02ranger Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 More on the Renarin is autistic thing...if he is less that aspergers on the spectrum then it is really very close to a normal functioning human. With that being said we already know that stormlight can heal anything short of a crushing blow to the skull and we have seen that even that is tenuous becasue when Szeth is attacking Gavilar he gets his face punched in which is generally pretty crushing to the brain and stormlight healed this wound relatively quickly. With all that being said I think stormlight can heal the neuropathways in the brain if it can repair a "soul." So anything Renarin had previously is probably not a factor any longer.It also really depends on Renarin's image of himself. Kaladin has yet to heal his slave brands because they're still a part of his self-image. I believe there's a WoB that says when Kaladin no longer sees himself as that person, he'll be able to heal his forehead. If Renarin's self-image includes that autism, he won't heal it. I think he healed his eyes cause nobody sees visual issues as part of themselves, but autism would be harder to separate I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivoryblade Posted August 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 Well... We know he was bonding Glys in chapter 14 when he received his Blade, but he had not said any oath as it presumably did not scream. Sorry, but I don’t quite remember seeing mention of him bonding with Glys in chapter 14. Would you mind posting a reference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arondell Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 I think that Renarin's initial(Pre-oath) bond with Glyss formed some time back. I had the impression that all the various nahel bond spren started searching for people to bond with around the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) More on the Renarin is autistic thing...if he is less that aspergers on the spectrum then it is really very close to a normal functioning human. With that being said we already know that stormlight can heal anything short of a crushing blow to the skull and we have seen that even that is tenuous becasue when Szeth is attacking Gavilar he gets his face punched in which is generally pretty crushing to the brain and stormlight healed this wound relatively quickly. With all that being said I think stormlight can heal the neuropathways in the brain if it can repair a "soul." So anything Renarin had previously is probably not a factor any longer.You are assuming mild autism that still allows him to function well when society doens't try to force him to act like a neurotypical is something that needs healing. That would be similar to saying that Stormlight should make Kaladin like drinking with his friends or make Dalinar less rigid or "cure" homosexuality.What is wrong with Renarin not being "normal" if he can still function? Edited August 30, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 I do not think stormlight can heal autism and since both may be linked... I have thus come to doubt Renarin will heal. He may have to learn to live with it and to make best with whatever limitations he has. We all have limitations simply because his are more obvious in the world where he lives does not mean other characters do not have theirs. ? Who's talking about healing the autism? O_O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 Yeah, "healing" is a really problematic, and frankly offensive, topic. One thing I want to make perfectly clear is that with autism there is nothing /to/ be healed, an autistic individual's brain is merely wired differently, it is not wired "wrong". This is not something that Stormlight is going to be able to change, for the same reason Stormlight cannot "fix" Kaladin's depression. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) No, you're probably right. I was just saying that regardless of his personal beliefs he still wouldn't be likely to say anything due to the way the people react to future-telling. I mean, they're so averse to the idea that Shallan comments on games of chance being looked down on because it strayed awfully close to future-telling. (I know there's a better word than future-telling, but I'm having a brain cramp and can't seem to think of it.....) There are probably many factors weighting in when it comes to Renarin... I am actually fishing here and I am unsure as to the clear reason. The truth probably is a mix of all we have said. Sorry, but I don’t quite remember seeing mention of him bonding with Glys in chapter 14. Would you mind posting a reference? When Adolin gave him his new Blade, Renarin initially refused. Adolin insisted and Renarin was forced to take the Blade into his hands. He grimaced as he clearly was uncomfortable. Now, I agree this does not seem to prove much, but much later on, Dalinar tries to bond another Blade and he talks of a feeling of unease. He dismissed it, thinking it was merely him missing his old Blade, but we gather later on it was probably because he was bonding the Stormfather. We have thus reverse engineered, from the Dalinar experience, proto-Radiants in the early stage of bonding a spren feel an unease when holding a Blade. After saying one or two oaths (we are unsure), they start to hear the Blades scream. Therefore, back in chapter 14, Renarin had already started the bonding process with Glys. I have theorized (but I have no concrete proofs) he has been bonding Glys for some time now, at least since WoR. I think that Renarin's initial(Pre-oath) bond with Glyss formed some time back. I had the impression that all the various nahel bond spren started searching for people to bond with around the same time. Those we have seen, the first wave as I like to call them, seem to have started 6 years ago. Renarin