Gloom he/him Posted October 11, 2013 Report Share Posted October 11, 2013 I would agree that it looks like the two men are Heralds, and that it appears Szeth is carrying Jezriens' Honorblade. It would also appear that the Heralds are suffering under some form of curse. I wonder when that started. I wonder if Cultivation cursed them when Tanavast was killed. I think that Ash being Shalash is a reasonable assumption. I would agree that it looks like Jasnah is indeed in the early stages of a spren bond at this point, though I don't find that terribly surprising. Good catch on the two gents Cheese Ninja. Up vote for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted October 11, 2013 Report Share Posted October 11, 2013 Hmm. I am bothered by how the Alethi-looking man refers to Jezrien as his lord. We know that Jezrien was once king, but given how long the Heralds have been, well, Heralds... I guess they would refer to each other by first names, not titles. It feels weird for them to have hierarchical structure, given that they were all champions of Honor; Jezrien feels more like "first among equals" than like an actual lord or official leader. Of course, we don't have any official confirmation. Other than that, the rest seems to fit. Which makes me terribly suspicious in Brandon's books. Stuff that fits is usually a false trail =\ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morsk he/him Posted October 11, 2013 Report Share Posted October 11, 2013 (edited) I'm having trouble working out a view of either or both of them as Heralds. - If they're both Heralds, we're running out of male Heralds. There are only 4 who aren't Taln, and Ishi is probably bald (from the artwork). And if they're talking about Jezrien in the third person, they aren't him either. So it's Kalak and Nalan? - If they're both Heralds, why "my lord's blade" and not "our lord's"? - If only the one who spoke first is a Herald, why is the second guy telling him to shut up? Who tells a Herald to shut up? - On the other hand, first guy pulls the second guy's arm and turns him around. That's not exactly something you do to a Herald either. - Maybe the first guy is a normal mortal servant of Jezrien, or a member of the religion that worships Jezrien. But he says “We weren’t supposed to get worse." referring to (at least) himself and Ash. If Ash is Shallash, he's probably a Herald too. I guess I think it's Kalak and Nalan, but I don't have an explanation for "my lord's blade" instead of "our". Edited October 11, 2013 by Morsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted October 11, 2013 Report Share Posted October 11, 2013 (edited) Of course, this all hangs on the assumption that Ash is Shallash. Which, while plausible, is not one I'd give more than... maybe 70% confidence. If Ash is not Shallash, then she and the two men getting worse still puts them in the same... group or category... but that category doesn't have to be the Heralds. They could be members of some cult, or even two cults - maybe the Radiants are not as erased from the world as were led to believe (though I am not suggesting those two are Radiants; they could be groupies). This still allows for some support of the idea that Szeth wields Jezrien's Honorblade, if you like that one. EDIT: Of course they could be Kalak and Nalan. Brandon did say that we have seen far more Heralds (in TWoK) than we know about. Edited October 11, 2013 by Argent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnshard Posted October 12, 2013 Report Share Posted October 12, 2013 I just want to point out that Aimian have shadow's that point to the sun and during the Rysn Interlude she says that the shadow is a "Voidbringer shadow" and several times there are mentions of the people with one are cursed. I don't believe that Jasnah is cursed but she may have a conection to something. The mistwriths in Mistborn were called evil by the skaa but were actually just animals. I think it is superstition. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted October 12, 2013 Report Share Posted October 12, 2013 I like the spren theory a lot - the shadow misbehaving sounds very similar to Syl's first interactions with Kaladin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloom he/him Posted October 12, 2013 Report Share Posted October 12, 2013 I find it likely that Aimians are bound to a spren as well. The laws of physics generally apply in Roshar, if something is behaving oddly, it isn't unreasonable to assume the magic system is to blame, and that those troublesome spren are once again getting into mischief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
callumke he/him Posted October 12, 2013 Report Share Posted October 12, 2013 Well, in relation to the shadow, Axies the Collector refers to himself as suffering from the "Curse of Kind", so that could be the cause of his shadow. but it sounds like it could also be an effect of him being an Amian. Surely Shallan would have noticed had Jasnah's shadow behaved like all the time, especially the close quarters and stormlight they work with. As to the two men? I think they may not be referring to Szeth. Szeth was given his Blade by his people, and the Stone Shamans would "retrieve" it if he died. Also, I think an Honorblade would be significantly recognisable, an individual work of art beyond a normal Shardblade. Szeth's blade does not seem to match that description. If the two were Heralds, why would they refer to Szeth as "that creature"? Perhaps they have discovered that Jezrien's Honorblade is in the possession of a Parshendi! The plot thickens. