Are spren attracted to somebody/something or do they cause it?

[Meg]

This question bothers me quite a while now.

 

Syl says: 

 

“Bindspren,” Syl said, walking up beside his head; she was still standing in the air.
“They’re holding the rock in place.”
“Maybe. Or maybe they’re attracted to what you’ve done in affixing the stone there.”
“That’s not how it works. Is it?”
“Do rotspren cause sickness,” Syl said idly, “or are they attracted to it?”
“Everyone knows they cause it.”
“And do windspren cause the wind? Rainspren cause the rain? Flamespren cause fires?”
He hesitated. No, they didn’t. Did they?
(TWoK Ch 57)

 

 

Syl still stood beside him, facing eastward. It made his very soul twist in knots to see that look of despair on her face. “Are windspren attracted to wind,” she asked softly, “or do they make it?”
“I don’t know,” Kaladin said. “Does it matter?”
“Perhaps not. You see, I’ve remembered what kind of spren I am.”
“Is this the time for it, Syl?”
“I bind things, Kaladin,” she said, turning and meeting his eyes. “I am honorspren. Spirit of oaths. Of promises. And of nobility.”
(TWoK Ch 67)

 

But on the other side she said:

 

“They would have died more quickly without you. You made it so they had a family in the army. I remember their gratitude. It’s what drew me in the first place. You helped them.”
(TWoK Ch 11)

 

 

And, perhaps the better "argument" for my idea: 

 

Kaladin's heart beat faster. Anticipationspren sprung up around members of the army, but not his team. To their credit, there weren’t any fearspren either—not that they didn’t feel fear, they just weren’t as panicked as the other bridge crews, so the fearspren went there instead.

(TWoK Ch 32)

 

 

So the fearspren left Bridge Four alone not, because there was no fear but because the other bridgemen felt more fear.

 

That is evidence for me to theorize: 

Kaladin('s way of live) attracted Syl('s attention) setting the foundations for their further relationship and therewith for Syl's development.

 

Following this idea I dare say that all spren are attracted by ... (flamespren by fire (flames), windpren by wind, riverspren by rivers, bindspren by using stormlight to bind something, rotspren by infectious wounds, deathspren by people that are near to death, exhaustionspren by people that are exhausted, tbc.).

 

A further idea: If my thoughts are right and only windspren can become honorspren this may be caused by the fact that they are always out and dancing on/with the storms, even highstorms that sort of "carry" (for lacking a better word) stormlight which seems to be "Honor's power given to the people?" 

 

What do you think?

 

edit: adding the fourth quote and the following lines.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Meg

[Kiwi]

This is kind of what I've been trying to figure out in my other thread.  I haven't come to any conclusions yet, but there's a nice discussion going on about it.

[Kurkistan he/him]

I agree that spren, in the general case, almost certainly do not cause the effects they are associated with. Shinovar does fine by itself, men can be afraid while a limited number of fearspren only go to a few of them, fire, as a rule, does not require magical sprites in order to burn, etc. There are problematic cases though, such as Syl's "battle" with deathspren seeming to actually matter. This suggests the possibility that spren are everywhere on every world, but only visible on Roshar because of the nature of the planet and/or Shards and/or excess of Spiritual energy in the form of stormlight.

 

I still say that spren don't cause something, though, due to the persuasiveness (if I may say so myself) of my own arguments about spren as reactive to human perceptions (which arguments have since been backed by various WoB's). It could be a bit of a feedback loop, I suppose, with belief in things such as Death empowering spren to have some effect on the world. Fundamentally, though, the effect has to exist before the spren can, even if the spren feed back into their cause after their creation. So spren don't exist everywhere, but where they do they sometimes exacerbate the phenomena they are associated with.

 

Also, I suspect that only Windrunners get pseudo-windspren as their spren. Wind, wind, ya know. . .

Edited June 11, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Leuthie]

Further thought: the newly posted reading of a Dalinar vision in WoR mentions

spren that are touched by (some name) are corrupted. We then see one dart underground just before a Thunderclast pops up.

Its possible that spren must be "touched" by someone or something with power to become more. In the case of Syl, she could have been a windspren "touched" by something (possibly a Splinter of Honor) then sought out an honorable person to bind with. The bond results in a Windrunner. Other "touched" spren may result in other KR varieties.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Nice thought, Leuthie.

