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[Guest]

I disagree. I think your post was quite reasonable and the advice was solid.

 

Understanding the psychology of other parties in a situation can be essential to finding a good solution. A rational explanation of why someone might be struggling to accept something, coupled with practical advice on what to do to help them understand and accept it makes for a valuable post in my estimation. Sure sympathy, commiseration and pug pics are nice but I think the posts in this thread that hold the most value are those that do more than that.

 

While I of course do agree with you, which is essentially why I wrote the post in the first place, such advice are useless if the other parties is not willing to hear it. If others are not interested in figuring out what may be going on in their parents heads, then it is useless and perceived as aggressive, if not downright unsympathetic. I made the mistake to think it would be well received. I made a mistake I made all too often on parental forum: thinking people want a workable solution. They often don't, they just want to talk about it.

 

 

Pestis appears to be reacting against the idea that the basic parental psychology you outlined means that it's perfectly ok for them to act that way and no efforts should be made on their part to change, which, unless I totally misunderstood, is not what you were saying. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I read you weren't dismissing it as a problem, but rather acknowledging the problem, explaining a likely cause for it and suggesting a method for dealing with it.

 

There are a lot of things going on in a parents head before it can understand their child may need help and one of them is accepting this may be true. Parents are people, human beings and they sure aren't perfect. The very first lesson parenthood will teach you is the harshest one of all: despite all your smart talk on how you aren't going to screw it up like your unqualified parents, the first thing you do is screwing it up. It is a very humbling experience to finally figure out your parents just did what they thought was best and while they may have made a mistake, they still tried.

 

The first step to solving a problem is to acknowledge there is a problem, which often is the most difficult of steps, for many people. The basic parental psychology I tried to outline was that children weren't, unfortunately, not born with a user manual and figuring what is wrong with your kid is not as obvious as it seems. Is he really depressed or is it just typical teenage moodiness? Aren't teenagers all supposed to be angry and confrontational? Gee how was I at that age..... I don't remember so much  Mom, how was I that age? Huh... Fine I think, I don't remember so much   Alright, what did that book we bought 10 years ago said on the subject again? Oh crap, it stops at 12 years old. This a subset of things that may be going on in a parent's head.

 

Bottom line is adults can be, on average, more responsive when talked by another adult who can help them see the issues without having to deal with the emotive complexity parent/children relationships tend to have.

 

 

Put simply, we (I think I speak on behalf of others here too) appreciate the perspective, insight and advice you post here Maxal

 

Thanks   

 

However, if whatever piece of advice I feel may be appropriate generate angry venting out posts in a thread that is supposed to be for helping  , then I will keep them to myself, in the future, unless someone directly wants to hear about it.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

While I of course do agree with you, which is essentially why I wrote the post in the first place, such advice are useless if the other parties is not willing to hear it. If others are not interested in figuring out what may be going on in their parents heads, then it is useless and perceived as aggressive, if not downright unsympathetic. I made the mistake to think it would be well received. I made a mistake I made all too often on parental forum: thinking people want a workable solution. They often don't, they just want to talk about it.

There are a lot of things going on in a parents head before it can understand their child may need help and one of them is accepting this may be true. Parents are people, human beings and they sure aren't perfect. The very first lesson parenthood will teach you is the harshest one of all: despite all your smart talk on how you aren't going to screw it up like your unqualified parents, the first thing you do is screwing it up. It is a very humbling experience to finally figure out your parents just did what they thought was best and while they may have made a mistake, they still tried.

The first step to solving a problem is to acknowledge there is a problem, which often is the most difficult of steps, for many people. The basic parental psychology I tried to outline was that children weren't, unfortunately, not born with a user manual and figuring what is wrong with your kid is not as obvious as it seems. Is he really depressed or is it just typical teenage moodiness? Aren't teenagers all supposed to be angry and confrontational? Gee how was I at that age..... I don't remember so much Mom, how was I that age? Huh... Fine I think, I don't remember so much Alright, what did that book we bought 10 years ago said on the subject again? Oh crap, it stops at 12 years old. This a subset of things that may be going on in a parent's head.