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted October 12, 2013 Report Share Posted October 12, 2013 The thing about Jasnah's shadow is that we suspect it was roughly around the time of Gavilar's assassination that her powers were starting to manifest. Much like how Syl was messing around with Kaladin, making objects stick together, and so on. So by the time Shallan met her, she would have the entire thing under control - it took Kaladin, what, a year to solidify his relationship with Syl? And keep in mind, Jasnah is a scholar, should would probably approach this much more... academically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysty she/her Posted October 12, 2013 Report Share Posted October 12, 2013 Very good point, Argent. with 5 years to fully bond with the spren and learn her surges, no wonders she knows so much about soulcasting. And if her spren is as secreative as Syl and stopped playing pranks, Shallan never would have noticced anything until she knew the fabrial was a ruse. Jasnah does have trouble soulcasting organics, what would it take to learn that? more years of practice, or does she have the wrong paring of surges for that soulcasting ability? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted October 12, 2013 Report Share Posted October 12, 2013 I don't remember, is it just her, her order, is it a shortcoming of Soulcasting in general? Because either one makes sense to me: If it's just Jasnah, then then it could be an issue of practice. If it's her order, then it might be just that - her order is better at Soulcasting non-organic material. Which plays nicely with how she and Shallan are (probably) from different orders, considering that Shallan's first Soulcast involved an organic material (admittedly, blood was her target, not her source, but I think the logic still holds). So Jasnah's order is better with non-organics, and Shallan's is better with organics. If the problem is with Soulcasting in general, it tells us nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11thorderknight Posted October 12, 2013 Report Share Posted October 12, 2013 Let's give Jasnah some credit - organic substances are WAY more complex than inorganics (for the most part). Plus, add in the whole Ten Essences business, and it's obvious why Jasnah can't make convincing stawberry jam. According to the soulcasting system, making pure blood is the easiest thing you can do with a garnet. Ditto for making stone, or metal, or crystal. However, to make organic material, Jasnah would have to start out with an emerald, which would give her Pulp (basic plant fibers, i guess) and she'd then have to turn that into the complexity of the specific organic that she wanted. Even plain bread is probably not that easy. I bet that when the Ardents make food, they just make raw grain, which is pretty close to Pulp. As an aside, I would totally use a heliodor to turn boulders into filet mignon :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysty she/her Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 Let's give Jasnah some credit - organic substances are WAY more complex than inorganics (for the most part). That's true. And Dalinar did mention that soulcast food didn't taste very good, which is why the king brought food from the capital for his feasts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkanimereal1 Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 In regards to bonding Spren and Szeth and Shinovar. We see in places where people really believe and worship the Spren they seem to be bigger and stronger and more corporeal. Rock, who Syl isn't revealing herself to, can see her just the same, because his people believe so strongly in the Spren and worship them. Uh, I just wanted to point out that this idea really bothered me. Rock says that his people regard spren highly, but there is also a very particular word for the kind of person he is--someone who can see spren. That implies that not everyone can. I would go so far as to say that there aren't very many who can. So instead of coming down to Rock and his people believing so strongly that spren exist they can just magically see them, it instead seems to be an individual ability. I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Being cautious (and okaying a suggestion to spy on people) is the exact opposite of trusting, pretty much. Kaladin pretty much directly 'lied' (or obscured the truth) when he said he trusted everyone and then said Syl could spy on the men. You left out the part after Syl asks the question: 'Best to be safe' is not a thought you have when you trust someone. While it may be arguable that Kaladin didn't tell a bald-faced lie, he was certainly expressing a level of trust he did not have. Definitely something Syl does not approve of, but something she suggested anyways. I'm of the opinion that she grows throughout the story, and that this passage here shows that she's found some pragmatism. Well, in regards to how this argument originally came up (i. e., is Jasnah acting honorably?), although Syl offering is a loop hole for Kaladin, it does support Jasnah's actions with Lyss as honorable. So far, there is no evidence that Jasnah has ever had anybody killed. Sure, she may have. And it says that she's involved with a number of assassins. However, the way she references them seems to imply that she may be using them the same way--to keep an eye on her family. Their first agreement was that if anyone should come to Lyss and offer a contract on any member of Jasnah’s family, Lyss would let Jasnah match the offer in exchange for the name of the one who had made it. Lyss would keep the bargain. Probably. So with the dozen other assassins Jasnah dealt with, a repeat customer was always more valuable than a one-off contract. If that's the case, Jasnah is interacting with assassins in an attempt to protect her family, not endanger them. She is hiring Lyss to watch her sister-in-law, not to kill her. She's afraid Elhokar's wife may pose a threat, so if it comes to that it sounds like Jasnah may be willing to have her killed. However, she's adamant that she does not want her killed yet, just watched. And that's