Slivers versus Splinters

[FeatherWriter]

I'm still not completely sold on the spren are of Cultivation theory, but I suppose that my theory works with it as well. But yes, Honorspren are regular spren who have picked up splinters. Hmm, maybe Syl used to be a windspren but got transformed into a Protectionspren or Leadershipspren or whatever. I always wondered why Kaladin couldn't tell she looked different from regular windspren. Maybe she's still looks like one. Syl is to Windspren as Returned are to Humans. She probably looks a little different, but not enough that a human would notice.

[leinton]

About splinters not having sentience... while we still don't know that Seons are Splinters, it is likely that they are, and they are definitely sentient. The only thing we know about Splinters are that they were never human, but that doesn't mean that they can't be sentient.

[FeatherWriter]

I don't know. I feel like the Seons would be splinter-holders as well (but don't quote me on that, as it's been a long time since I read Elantris). The Seons and Spren just feel very different from the Divine Breaths - the only confirmed splinters we have. I'd imagine that splinters would be more like the god metals (though much more powerful because they are larger portions of the shard): not sentient but seeking to be held by sentience. Like the shards themselves, but well, smaller. A piece of the whole. A splinter.

[leinton]

I think it's likely that they're different for the same reason to magic systems are different. Different Shards produce different effects, and it would make sense that their splinters would be different. Endowment "endows" a bit of him/herself to a person to make them Returned. Also, remember that Endowment is the only living Shard that we know of who has made splinters. Aona's and Skai's Shards were splintered after they died, maybe that's why Seons are sentient as well... leftover sentience from the greater whole.

[CrazyRioter]

You got to remember that the Shard itself isn't sentient, it's the mind attached it, which is tied to the Shard but not the Shard itself.

I wonder if Seons are like honorspren, only sentient when linked to a human.

[Zas678]

But if you get enough power together, you can get minds. Look at Nightblood.

[Kykeon]

No I don't think the honorspren "stop" being Splinters hen they aren't attached to anybody, they aren't ordinary spren even if they act like it when they aren't bonded to somebody.

Yes.

Splinters are a more neutral source of power because (to date) we haven't seen any personality bending going on.

Of course, that advantage is balanced out by power that is several orders of magnitude smaller than that of a Sliver.

Slightly off-topic:

Am I the only one whom splinters and their relation to slivers reminded of the Divine Essence in Exalted?

http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Exaltation#Celestial_Exaltation

The Exaltation occurs when the Celestial Essence attaches itself to a person's soul

Exaltation, sometimes reffered to as the Second Breath, is the process of a human being turned into one of the Exalted

See also: http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=God

Gods, by their very nature, are biased in specific ways. Because each god was created to watch over a specific area or item in order to protect and supervise it, they naturally have a desire to strengthen, protect and improve the standing of these items and areas. This leads to a severe lack in perspective toward anything not related to their guiding motivations

Sounds like the monomania that seems to take hold of all Shardholders after a certain amount of time, yes?

[FeatherWriter]

You got to remember that the Shard itself isn't sentient, it's the mind attached it, which is tied to the Shard but not the Shard itself.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. If the shard isn't sentient, why would pieces of it be? Also, I have two theories about the breaths. Either being attached to a human endows (cough cough) sentience on the breaths.

Or, more likely (but more in depth) everything has a cognitive mind. For reference, when Shallan soulcasts, she speaks to the mind (spren) of the goblet to get it to change. So, give enough breath to anything and even a metal sword's mind can be augmented to sentience.

[Zas678]

So you're saying that Seons, naturally, are like Ien during Elantris? Only vague recognition possible? And if they bind to a human then they gain an intelligence, as a result of that bind?

I wonder. Is there a net gain of intelligence when humans and seons are bound?

[FeatherWriter]

That sounds about right, I suppose, but I'm not sure. It's been a long time since I read Elantris.

[Zas678]

One thing about spren being Splinters of Cultivation- there is some connection between Highstorms (and perhaps Stormlight?) and Spren. In Shin, where there are no Highstorms, there seem to be no spren. (pg 433) "Not a one. No windspren, no lifespren, nothing."