Bottom line is adults can be, on average, more responsive when talked by another adult who can help them see the issues without having to deal with the emotive complexity parent/children relationships tend to have.

Thanks

However, if whatever piece of advice I feel may be appropriate generate angry venting out posts in a thread that is supposed to be for helping , then I will keep them to myself, in the future, unless someone directly wants to hear about it.

Speaking from experience, I'd say that talking about a problem can be a solution, or the beginning of one. I don't know all the nuances of Pestis' situation, but in mine, part of the problem was that my parents didn't want to talk about my depression, because they refused to acknowledge it existed. They're the sort who'll see a commercial for antidepressants (a fairly common thing here in the US) and sarcastically say "Well, maybe you should try being happy before you get all hopped up on pills." They've made it clear that they believe depression is a choice--and a selfish one at that, because it's a choice affecting behavior, which negatively affects them.

For me, having someone acknowledge that depression is real, that I had it, and that it wasn't my fault was in itself a solution to part of the problem. Having my experiences validated was huge.

I haven't seen you in your daily life, but from what you've posted about your family on here, I think you're a good parent. You seem like the type who would, given evidence that a child's depression was something more than teenage moodiness, do anything you could to help. My parents aren't like that. Even when the therapist my mom took me said she thought I had mild depression, my mom refused to believe depression was a real thing. She clung to her belief that I was choosing to be miserable, and when it got worse, she clung to her belief that I was doing it on purpose. All this did was make me feel guilt and shame on top of the misery, melding into a belief that I didn't deserve help.

You're right--parents should help their teens, should be able to sort through what's moodiness and what's not, and should be inclined to work with professionals to decide on the best solution to their child's problem. You, from everything I've seen on here, are the type of parent who I wish I'd had back during the worst of my depression. But my parents weren't that sort.

[RippleGylf she/her]

However, if whatever piece of advice I feel may be appropriate generate angry venting out posts in a thread that is supposed to be for helping  , then I will keep them to myself, in the future, unless someone directly wants to hear about it.

 

I appreciate your advice.   Thank you. I can see where she's coming from, I just wish my mom would try to understand me a bit better. I know that parents can't read minds, but it wouldn't hurt her to just try to understand where I'm coming from, either. Been feeling a bit better lately. Thanks to all of you for just listening. 

[Sarcasm she/her]

Thanks.

Aaaannnnd they've moved over to Random Stuff.

I SEE YOUR DOWNVOTES, GUY.

I am SO SORRY. I accidentally downvoted one of your posts the other day...    We need an undo button! 

[Rubix he/him]

I am SO SORRY. I accidentally downvoted one of your posts the other day...    We need an undo button! 

 

Coming in the next update. 

 

Going forward, everyone please refrain from getting this thread off topic by talking about rep.

[Mistrunner]

Music snobby rant ahead!

In the church we're in now (after the move), the organist has been just awful. Well, he isn't terrible at playing, exactly, but he makes a lot of mistakes and for prelude literally pulls out all the stops on the organ. For those who don't know, that means it's really, really loud. It feels like the organ is violently attacking you when it should be reverent, soft music.

Skip to choir practice. Apparently the person called as the music chair only really does the choir at Christmas. We're singing hymns straight out of the hymn book and a few songs out of the Children's Songbook. Just straight, no arrangements, nothing.

The choir director/music chair can't read music.

When the men were practicing, they were just doing the melody, and a few asked if they should try to do parts. She replied, "No parts for now, just harmony."

0.o

The women went to another room to practice the number we were singing. It was really good. We had a very accomplished lady on piano who actually works with youth on vocal stuff. She was great- she added in some dynamics, made sure everybody was singing straight and together, etc. then we went back in for the runthrough with the pianist who will be doing it for the performance. This is the same guy who plays organ. It was bad.