may have started the bonding process as a very young teenager, but this is not proven yet. ? Who's talking about healing the autism? O_O I am. According to google (for whatever it is worth), epilepsy and autism as linked. We have already established stormlight would probably not heal his autism. Since both "disabilities" seemed tied to the same factor, if stormlight can't heal one, it can't heal the other. However, this is not proven. I am simply trying to make links here which may or may not exist. Edited August 30, 2015 by maxal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) Maxal brought it up himself though. Epilepsy can be somewhat fixed to some extent, and that's all I actually said in my post. Sorry, but I don’t quite remember seeing mention of him bonding with Glys in chapter 14. Would you mind posting a reference? He was wincing when he caught the blade. Even before bonding Dalinar only "felt wrong" at most. Edited August 30, 2015 by natc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 Maxal brought it up himself though. Epilepsy can be somewhat fixed to some extent, and that's all I actually said in my post. Actually I was working on the basis both may have the same root cause... based on a few things I have read on the Internet. To take lightly, I am not an expert, but it made me wonder if his epilepsy can actually be heal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) Well, maybe the symptoms can be fixed at least? Depends on how autism actually happens in humans. The Roshar species of human at least. Edited August 30, 2015 by natc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansalem Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 Autism is basically just a type of brain. Epilepsy is a type of malfunction of the brain. Let me put it another way: If you were to heal someone's epilepsy, they would still be the same person. If you were to "heal" someone's autism, they would be a different person. Whether stormlight can heal epilepsy is another question, though. Honestly I think it will come down to which one benefits the storytelling the most whether it can or not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 Well, maybe the symptoms can be fixed at least? Depends on how autism actually happens in humans. The Roshar species of human at least. I assume the mechanism must be similar. However, I had did some light research on epilepsy in autistic individuals a few weeks back and I have found there is a correlation. I do not recall all of it, but the prevalence of epilepsy in autistic people is higher than in the "normal" population. I have found several articles stating about 20 to 40% autistic children do develop epilepsy. Therefore, Renarin being epileptic is a clue for his autism. According to the articles and the Internet, both are triggered by the same genes, which is why I am reluctant to think stormlight could heal one and not the other. However, I am not an expert. Anyone googling this stuff would find the same stuff I did: no doubt Brandon did the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Feboris Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 You all are correct, autism is more of a behavioral issue. I sincerely doubt that BS would delve into something as controversial as healing autism. There are so many theories on the cause for autism that it is probably not even worth going into, not all of them involve brain function. I do know that the behaviors associated with autism can be changed through behavioral treatment. I think it would be safe to say that stormlight is unlikely to alter autism. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansalem Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 You all are correct, autism is more of a behavioral issue. I sincerely doubt that BS would delve into something as controversial as healing autism. There are so many theories on the cause for autism that it is probably not even worth going into, not all of them involve brain function. I do know that the behaviors associated with autism can be changed through behavioral treatment. I think it would be safe to say that stormlight is unlikely to alter autism. Agreed. It might heal his epilepsy, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manavortex Posted January 4, 2016 Report Share Posted January 4, 2016 Being autistic myself (not epileptic though) I agree with the faction who doesn't want a cure. Maybe the world could just be a little less.. Chaotic, and overwhelming? That would be nice...? Seriously - by taking autism away you would take that away which makes me the person I am. Even if I got a full-scale healing I would definitely want to keep it, but the glasses would have to go. Epilepsy, however, is nasty and I would not want it. If I recall correctly it is an overload of the brain with electric impulses, which can be somewhat fixed by adding additional 'grounding' in form of gold wires etc..? To stop hijacking the topic, I think that Renarin didn't come out because he already was a misfit. Or, something I remember from my own childhood, maybe he assumed that everyone had a Glys, but since nobody was talking about them, they must be some sort of taboo. (for me that was the fact that I was faking to read facial expressions and give the appropriate reactions, so the whole communication thing required a ton of effort for me just to blend in. I found it incredibly exhausting and always assumed that everyone secretly hated parties because they would have to sleep for the whole next day, but nobody talked about it because that was how it was. Since I know my brain works differently I just stop forcing myself to pretend to enjoy what society deems appropriate, and rather stay at home and read cosmere.) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ninja Yodeler Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 I imagine that Renarin felt very alone in his new powers, possibly even thought he was going crazy. Once others came forward, he knew he wasn't alone. Also, being a Truthwatcher, he could see the future, which Vorinism says is of the Voidbringers. The two combined probably made him keep quiet. Thats exactly what I got from it. He probably figured he was going crazy. And with everyone already thinking his father was losing his mind, probably didnt want to lend any credence to the allegations. I dont think it had anything to do with Adolin. More with the whole futuresight and a little creature following you and talking to you, that nobody else can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Thats exactly what I got from it. He probably figured he was going crazy. And with everyone already thinking his father was losing his mind, probably didnt want to lend any credence to the allegations. I dont think it had anything to do with Adolin. More with the whole futuresight and a little creature following you and talking to you, that nobody else can see. Well, it's not like there aren't tons of the creatures like this around... He must have figured out that it's a spren. So it's not exactly "I am seeing things, I am going crazy" thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Being autistic myself (not epileptic though) I agree with the faction who doesn't want a cure. Maybe the world could just be a little less.. Chaotic, and overwhelming? That would be nice...? Seriously - by taking autism away you would take that away which makes me the person I am. Even if I got a full-scale healing I would definitely want to keep it, but the glasses would have to go. Epilepsy, however, is nasty and I would not want it. If I recall correctly it is an overload of the brain with electric impulses, which can be somewhat fixed by adding additional 'grounding' in form of gold wires etc..? To stop hijacking the topic, I think that Renarin didn't come out because he already was a misfit. Or, something I remember from my own childhood, maybe he assumed that everyone had a Glys, but since nobody was talking about them, they must be some sort of taboo. (for me that was the fact that I was faking to read facial expressions and give the appropriate reactions, so the whole communication thing required a ton of effort for me just to blend in. I found it incredibly exhausting and always assumed that everyone secretly hated parties because they would have to sleep for the whole next day, but nobody talked about it because that was how it was. Since I know my brain works differently I just stop forcing myself to pretend to enjoy what society deems appropriate, and rather stay at home and read cosmere.) You provide an interesting perspective on the topic. If you don't mind me asking, maybe being able to interact with people better would also be an improvement? I mean no offense, I'm just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manavortex Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Hey, No, I don't mind you asking at all. Also, feel free to send me as many PMs as you want to. After all, only information will help you understand things, and I am happy to provide these. I'm also not taking offense, in fact, offending me is rather difficult If you don't mind me asking, maybe being able to interact with people better would also be an improvement? I can interact with people fairly well, but I usually communicate strictly on the factual level. I had it at least once that I was talking to someone, growing irritated about them being somewhat irrational about making their point, only to have them burst into tears mid-conversation because I had utterly missed the point where they had become so emotional that they weren't even arguing anymore, but only trying not to lose face. Since I'm aware of my condition I usually point it out, and nobody has ever reacted in a negative way to this. People find it easier to deal with me when I tell them that I'm not making indirect statements and am being literal about things. (For example, when someone says "you're very talented because you learn thisandthat so fast" I usually reply "I have a fairly high IQ and am gifted in this area". Apparently, this could be misunderstood as "I am awesome and you am stupid", which is by no means what I meant - or I would have said it.) I'll make an own thread about this, maybe - ask the autistic person To slowly start getting back to Renarin, I have to talk about myself a bit more: I'm extremely self-aware in a sense that I know exactly what my strengths and limitations are and, most important, I know that I'm allowed to be as I am, supposed to be as I am. I had the support of my parents against society, and when I made it through adolescence, the scorn I experienced slowly turned into admiration as people realised how awesome my brain was when I was allowed to use it on things I'm good at. I believe that almost nothing of that holds true for Renarin. He probably figured he was going crazy. And with everyone already thinking his father was losing his mind, probably didnt want to lend any credence to the allegations. Autism is also called "wrong planet syndrome". I can see how he would think that, and he probably did all he could to protect his father. Also, in the war-like Alethi society, Renarin would be even more a misfit than any of us could ever imagine. He is the son of a noble and due to his epilepsy he can't fight. That basically marks him as a complete failure according to society standards! I imagine that he considers himself a burden to Dalinar and Adolin, and he probably is as secluded to make it easier for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yurisses Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) Yeah, "healing" is a really problematic, and frankly