moment in Kaladin's development.  As I see it, though, it rehashes and extends the developments of Chapter 59.  In Chapter 59 "An Honor", Kaladin decides to accept his magical power and use it, no matter where it leads.  There are two relevant sections sandwiched around a Chasmfiend sighting (I guess Brandon thought we needed some excitement).

 

The section you quote above is where he extends the first ideal into the second.  He goes from being a magic user who will help his team to being a magic user who will fight for those who need protecting, essentially the second ideal.  Dalinar's army are those who need protecting.  Once he committed to the second ideal in his actions, the words came to him, along with the increased power. 

[Shardlet]

I am inclined to agree with Gloom on this one.  He may have made a commitment of sorts as you suggested, but that was outside of any real circumstances and so was largely an academic acceptance, if you will.  The quote from Gloom was a decision point.  When it counts, will he make the commitment?  He was walking away.  He had not yet internalized the first ideal yet.  He warred with it and in the end chose to offer his life and the lives of those he cared about to the first ideal.  I think this is the point that he truly reached the first ideal, though it was not verbally spoken.  That is the nagging aspect of it, but the scene you are talking about Hoser doesn't offer much in regard to that problem either.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Shardlet

[Crysanja]

i dont remember when Kaladin said it about holding the stormlight.

but there could be a connection to the parshendi-carcasse armor and holding the stormlight better.

 

there are some clues that parshendi can use highstorms/(stormlight?) in some way with their bodies to transform. 

 

maybe parshendi could hold stormlight much better...

 

just guessing =)

[valgerth]

Now in my mind this allows for two possible major implications:

1; The Plate and Blade are created through the Investiture through some form of Stormlight manipulation.

2; Or that there is someway to release the Stormlight that is infused with the Plate in order to achieve the Plate we see in Dalinar's vision, whether that happens because of the glyphs he sees or the glyphs are a side-effect of the Stormlight leaking from the Plate I have no idea.

 

This is much like a theory I had, that I think I mentioned in a discussion once. We've established that the point at which stormlight is infused in gemstones is a fixed point during the highstorm, and not constant. This would imply that it basically fills to capacity any gemstone that is out there. You also notice when Kaladin is hung out in the highstorm, he seems to be able to sense that power as it passes. I believe that the original Blades and Plate were the last step of becoming a KR by making your own set. Think of it kind of like how a Jedi has to make his own lightsaber. I think that an KR in training would have to go out into the highstorm, and when that moment hit, if they truly embodied their 5 ideals, they could breath in and effectively create the plate and blade out of thin air, or imbue that power in a standard set of plate and blade. As such, I think the variations in style were the personal touch of the KR. It makes me wonder if Kaladin could make a Shardspear as his shardblade, since that is what he is trained in.

[Miyabi]

This is much like a theory I had, that I think I mentioned in a discussion once. We've established that the point at which stormlight is infused in gemstones is a fixed point during the highstorm, and not constant. This would imply that it basically fills to capacity any gemstone that is out there. You also notice when Kaladin is hung out in the highstorm, he seems to be able to sense that power as it passes. I believe that the original Blades and Plate were the last step of becoming a KR by making your own set. Think of it kind of like how a Jedi has to make his own lightsaber. I think that an KR in training would have to go out into the highstorm, and when that moment hit, if they truly embodied their 5 ideals, they could breath in and effectively create the plate and blade out of thin air, or imbue that power in a standard set of plate and blade. As such, I think the variations in style were the personal touch of the KR. It makes me wonder if Kaladin could make a Shardspear as his shardblade, since that is what he is trained in.

I really like this idea, especially considering it conforms to what Brandon said about them already have Stormlight locked away.

[marianmi]

Since the shards are invested objects, it would make sense to start like normal objects.

So you get a normal set of blade and armour, and start investing them (yourself).

Since Kaladin gets better at investing objects after speaking the first ideal (stormlight works better for him), I would say you would need to be at a certain "level" (maybe after last ideal) in order to be capable of investing the shards. This makes a lot of sense to me.

 

I find the gems = batteries idea pretty good. But I can't figure out where the plated KR get their stormlight from. I see them having access to a LOT of stormlight, and leaking it into the plate, which then is powered to do the awesomeness.

 

* But where do they get it from?

* And why do the KR plate has glyphs?

* And how is the sword "powered" (since it was also glowing)?

* And why does the sword need to be powered? What can it do that we haven't seen?

 

A theory is that, using the KR's spren and the glyphs, the plate actually is the one that has a permanent connection to the power source (power from another realm). Then the KR draws stormlight from the plate, and not the other way around.

[Aether]

This is much like a theory I had, that I think I mentioned in a discussion once. We've established that the point at which stormlight is infused in gemstones is a fixed point during the highstorm, and not constant. This would imply that it basically fills to capacity any gemstone that is out there. You also notice when Kaladin is hung out in the highstorm, he seems to be able to sense that power as it passes. I believe that the original Blades and Plate were the last step of becoming a KR by making your own set. Think of it kind of like how a Jedi has to make his own lightsaber. I think that an KR in training would have to go out into the highstorm, and when that moment hit, if they truly embodied their 5 ideals, they could breath in and effectively create the plate and blade out of thin air, or imbue that power in a standard set of plate and blade. As such, I think the variations in style were the personal touch of the KR. It makes me wonder if Kaladin could make a Shardspear as his shardblade, since that is what he is trained in.

Upvote for this thought. There might not be much evidence for it, but I like the sound and awesomeness of it.