Apparently whenever other people play organ or piano for church things he gets really upset and once stormed out of the chapel. Since that happened everyone's walked on eggshells around him and let him play whenever he wants, which is always.

Ugh. It's terrible. There are several people in the ward who can play very well, but they can't because they have to be nice to this one person who can't let other people can play sometimes.

Ugh.

[+Slowswift]

Ouch. That sucks. Is it an electric organ, or real pipes, out of curiosity?

[Mistrunner]

Ouch. That sucks. Is it an electric organ, or real pipes, out of curiosity?

Electric, like most are.

[+Slowswift]

Either way, I'm so sorry you have a sucky music program.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

I think the last time I attended a church with an organ, pipe or electric, was in North Carolina back when I was….seven or eight, I think. Since then, my family has gone to churches that use pianos, but usually ones with drums, electric guitars and bass. Of course, they didn't play anything more "out there" than the sort of mainstream worship music you hear on the radio, but yeah, I haven't been to a church with an actual organ for quite some time. 

[Kaymyth she/her]

Music snobby rant ahead!

In the church we're in now (after the move), the organist has been just awful. Well, he isn't terrible at playing, exactly, but he makes a lot of mistakes and for prelude literally pulls out all the stops on the organ. For those who don't know, that means it's really, really loud. It feels like the organ is violently attacking you when it should be reverent, soft music.

Skip to choir practice. Apparently the person called as the music chair only really does the choir at Christmas. We're singing hymns straight out of the hymn book and a few songs out of the Children's Songbook. Just straight, no arrangements, nothing.

The choir director/music chair can't read music.

When the men were practicing, they were just doing the melody, and a few asked if they should try to do parts. She replied, "No parts for now, just harmony."

0.o

The women went to another room to practice the number we were singing. It was really good. We had a very accomplished lady on piano who actually works with youth on vocal stuff. She was great- she added in some dynamics, made sure everybody was singing straight and together, etc. then we went back in for the runthrough with the pianist who will be doing it for the performance. This is the same guy who plays organ. It was bad.

Apparently whenever other people play organ or piano for church things he gets really upset and once stormed out of the chapel. Since that happened everyone's walked on eggshells around him and let him play whenever he wants, which is always.

Ugh. It's terrible. There are several people in the ward who can play very well, but they can't because they have to be nice to this one person who can't let other people can play sometimes.

Ugh.

 

Erk.

 

I think the last time I attended a church with an organ, pipe or electric, was in North Carolina back when I was….seven or eight, I think. Since then, my family has gone to churches that use pianos, but usually ones with drums, electric guitars and bass. Of course, they didn't play anything more "out there" than the sort of mainstream worship music you hear on the radio, but yeah, I haven't been to a church with an actual organ for quite some time. 

 

When I was in college, the music conservatory had this biiiig old pipe organ in the recital hall.  It was missing a pipe.  The story went that the previous year, one of the students had cursed up a storm on the stage and the conservatory ghost had gotten offended and tossed the pipe past the girl, missing her by a few inches.  (I don't see any way the thing could have just fallen over.  There were unbroken support beams across the space where it used to sit.)

 

The directive that then passed from upperclassmen to freshman was, "Don't curse in the conservatory.  If you do it accidentally, apologize to Opal immediately.  Seriously.  We're not kidding."

Edited November 22, 2015 by Kaymyth

[Elbereth she/her]

Music snobby rant ahead!

In the church we're in now (after the move), the organist has been just awful. Well, he isn't terrible at playing, exactly, but he makes a lot of mistakes and for prelude literally pulls out all the stops on the organ. For those who don't know, that means it's really, really loud. It feels like the organ is violently attacking you when it should be reverent, soft music.

Skip to choir practice. Apparently the person called as the music chair only really does the choir at Christmas. We're singing hymns straight out of the hymn book and a few songs out of the Children's Songbook. Just straight, no arrangements, nothing.

The choir director/music chair can't read music.

