Theory: Hoid - Nightblood - Roshar

[Phantom Monstrosity]

The Breaths keeping Kalad's Phantom's from falling apart lasted for three centuries. That would suggest that they aren't using their "capital" when you use them for Awakening, at least to a certain extent. Nightblood was made during the Manywar (also three centuries) and he's still kicking. The only expiration date we're given for Lifeless is their ichor alcohol being kept fresh and their bodies kept in good condition, so I would hazard that they can last for longer than usual as a matter of course.

 

If Breath can keep piles of bones together for long enough to fade into legend, that suggests that they either have a near-infinite well of power or they're managing to replenish/reuse a finite well. I'd guess the later.

 

Yeah, but he very well could have left in more breath than the bare minimum.  The God King accumulated additional Breath over the centuries - it's possible that it was necessary to make sure that the Phantoms could still be activated after a long period of degradation. 

[Kurkistan]

I don't think so, but, either way, I think we're already well beyond the "some energy has to be either generated or recovered" threshold at this point.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I don't think so, but, either way, I think we're already well beyond the "some energy has to be either generated or recovered" threshold at this point.

Maybe.  I mean, realmatically speaking it's definitely possible for them to expire when animating objects.  Brandon was considering having them do that during the final draft...

 

http://twg.17thshard.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=5df1c0b5c511d7543c10d103a26edbdf&topic=4479.msg113294;topicseen#msg113294

Hum.  I like that suggestion, actually.  I think I'll use it.  Though, what I'll do is say that if you leave the breath in for too long, one of them vanishes.  If you can get them back quickly enough, however, there is no loss.  That gives a bit of a better explanation of why there aren't a lot of awakened objects doing things all over the place.  True, using the breath to make them would be initially expensive--but if you got a magic object that never winds down, then that might be worth the expense.

Apparently Nightblood and Returned operate under the same Breath use mechanics as well?

 

http://twg.17thshard.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=5df1c0b5c511d7543c10d103a26edbdf&topic=4479.msg113372#msg113372

Just like Nightblood feeds off of Breath, a Returned feeds off of Breath.  They need about one a week, he needs about one every second.

 

So anyway apparently either way is valid realmatically, since if you can constantly shuffle Breath into and out of your machines to keep them working perpetually, something else is up..

 

(same page as the first quote includes another note about how that lifeless are actually fairly smart, but that's not relevant here)

Edited June 29, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Kurkistan]

Maybe.  I mean, realmatically speaking it's definitely possible for them to expire when animating objects.  Brandon was considering having them do that during the final draft...

So anyway apparently either way is valid realmatically, since if you can constantly shuffle Breath into and out of your machines to keep them working perpetually, something else is up..

 

Nice quote find (though how in the name of all that is Cosmerical did you find it?). Hm.

 

I'd guess that Lifeless skimp by on this one because they're "sticky" and their Breaths cannot be recovered. That gives a bit of a clue as to how Brandon might justify this: Perhaps it's the case that Breaths aren't really meant to be kept in anything but fauna, and so are so loosely anchored that they can both be recovered by their Awakener and be tugged loose by Cosmic Tides of Force and Randomness as they're already tenuous holds on non-lifeform objects weaken over time.

 

Apparently Nightblood and Returned operate under the same Breath use mechanics as well?

 

Yeah, I've historically categorized that one as "expending the capital": So Nightblood and Returned actually consume the core of the Breath itself (but only when active, in Nightblood's case) and so get a lot more power each time, but at the cost of destroying the Breath.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Of course, speculating from drafts-in-progress is always a iffy, but I figure that Big Cosmere Rules should probably be obeyed... then again, I suspect that Medium-Sized Cosmere Rules are probably in flux to some extent...

 

And yeah I was going through warbreaker to find breath number counts, and the earlier drafts have more of them (since having exact numbers felt too videogamey)

[Azul]

I never saw Breaths as something that replenish or get consumed.  To me it was just something that was moved from one vessel to another, much like pooring water from one bowl to another.  With the Returned their divine Breath returns to Endowment after a week and they die unless they are given another Breath.  So isn't it possible the Breath they receive simply takes its place and returns to Endowment instead of the divine one?  As for Nightblood I'm not quite sure but it sort of feels like a black hole for breaths.  Drawing them in and perhaps storing them.  If it consumed them in some way wouldnt that suggest going without  would cause it to weaken?

[Kurkistan]

What makes you think Returned give up Breaths to Endowment? Lightsong's POV shows him to be weaker just before he needs to eat his weekly child sacrifice, so that suggests rather strongly to us that Returned actually use Breath to fuel their bodies--as they don't need any other kind of sustenance.

 

For Nightblood, he only uses Breaths when he's actually used, and draws upon his wielder then. I think he just sits pretty on his normal investment the rest of the time, similarly to a Lifeless. Recall that Brandon has said that there is a link between the black smoke shardblades cause when they soul-kill someone and Nightblood's black smoke: both are likely the result of destroying and/or damaging souls (or at least parts of them).

Edited June 29, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Azul]

I thought Breaths were Endowments investure on Nalthis and that Endowment gave the Returned their divine Breaths.  The weakness the Returned feel could be from their divine Breath beginning to slowly drain back to its source.  As for what Nightblood actually does I have no clue I was just pointing out that it doesnt appear to actually need more breaths to power itself.

[Kurkistan]

I don't quite think. If Breaths are Endowment's Investiture, I would argue that they are from him/her in only the same way that Preservation's power is in Scadrians.

 

Brandon describes Returned as "consuming" Breath, also, so that kind of nixes anything besides Returned being the instruments of their own destruction.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Leuthie]

Everyone has the stuff of Breath. Only Nathisians can move break theirs off and transfer them.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I don't quite think. If Breaths are Endowment's Investiture, I would argue that they are from him/her in only the same way that Preservation's power is in Scadrians.