[Isomere]

Personally I like the ambiguity. We are left with evidence that spren are both attracted to certain things, but can also cause those things to occur. Sort of like the particle/wave duality of light, spren are to some extent defined by their context, which determines if they are attracted to an event or create it.

[Meg]

This is kind of what I've been trying to figure out in my other thread.  I haven't come to any conclusions yet, but there's a nice discussion going on about it.

 

Thanks, I saw this but it's not really the same subject. 

 

 

Further thought: the newly posted reading of a Dalinar vision in WoR mentions

spren that are touched by (some name) are corrupted. We then see one dart underground just before a Thunderclast pops up.

Its possible that spren must be "touched" by someone or something with power to become more. In the case of Syl, she could have been a windspren "touched" by something (possibly a Splinter of Honor) then sought out an honorable person to bind with. The bond results in a Windrunner. Other "touched" spren may result in other KR varieties.

 

 

Hasn't there been WoB (more or less directly) that at least some "spren are Splinters of Honor" (heavily paraphrased)? So how should the Splinters of Honor get "touched ... by ... (possibly a Splinter of Honor)?" I don't see any logic here.

[Azul he/him]

Is it possible that spren are both drawn to and can exert some power over the thing they are drawn too?  Only most of them are not sentient enough to bother? 

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Are spren attracted to somebody/something or do they cause it?

 

Yes.

[Leuthie]

The logic is spurious to begin with. I don't know what "touched" means, nor do I know who or what is doing the touching.

And where does WoB say there are spren that are Splinters? Closest I've seen is that spren are similar to/related to Seons and the Aons in Seons are Splinters.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Are spren attracted to somebody/something or do they cause it?

Yes.

 

No. 

[Leuthie]

Syl fights off deathspren from Kaladin's PoV during the Highstorm. Any reason she would if spren don't have an effect on what they are attracted to?

Edited June 11, 2013 by Leuthie

[Kurkistan he/him]

Syl fights off deathspren from Kaladin's PoV during the Highstorm. Any reason she would if spren don't have an effect on what they are attracted to?

 

While (as I said) I agree that it seems that Syl's battle with the deathspren mattered, it's not a 100% sure thing. It could be a futile or symbolic effort on her part.

[Isomere]

Or a deathbed delirium of Kaladin that never actually happened

[Meg]

Yes.

 

 

Thank you very much for your helpful answer. 

 

 

Syl fights off deathspren from Kaladin's PoV during the Highstorm. Any reason she would if spren don't have an effect on what they are attracted to?

 

 

Aside from the fact that she didn't "fight off deathspren ... during the highstorm." She were there and she seemed to try to protect him but there were no deathspren during the highstorm (at least not mentioned and I believe they were not mentioned because there had none been). The deathspren-scene comes later, when Kal recovers from his injuries. 

 

But that was not my topic. That there can be kind of an exchange can be read in TWoK. 

 

 

“I’m behind what is happening to you,” she said, voice soft. “I’m doing it.”

Kaladin frowned, stepping forward.

“It’s both of us,” she said. “But without me, nothing would be changing in you. I’m… taking something from you. And giving something in return. It’s the way it used to work, though I can’t remember how or when. I just know that it was.”

“I—”

“Hush,” she said. “I’m talking.”

“Sorry.”

“I’m willing to stop it, if you want,” she said. “But I would go back to being as I was before. That scares me. Floating on the wind, never remembering anything for longer than a few minutes. It’s because of this tie between us that I can think again, that I can remember what and who I am. If we end it, I lose that.”

TWoK Ch 57 

[Leuthie]

My take has been that spren bind with attuned individuals or processes. Both spren and bind target share aspects (Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual) both ways. The spren gains more powers ( the ability to interact with the Physical, for example), while what its bound to gains something from the spren. The only clear example we have so far is Syl and Kaladin, with Syl gaining Cognitive ability and more Physical interaction from Kaladin and Kaladin gains his Windrunner abilities from Syl.

With more examples we'll know more, but that's my take on it right now.

[Shardlet he/him]

I think there are spren that act (honorspren, greatshell spren, voidspren?) and spren that merely are (flamespren, fear spren, anticipationspren, etc.).  I think the spren that act are able to do so due to a direct influence (past or present) from Honor, Odium, and Cultivation.  I suspect that all spren are attracted by a particular concept, emotion, principle, etc.