offensive, topic. One thing I want to make perfectly clear is that with autism there is nothing /to/ be healed, an autistic individual's brain is merely wired differently, it is not wired "wrong". This is not something that Stormlight is going to be able to change, for the same reason Stormlight cannot "fix" Kaladin's depression. Elantris spoilers But Adien had autism and the Shaod healed this... Anyway, Adien is my planned hero for book two. I like the concept of a healed autistic being the hero of the next book. And, since he’s so good with numbers, he would be incredibly powerful at AonDor. I think he’d be a compelling character to look at, so I left him in this book in case I wanted to use him in the next one. Adien has been an Elantrian for some time. That’s why Kiin’s family knows so much about Elantrians. Read back to the earlier chapters, and you’ll see a scene or two where Sarene wonders why they know so much about Elantris and its occupants. They hid Adien’s transformation with makeup, and his autism kept him out of social circles anyway, so no one really paid much attention to the fact that he was never around. http://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-elantris-60-3/ That may have to do with the level of severity of the autism influencing whether the person living with it sees it as an issue to be fixed. Cognitive filtering. (I have indeed met several people who have strong autism and wished they did not; however it seems people with Asperger's strongly tend to consider it an essential part of their person) It could also be the fact that Adien's autism wasn't strictly speaking "healed", but that his person was made to match the Elantrian god image. edit: Also... Soothing might technically just cure Kaladin's depression. Edited January 5, 2016 by yurisses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) I’ve always felt that Renarin constantly tries to make himself useful, particularly to his family and father. I do wonder why he never revealed his Radiancy to Dalinar when Dalinar had reformed the Knights Radiant; Dalinar was looking so desperately for a Radiant, and there Renarin was—yet he did not reveal himself to his father. What reasons would he have for not doing this? He probably hasn t had the bond with the spren for that long. When he was bonding the blade Adolin has won for him in that duel he was very likely not having it because he didn t show any emotional anguish or pain at handling his new blade. He carried it around with him for days, the screaming in his head should have shown eventually. The bonding with the spren must have happened in the time between the end of bonding the blade and the duel with Kal and Adolin against the 4 shardbearers where he is unable to fight because of the screaming. Edited January 5, 2016 by Garfield 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) He probably hasn t had the bond with the spren for that long. When he was bonding the blade Adolin has won for him in that duel he was very likely not having it because he didn t show any emotional anguish or pain at handling his new blade. He carried it around with him for days, the screaming in his head should have shown eventually. The bonding with the spren must have happened in the time between the end of bonding the blade and the duel with Kal and Adolin against the 4 shardbearers where he is unable to fight because of the screaming. I'd say the bond already started to form when he first touched the blade, and he had spoken the first oath, since while Dalinar felt only mild disconfort with his new blade before solidifying his bond with the Stormfather, and after two oaths droped the blade in pain, Renarin was able to hide he was hearing screaming, yet winced when he first took the blade.So I think a first oath Knight may feel something quite unpleasant, but not as bad as the paralysing wails of the damned. Edited January 5, 2016 by DreamEternal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) I'd say the bond already started to form when he first touched the blade, and he had spoken the first oath, since while Dalinar felt only mild disconfort with his new blade before solidifying his bond with the Stormfather, and after two oaths droped the blade in pain, Renarin was abke to hide he was hearing screaming, yet winced when he first took the blade. Yeah, probably like Kaladin felt a vague revulsion to take the plate and blade he had won under Amaram. A time when he had already attracted the attention of his spren (which probably happened when he was still at home with his parents and felt drawn to life as a soldier because of it) but, no conscious relationship between them had formed yet. Edited January 5, 2016 by Garfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Yeah, probably like Kaladin felt a vague revulsion to take the plate and blade he had won under Amaram. A time when he had already attracted the attention of his spren (which probably happened when he was still at home with his parents and felt drawn to life as a soldier because of it) but, no conscious relationship between them had formed yet. No, I meant something worse. Your exemple is closer to the mild disconfort Dalinar felt, except he probably dismissed the revulsion dince he was so used to shardblades. I believe what Renarin felt was more like a sudden pain in the arm, or whatever he feels when his epilepsy makes it convulse, except with no convulsions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) Probably the bound human can directly sense the anguish of the undead spren and I assume that in a person with a seizure condition, this can trigger a seizure, just like strong sensual input can trigger migraine in a person prone to it. Edited January 5, 2016 by Garfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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