 

Brandon describes Returned as "consuming" Breath, also, so that kind of nixes anything besides Returned being the instruments of their own destruction.

 

To be fair, Preservation *was* weakened by chopping off a bit for humanity.

 

Also, Breath that is in a guy who dies of natural causes is still hanging around in their corpse apparently.

Is there a way to harvest BioChromatic Breath from a planet, if it holds any? (If a person dies, and their body turns to dusty he dust of the earth, then doesn't the earth—or sharever planet they have—therefore hold thousands, if not millions, of BioChromatic Breaths?)

Possible. It would be the same thing as harvesting the nature of Preservation or Ruin, which--on Scadrial--took the form of nuggets of metal.

Unless Brandon is just referring to Endowment sticking endowment in all of the planet, of course (like how a rock in scandrial has half preservation and half ruin imbued into it).

[Miyabi]

A few things here:

Shardblades - We know they are items which have some level of Investiture in them.

Nightblood - We know it was created through Investiture.

Perhaps Hoid latched on to Nightblood hoping it would be a good weapon against the Dawnshards once they returned. He obviously can't be tromping around Roshar carrying a Shardblade. It would become known too easily. Also, Nightblood has to feed on Investiture. So far we've only seen it eat Breath, but perhaps there are other ways.

In another topic I discussed the use of storing Investiture into Nicrosil in a Feruchemical fashion, then burning it Allomantically. Hoid is a known Feruchemist, and we know he took a bead of Lerasium. Perhaps this is how he intends to fight against Odium? By feeding Nightblood, an item of GREAT Investure with Investure he himself creates using an Invested item created through the power of one Shard and feeding it with the power created by another Shard?

Hmmm.

Also, since every other description shows it as silver I feel it would be highly likely it was a typo or he was hiding the fact that it was silver for some Hoidian reason.

[Pechvarry]

I mentioned on the first page that he could simply feed Nightblood investiture converted from calories and eat a lot.

But I think something more dramatic would be required to use it on a shard. Compounding would be a good start, but I still prefer the idea of somehow chaining Nightblood to Odium and having it devour him, as we know it can do even to the Returned (which may be splinters). Even a disintegration sword seems sub-optimal against something with the power to move planets.

[Miyabi]

I had intentionally not mentioned the idea of using "calories for Investiture." Nightblood takes away Breaths, which appear to be fairly large amounts of Investiture. I highly doubt that you could eat enough to create Investiture strong enough to wield it for more than a few seconds.

[Pechvarry]

I was agreeing you'd need a more dramatic source of investiture for fighting a god. But the idea is the same: I don't believe Nightblood is limited to eating Breath.

[Miyabi]

I see. That makes more sense.

[Kadrok]

I'm wondering if the description in the kaladin scene is wrong.

Alternatively, doesn't he visit Kaladin while officially disappearing? I could see him wrapping the silvery scabbard with a black material to help avoid notice and recognition.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if one could feed Nightblood any type of investiture. Like, ohhh, stored calories from all those lighteyes feasts.

 

Oooh, so fun idea. We know that if someone draws Nightblood it's gonna feed off their Breaths until it kills them. It's utilizing the Breaths for energy. But, what if the person drawing Nightblood was infused with Stormlight? Would he be able to use that energy instead, or would it not work because it's from Honor/Cultivation/Odium/godonlyknowswhat?

 

I like this idea. And given that Hoid has Feruchemy, what is to stop him (if he has a Nightblood-like sword) from simply fueling it with blank investiture from a Nicrosilmind? We already know you can use Nicrosil charges to fuel other Feruchemical powers, and we also know you can pour the investiture from a Nicrosilmind into other people's metalminds to annihilate their charges. I suspect that if you did that with an object like Nightblood, it would eat the charges rather than be killed. Hoid could pour the Nicrosil investiture into the sword while it is drawn to stop it from taking breath...

[Miyabi]

When I asked this of Brandon he got really excited and said it was a good question, but it wasn't Nightblood.

This leads me to think it's a different Awakened sword.

[Natans]

Thank you for the trouble of asking him that question. I deeply moved by the gesture =)

 

I never had the chance to ask my favorites writers any question.

 

Many upvotes are in the way for you kind sir =)

[Cheese Ninja]

I can just imagine the characters making a tally after the events of Nightblood.

 

Vash:"Here's the 14 Awakened swords Yesteel made before we stopped him."

Vivi:"Don't you mean 15?"

Vash:"..."

Vivi:"..."

Vash:"That white-haired guard that was keeping an eye on them, did he seem at all suspicious to you?"

Nightblood: I spoke to him, he said he just needed to borrow it.  Indefinitely.

[Mikanium]

And if Hoid gave the blade his bead? Nightblood is alive. Weeee

[Natans]

Nightblood is off maybe some another Awakened Blade (how knows maybe one that aren't psyco) 

Edited October 1, 2013 by Natans

[Unknowingly]

I disagree with it being Nightblood on the fact of the different coloured hilts (this is despites hoids lightweaving, he has no one to hide the blade from on Roshar, so why change it)

But there is something special about that blade, Brandon mentions it too often for it not to be special.

I personally am inclined to think that he has an awakened blade, but its not Nightblood

[Argent]

I disagree with it being Nightblood on the fact of the different coloured hilts

 

 Not on the fact that Brandon said so?

[Darkarma]

When I asked this of Brandon he got really excited and said it was a good question, but it wasn't Nightblood.

This leads me to think it's a different Awakened sword.

 Leading to my own theory thread, I have an idea that most the Lerasium bead might have been part of the sword's construction for a Hemalurgic-Awakened Sword that could be used as a metalmind?