 

As far as Syl and the deathspren (name of a Rosharian metal band?) go, I think it is important to recognize that Syl has emotions and an emotional attachment to Kaladin.  She knows that deathspren are attracted to the dying.  I don't think that the deathspren cause death, and I think Syl thinks so either.  But, when faced with something that terrified her (Kaladin's impending death), she simply lashed out and fought against his death in the only way she could, even though she knew it would not actually help.  People commonly have a similar response to situations and events which they have no control or influence over.  They lash out at the nearest viable target in order to address their pain and feel like they are gaining some measure of control over the situation.

[blackmagic3 he/him]

I pose this question in shinovar I assume there is wind, life, fire and pain yet we see no spren, any theories on that?

[Leuthie]

No Highstorms so no Stormlight so no spren. Or its less direct and the same power that keeps the Highstorms out also tamps down spren. I lean toward the former: spren formation requires the local presence of Stormlight. More accurately: Stormlight causes the formation of spren.

[Meg]

No Highstorms so no Stormlight so no spren. Or its less direct and the same power that keeps the Highstorms out also tamps down spren. I lean toward the former: spren formation requires the local presence of Stormlight. More accurately: Stormlight causes the formation of spren.

 

 

I don't agree because we have no evidence that there really is no Stormlight in Shinovar:

 

They held sapphires infused with Stormlight. Profane. How could the men of these lands use something so sacred for mere illumination?

TWoK Prologue 

 

And yet they thought nothing of walking on stone or using Stormlight for everyday illumination.

TWoK I-6

 

At least I think that the Shin surely know Stormlight but because of Shinovar being sheltered by that mountains the can't get much benefit from highstorms. May be the Stormlight carried by highstorms only on rare occasions "sweeps" over that mountains. 

Another possibility to gain Stormlight might be infused spheres or gemstones through trading. 

 

But then, Thresh said: 

You forced me to take something in trade, though to confess, I had to throw your payment into a river. 

TWoK, I-4

 

I, personally, think that there is a small amount of Stormlight in Shinvoar too and thus it's revered and not in daily, "profane" use. 

 

 

And there might be no or only a few spren in Shinovar. Do we know (WoB) whether there are really no spren in Shinovar while we know on the other side that "there are spren everywhere around on Roshar" but they aren't always mentioned (some theorized that Dalinar might have attracted on but doesn't give it a heed). 

[Satsuoni he/him]

I am pretty sure spren are both, in a way. As was mentioned, no Highstorms seems to mean no spren, and spren were mentioned to serve as vents for splintered power. They are also influenced, and apparently formed, of concepts. I sometimes think that Stormlight is carried over all three Realms, in an explosion called Highstorm, and the "pressure" pushes it into gems like Investiture is pushed through metals. There would be residual Stormlight all over Roshar, bleeding over through spren manifestation. Then, this residual stormlight density would limit amount of spren that can appear in one place, and those would manifest when their concepts come into play. Those are "attracted", but give them more power, more Stormlight, through fabrial or in other way, and they will start to affect what made them in the first place - see the pain knife fabrial, where a painspen is used to cause intense pain.

Also, I am sleepy and incoherent. Sorry about that.

[Isomere]

Spren exist everywhere but are only visible if stormlight infuses them?

[The Count he/him]

Spren exist everywhere but are only visible if stormlight infuses them?

 

Now that is an interesting notion...

 

Do Spren use stormlight to manifest / become visible? This could mean that spren are merely invisible in Shinovar rather than absent.

 

It seems like Spren must be able to 'channel' stormlight in some way since it is the bonding of spren which allows surgebinding / fabrial soulcasting (I know, I know... as always, our favorite Truthless seems to defy all logic!!!)

 

In which case... in a fabrial, it is the Spren using the stormlight? Or the User?

 

If anyone can, indeed use fabrials, and they only have a single use, then surely is merely the spren acting as a conduit according to its nature.

 

The difference with true surgebinding then is the presence of a cognitive aspect in the Spren / Human bond that is not present is a Spren / Gem bond.

 

Hmmm... I feel a theory coming on... needs work though.

[Meg]

Now that is an interesting notion...

 

Do Spren use stormlight to manifest / become visible? This could mean that spren are merely invisible in Shinovar rather than absent.