[Puck]

I don't know. I feel like the Seons would be splinter-holders as well (but don't quote me on that, as it's been a long time since I read Elantris). The Seons and Spren just feel very different from the Divine Breaths - the only confirmed splinters we have. I'd imagine that splinters would be more like the god metals (though much more powerful because they are larger portions of the shard): not sentient but seeking to be held by sentience. Like the shards themselves, but well, smaller. A piece of the whole. A splinter.

But if you get enough power together, you can get minds. Look at Nightblood.

I agree zas. In fact, I think that's what's going on with Returned.

to wit:

Clod is more self-aware than most Lifeless. There is something left of Arsteel within Clod. The Breaths that Vasher gave him when he killed him do have an effect on this. (Brandonothology)

Let's follow this chain of reasoning:

1) Arsteel is dead. He is

. However you want to say it, his spirit is no longer in his body.

2) However, he is still moving around, despite having died.

3) That is the nature of this quadrant of Awakening: one breath animates the dead thing and lets it act, to some extent, like it did when alive

4) In fact, as in the case with Clod, the Lifeless can act very much like it did when alive, even down to parts of personality

5) It is the nature of the breaths with which Clod is endowed that allow him to maintain a part of Arsteel

C) One breath, of a very specific/potent quality, can create an Awakened who strongly retains his personality traits, so much that we might forget that they're dead/that their soul is no longer in their body.

It doesn't take much of a leap to see that the principles that make Clod special are the same that make a Returned more special than an Animated squirrel. Fundamentally, it's all about the quality of the Breath (and, possibly, the nature of the host with which the spren Seon Breath bonds).

Human intelligence (permanent) + Shard's power (temporary bond) -> Sliver

Shard's power (permanent) + Human intelligence (temporary bond) -> sentient Splinter

Really, all we have to accept is that there are 2 types of Splinters: bonded/sentient and unbonded/non-sentient

...did I just create a Theory? did i just create 2?!

[CrazyRioter]

So you're saying that Seons, naturally, are like Ien during Elantris? Only vague recognition possible? And if they bind to a human then they gain an intelligence, as a result of that bind?

I wonder. Is there a net gain of intelligence when humans and seons are bound?

that's more or less what I meant yes. At least that's my theory.

[Zas678]

Human intelligence (permanent) + Shard's power (temporary bond) -> Sliver

Shard's power (permanent) + Human intelligence (temporary bond) -> sentient Splinter

Really, all we have to accept is that there are 2 types of Splinters: bonded/sentient and unbonded/non-sentient

...did I just create a Theory? did i just create 2?!

I think that the first is not exactly right. A Sliver is someone who used to hold the majority of the power of a Shard. They have a little bit of leftover specialness in them. It means your personality is a little more like the shard (TLR, keeping things the same after a thousand years), and that you are a little more attuned to the shard.

The second might be true. Except, we have to say that only is the case when the Splinter is a separate object from the Human intelligence. Because Divine Breath isn't intelligent (that I know of).

It could even work with Nightblood. He is powerless, pointless, unless he has someone to hold him, someone to direct his thoughts. Perhaps that's the point of humans (in the bond). To give Splinters a point of reference.

[Puck]

I think that the first is not exactly right. A Sliver is someone who used to hold the majority of the power of a Shard. They have a little bit of leftover specialness in them. It means your personality is a little more like the shard (TLR, keeping things the same after a thousand years), and that you are a little more attuned to the shard.

I'm still gonna say we're saying the same thing here, only you're talking flavor and I'm talking recipe, symptom vs. disease, effect vs. cause, or some other analogy that won't come to my head right now

The second might be true. Except, we have to say that only is the case when the Splinter is a separate object from the Human intelligence. Because Divine Breath isn't intelligent (that I know of).

I guess what I'm saying (and what seems to be the case from what Brandon has said), is that a Splinter is always and inherently a separate object from human intelligence.

My theory is that it is the temporary bond between Splinter and human that give the Splinter temporary sentience (a sentience that tends to follow its [the Splinter's/Shard's] Intent).

What I was implying with my earlier post is that Divine Breaths are indeed sentient, when bonded to a human body. They reflect that human's personality a bit (as in the Clod/Arsteel example), but the human's soul is gone and the thing animating the human shell (makes it walk, talk, quip, play lawn games, flirt) is the Divine Breath.