When the men were practicing, they were just doing the melody, and a few asked if they should try to do parts. She replied, "No parts for now, just harmony."

0.o

The women went to another room to practice the number we were singing. It was really good. We had a very accomplished lady on piano who actually works with youth on vocal stuff. She was great- she added in some dynamics, made sure everybody was singing straight and together, etc. then we went back in for the runthrough with the pianist who will be doing it for the performance. This is the same guy who plays organ. It was bad.

Apparently whenever other people play organ or piano for church things he gets really upset and once stormed out of the chapel. Since that happened everyone's walked on eggshells around him and let him play whenever he wants, which is always.

Ugh. It's terrible. There are several people in the ward who can play very well, but they can't because they have to be nice to this one person who can't let other people can play sometimes.

Ugh.

What? H-how? How are either of those people still doing music? I would hate that. Our organist is wonderful, mostly. I mean, he's a great piano and organ player, and he's even teaching my sister how to play organ, but... There's a saying among pianists/organists. "You can be a great improviser, or you can be a great accompanist." Our organist is a great improviser. Unfortunately, he improvises all the time. Even when he's accompanying five year old violinists who are used to playing with a recording that's always the same. The violin teacher now has my sister accompany them, because the organist just can't.

[Briar King]

I now know what my parents went through when I got to the loud music phase blasting Green Day, Pearl Jam etc in my room on my CD player....

Except now my kids have smart devices and I'm currently having to put up with some Nay Nay crap blasting away not 10 ft behind me while I'm playing Destiny. So annoying plus how is this junk music? Again this goes back to above cause I'm sure they thought the same thing about Green Day, Smashing Pumpkins, etc.

[Delightful]

Belgian justice minister on terror attacks:

. “It’s no longer synagogues or the Jewish museums or police stations, it’s mass gatherings and public places,” he said.

.

So.....Jewish targets aren't part of the public? What are we, chopped liver?

Edited November 23, 2015 by Delightful

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

Belgian justice minister on terror attacks:

.

So.....Jewish targets aren't part of the public? What are we, chopped liver?

source

 

So Belgium has…what, a "Jewish public" and a "public public"? What are the prereqs for being part of the "public public"? Is there a "private public" in Belgium somewhere? 

 

….I only make lame jokes because the implications in that quote are pretty disturbing.  

[Delightful]

So Belgium has…what, a "Jewish public" and a "public public"? What are the prereqs for being part of the "public public"? Is there a "private public" in Belgium somewhere?

….I only make lame jokes because the implications in that quote are pretty disturbing.

I read that as sarcasm, not as a joke.

First they came for the Jews and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for everyone else and holy rust! There's this thing called terror! Panic! Lock down the city! The world is under attack!

......:/

[Delightful]

Excuse the double post please;

I came across this very useful advice I think could help us all. (I personally have it saved in my phone)

Edited November 23, 2015 by Delightful

[Voidus]

So I take oxycodone for my cluster headaches (Reluctantly since it makes me feel weird all day afterwards) and now I'm down to the last three which means I now need to book an appointment with the doctors and try to avoid feeling like they'll just kick me out as a drugseeker or something. Which is if I can even get an appointment in time and the pharmacy is actually stocked because otherwise I have to go through this with no medication which is just about the worst thing ever and the anxiety of that is going to destroy all the progress I've been making with managing my anxiety and depression lately and now I'm hyperventilating and laugh-crying.

[Delightful]

So I take oxycodone for my cluster headaches (Reluctantly since it makes me feel weird all day afterwards) and now I'm down to the last three which means I now need to book an appointment with the doctors and try to avoid feeling like they'll just kick me out as a drugseeker or something. Which is if I can even get an appointment in time and the pharmacy is actually stocked because otherwise I have to go through this with no medication which is just about the worst thing ever and the anxiety of that is going to destroy all the progress I've been making with managing my anxiety and depression lately and now I'm hyperventilating and laugh-crying.

Noooooooo *hugs*

Next time try get more medication with a bigger buffer until when you're going to run out?