 

I kind of like that idea but there are questions: 

 

Wouldn't that mean that the "visible appearance" of spren would slow down in the span between highstorms (most during the highstorm, the fewest near to the next highstorm)? Or they can hold stormlight better than gems, which would run out of Stormlight within a week? Wouldn't there be more spren visible in a room that is well-lit by spheres than by candles? 

Anyways wouldn't there be much more visible spren on the Shattered Plains (which are nearest to the "origin of the highstorms") than in the western regions of Roshar (save for Shinovar)?

 

But I stick with your idea. Possible solution: Spren need a certain amount of Stormlight around that is permanently reached everywhere on Roshar but (mostly) not in Shinovar. 

 

 

 

It seems like Spren must be able to 'channel' stormlight in some way since it is the bonding of spren which allows surgebinding / fabrial soulcasting (I know, I know... as always, our favorite Truthless seems to defy all logic!!!)

 

In which case... in a fabrial, it is the Spren using the stormlight? Or the User?

 

If anyone can, indeed use fabrials, and they only have a single use, then surely is merely the spren acting as a conduit according to its nature.

 

The difference with true surgebinding then is the presence of a cognitive aspect in the Spren / Human bond that is not present is a Spren / Gem bond.

 

Hmmm... I feel a theory coming on... needs work though.

 

I don't know in mind: Are spren captured in every soulcaster('s gems; aside from the fake soulcasters ). 

 

From Navani's notebook, so it would seem. 

 

The cut and type of the gem determines what kind of spren are attracted to it and can be imprisoned in it. There must be thousands of possible combinations. Once a spren is captured and the gem infused with Stormlight the fabrial can be used in machines.*

 

(*Note that in this notebook, Navani refers to a single gem with captured spren as "fabrial", while a combination of one or several gems and setting is referred to as a "machine". In colloquial use, "fabrial" often refers to a complete product.)

 

It seems to me that the "action" burns up the Stormlight rather then the imprisoned spren or the user, but it might be that the spren channels the power of the stormlight to make that "action" work. 

[The Count he/him]

I kind of like that idea but there are questions: 

 

Wouldn't that mean that the "visible appearance" of spren would slow down in the span between highstorms (most during the highstorm, the fewest near to the next highstorm)? Or they can hold stormlight better than gems, which would run out of Stormlight within a week? Wouldn't there be more spren visible in a room that is well-lit by spheres than by candles? 

Anyways wouldn't there be much more visible spren on the Shattered Plains (which are nearest to the "origin of the highstorms") than in the western regions of Roshar (save for Shinovar)?

 

But I stick with your idea. Possible solution: Spren need a certain amount of Stormlight around that is permanently reached everywhere on Roshar but (mostly) not in Shinovar. 

 

Very valid questions. I suppose there would be sort of 'background' level of stromlight around.

 

On thinking further about this, I think it is more plausable that the innate spiritual nature of the spren allows them to manifest, although the question of whether this requires a power source is still valid.

 

It seems to me that the "action" burns up the Stormlight rather then the imprisoned spren or the user, but it might be that the spren channels the power of the stormlight to make that "action" work. 

 

This is exactly what I mean.

 

So we have 2 situations (and 1 Szeth):

 

1/ Fabrial Soulcasting:

 

Spren are trapped in (or bonded to) a Gem. The Gem provides the framework (or parameters) or the intended function with the spren acting at the vector throught which it is powered. The Gem still needs to be infused with stormlight which provides the actual power source. There is no cognitive transfer in the relationship so the combined 'entity' can only perform a single function as denoted by the cut of the gem and type of spren.

 

2/ Surgebinding

 

Spren bond to a congitive creature (human). Again, the spren provides the vector though which power is trasfered for a specific task. The key difference is that the function is directed by the cognitive aspect of the surgebinder so the range of functions is wider. Power still comes from stormlight with gems used as a kind of battery (since they can store stormlight perfectly (as far as we know). However, note that the surgebinder (or at least a Windrunner) needs to transfer the Stormlighht to themselves before is can be used.

 

In both instances:

 

A Spren is bonded

The type of spren denotes the 'class' (or surge i guess) of abilities available

Stormilight is used for power

 

The only real difference is the lack of a cognitive aspect in the fabrials which further limits the functions avaiable to 1 as defined by the cut of the gem.

 

I think that makes sense.