Granted, this is Just A Theory, but it's a theory that accommodates for Seons-, Divine Breaths-, and Spren-as-Splinters, and explains the meaningful difference between them that has been raised (namely, sentience)

[Zas678]

Except that Returned keep mainly the same personality as before they were returned. And Seons don't reflect their owners personalities (look at Hrathen's Seon. It doesn't reflect his personality very well.)

And I don't like using Clod as an example. He is an uber exception. He's a Returned, hiding his Divine Breath, who was given a wealth of breath, who then died and was given another Breath to become a Lifeless. He's got such a mix of different breaths. Yet, even with all of this, he doesn't show any emotion. He may be thinking, but he's not showing it.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

I agree zas. In fact, I think that's what's going on with Returned.

to wit:

Let's follow this chain of reasoning:

1) Arsteel is dead. He is

. However you want to say it, his spirit is no longer in his body.

2) However, he is still moving around, despite having died.

3) That is the nature of this quadrant of Awakening: one breath animates the dead thing and lets it act, to some extent, like it did when alive

4) In fact, as in the case with Clod, the Lifeless can act very much like it did when alive, even down to parts of personality

5) It is the nature of the breaths with which Clod is endowed that allow him to maintain a part of Arsteel

C) One breath, of a very specific/potent quality, can create an Awakened who strongly retains his personality traits, so much that we might forget that they're dead/that their soul is no longer in their body.

It doesn't take much of a leap to see that the principles that make Clod special are the same that make a Returned more special than an Animated squirrel. Fundamentally, it's all about the quality of the Breath (and, possibly, the nature of the host with which the spren Seon Breath bonds).

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who thinks this!! This has been my theory of what's going on with the Returned since I learned that Endowment is the name of the Shard for Nalthis, that they are basically a Lifeless on Super fuel.

My thought on why they have to consume a breath per week is that as "Super Lifeless"_TM they are invested objects. As invested objects they can't maintain the connection to Endowment with out a "connection fuel", if there is nothing to maintain the connection the splinter will return to Endowment.

The Splinter of Endowment has the ability to regenerate/heal. Once used would that portion return to endowment? What do you guys think?

Switching to Scadrial, I have always thought that Atium/Larasium were the splinters of Ruin/Preservation. I'm sure that's been discussed, but I haven't gotten to all the boards yet

I also just found this reference in the Brandonotholgy regarding the shardblades when someone asked about a fight between Szeth and a Mistborn:

Szeth's Shardblade would be mostly immune to Pushing and Pulling, as it's an Invested object

This would seem to me to indicate that the Shardblade is a splinter.

[CrazyRioter]

Atium and Lerasium aren't Splinters apparently, Brandon said we haven't seen any Splinters on Scadrial.

Shardblades may be/contain Splinters.

Edited June 17, 2011 by CrazyRioter

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

Hmm, guess I was reading a bit much into this quote from Brandon when talking about Elantris.

Note that we have seen temporal abilities in the Cosmere before. Most of the time these are related directly to the pure essence of a Shard or to a Splinter.

I assumed that to mean the temporal abilities of Atium were due to Atium being a Splinter

[CrazyRioter]

Atium is made of the pure essence or "body" of Ruin (as Lerasium is the pure essence or "body" of Preservation. Hence why Atium allows future sight.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

Atium is made of the pure essence or "body" of Ruin (as Lerasium is the pure essence or "body" of Preservation. Hence why Atium allows future sight.

I understand that.

I guess it's just my own mis-reading of that quote since the Atium is the pure essence of a Shard where for some reason i was thinking it would be a splinter. I was finding a contradiction where none exists between the quote above and the quote where Brandon says we've never seen a Splinter on Scadrial.

[Asha'man Logain]

I haven't made up my mind about the spren yet. I feel we don't know enough yet to really make a decision on them, but it's a good possibility certainly.

I think spren are more of the power source, or at least the connection between the source (stormlight) and the user. If this is the case then wouldn't spren be more like either the Dor itself or the Aons used to connect to that power?

[Asha'man Logain]

I don't know. I feel like the Seons would be splinter-holders as well (but don't quote me on that, as it's been a long time since I read Elantris). The Seons and Spren just feel very different from the Divine Breaths - the only confirmed splinters we have. I'd imagine that splinters would be more like the god metals (though much more powerful because they are larger portions of the shard): not sentient but seeking to be held by sentience. Like the shards themselves, but well, smaller. A piece of the whole. A splinter.

I want just espouse this whole post