[Voidus]

Noooooooo *hugs*

Next time try get more medication with a bigger buffer until when you're going to run out?

Yeah, lesson learned. This pack was mostly for the last cluster so it only had a few left, I just try not to think about it much so I forgot to stock up again.

I'm hesitant to ask for a bigger script because it's a controlled substance and I also worry about what will happen if I have that much at hand, it doesn't completely eliminate the pain it just helps me focus on it less, so if I had a really really bad attack some day I worry that I might do something really really stupid to make it stop.

[Delightful]

So Belgium has…what, a "Jewish public" and a "public public"? What are the prereqs for being part of the "public public"? Is there a "private public" in Belgium somewhere?

….I only make lame jokes because the implications in that quote are pretty disturbing.

on the same note....

What's worse is that this has happened before. Americans killed overseas, the government jumps up and down. American Israelis or American Jews, nothing.

Oh, and the foreign minister of Sweden practically blamed the Paris attacks on Israel.

Hence, nothing changes and the world sucks.

Except you guys. I like you guys.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

on the same note....

What's worse is that this has happened before. Americans killed overseas, the government jumps up and down. American Israelis or American Jews, nothing.

Oh, and the foreign minister of Sweden practically blamed the Paris attacks on Israel.

Hence, nothing changes and the world sucks.

Except you guys. I like you guys.

Israel? But...but what did Israel have to do with....

*sigh*

I don't get it.

Edited November 23, 2015 by TwiLyghtSansSparkles

[Delightful]

Israel? But...but what did Israel have to do with....

*sigh*

I don't get it.

Her logic (and btw I don't believe much of this is fact) is apparently something like:

"Israel oppresses Palestinians. Palestinians become radical. Middle East becomes radical. Middle Eastern radicals attacks Paris "

Which is so full of holes that there's practically nothing there holding the holes together.

It *doesn't* make sense. It's good old fashioned "we don't like this. Hey, let's blame the Jews! Great excuse for a pogrom!"

[+Slowswift]

Sigh. It pisses me off whenever people blame the Jews. Specifically if your argument is "they killed Jesus." Well, not all of them! And did you even read the Bible? Remember the part where he forgives them all?

 

(I know that's not the only reason people hate Jews, but it's the one that makes me the most angry.)

 

*grumble, grumble, grumble*

Edited November 23, 2015 by Slowswift

[Delightful]

Not that I'm in any way an expert on the topic, but didn't the Romans kill Jesus?

It's irrational and it's easy scapegoating and avoiding responsibility and it's plain irrational.

As some British dude named Lloyd Alexander put it:

Of all the extreme fanaticism that plays havoc in man’s nature, there is none as irrational as anti-Semitism. The Jews cannot vindicate themselves in the eyes of these fanatics. If the Jews are rich, they are victims of theft and extortion. If they are poor, they are victims of ridicule. If they take sides in a war, it is because they wish to gain advantage from the spilling of non-Jewish blood. If they espouse peace, it is because they are scared and anxious by nature or traitors to their country. If the Jew dwells in a foreign land he is persecuted and expelled. If he wishes to return to his own land, he is prevented from doing so.

Edit: and the other Middle Ages excuse was "they're killing Christian babies to bake their blood into matzah!"

Which despite being horrific and false, it doesn't even make sense. We're specifically not allowed to eat blood. Matzah can literally only be made of flour and water.

And today that's morphed into "Israel (ie, the Jewish country) is oppressing Palestinians and therefore it's legit when Israelis are murdered in the streets by terrorists and we have to pressure Israel into not defending themselves from missiles raining down from Gaza or Lebanon. And oh, let's try boycott them as well because that's fun." (Until they realise Israel invented cherry tomatoes and the Intel chip and a thousand other things they use daily, and then things get hard).

And a few months ago the boycott movement dropped all pretenses that it's about Israelis, and tried to stop an American Jewish performer from performing at a music festival in....Spain I think.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Delightful