exactly what Syl is doing--just watching. So you can't say that Syl's actions fall within the ok limits without including Jasnah's actions in those same limits. If the two were Heralds, why would they refer to Szeth as "that creature"? Perhaps they have discovered that Jezrien's Honorblade is in the possession of a Parshendi! The plot thickens. I really love this idea. If Jasnah is right in saying the Voidbringers are parshmen, then the Heralds would have ample reason to call Parshendi "creatures" in such a nasty way. Finally, I just wanted to make sure I'm clear on this little point: They called her the Weeper, although she hadn’t coined the cognomen, it served her purpose well since she had secrets to hide. The first was her gender. The second had to do with the eyes of the people she killed. It was said the Weeper gouged them out to proclaim indifference whether her victims were lighteyed or dark. This bit could be taken two ways. At first I just assumed that Jasnah means that she wants to hide that she's a woman, since most peopel think "The Weeper" is a man. However, the sentence "It was said the Weeper gouged them out to proclaim indifference whether her victims were lighteyed or dark." made me re-think. If it's what "they" are saying (aka, rumors), then wouldn't it be "whether his victims" if they think the Weeper a man? So I guess what I'm asking is: am I reading this crazy? Is it just she wants to hide she's a girl, or is it that it's really a man posing as a woman? Everything about her screams woman to me, but I want to make sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Regarding the Weeper, It could be very well be something as small as the fact that this is a draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 This is also from Jasnah's point-of-view and Jasnah knows Lyss' gender. I'm fairly confident Lyss is a woman. She wants to keep her gender secret, because she's a woman. I don't really see the Alethi viewing assassination as a "feminine" pursuit so if she wants contracts she has to give the impression she is a man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 I actually think it wouldn't be so much that assassination itself wouldn't be considered a feminine pursuit (I am deliberately ignoring your sarcasm), anything related to fighting would fall under the "scowl at this" category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloom he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Keeping her gender a secret would also make it easier for her to get close to her victims. She would generally not be considered a threat. It would make getting into and out of locations easier as well. She may even be able to walk right past her victims guards if she carried a letter with her and explained it was urgent and needed to be read to him at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 I actually think it wouldn't be so much that assassination itself wouldn't be considered a feminine pursuit (I am deliberately ignoring your sarcasm), anything related to fighting would fall under the "scowl at this" category. That was the point I was trying to get across. Fighting, and presumably assassination, is a masculine art so the Alethi wouldn't approve of a female assassin. Also, what "sarcasm" are you referring to? My last post was written seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Sarcasm towards the Alethi. I don't really see the Alethi viewing assassination as a "feminine" pursuit This struck me as, if not sarcastic, then at least sassy or snarky. Not a bad way, I meant no offense up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Sarcasm towards the Alethi. This struck me as, if not sarcastic, then at least sassy or snarky. Not a bad way, I meant no offense up there. Yah I can see that how that could be perceived that way. It was not my intent however, I was being entirely earnest. (Believe me though, you'll know when I'm being sassy...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaokeang she/her Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Well considering the fact that she can stick a weapon in her safe pouch and no one will look there is probably nice as an assassin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysty she/her Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Maybe more Alethi women should consider careers in assasination. No one would suspect her to fight because it is not womanly. And excuse to get close because men can't read urgent dispatches. A safe pouch no one dare would check for weapons or poisons. It's almost like they cannot loose! Add Lyss's shardeblade on top of that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11thorderknight Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 The "not checking a woman's safepouch" thing will last right up until the first female assassin is discovered. Reason enough for Lyss to keep her gender secret. And I agree on the confusion - when I first read the transcription, I did have a mental image of a Shardblade-wielding dude in drag :-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan he/him Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 (edited) The "not checking a woman's safepouch" thing will last right up until the first female assassin is discovered. I seriously doubt that that's all it would take. The book is clear that searching a safepouch is equivalent to a strip search. It's not the kind of thing done casually. EDIT: Yup, just double-checked. Chapter 39: By tradition, a woman’s safepouch was where she kept items of intimate or very precious import. To search one would be like strip-searching her—considering her rank, either would be virtually unthinkable unless she were obviously implicated in a crime. Edited October 19, 2013 by Kurkistan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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