Wild theory of Szeth's blade

[sonNeturo he/him]

Can Szeth's shardblade be in some way related to a magic system similar to Hemalurgy. As Szeth is not a Radiant yet has powers (sure it comes from the blade) and he is not able to hold stormlight as well or as long as Kaladin, so could Szeth's blade be related to Hemalurgy (or similar, their are many magic systems on Roshar that we don't know about and in the ars arcanum of alloy it says that Hemalurgy is the most interest to the Cosmere, or soething like that) as it gives weaker effects of the same power.

 

Feel free to poke holes    

[Isomere]

You could be onto something here. Some people think Shardblades can act like Fabrials and trap spren inside of them. I have also heard the idea that Szeth created his own Shardblade when he trapped an Honorspren, and that the weapon is materialized Odium. This fits with Brandon's comment that the are three types of shardblades, since cultivation and honor may also materialize in the same way.

[hoser he/him]

I don't think Szeth created the Shardblade. 

 

It doesn't relate to the main point here, but when Szeth talks with Taravangian, Taravangian says:

Given that monstrosity of a Shardblade by your people, ...

Szeth doesn't disagree, even though he is generally being contentious. 

 

So, I'm not saying that there isn't a spren trapped in the blade that gives Szeth his windrunner abilities.  I'm just saying that I doubt Szeth made the sword himself.   Taravangian seems to know what is going on in Shinovar very well, through spies or alliance, which explains how he could send his agents to find Szeth in the first place. 

[darkanimereal1]

I think you're on to something with Szeth's magic, though. Sanderson categorizes his magic into three kinds:

 

1) End-positive (ie Allomancy) - "the practicioner draws in power from an external source.[2] The practicioner gains power from the external source. The Investiture is positive in that it adds - in most cases temporarily--power to the practicioner. Most types of Investiture are end-positive."

2) End-neutral (ie Feruchemy) - "power is neither gained nor lost[2]. The praticioner disposes about his amount of power, making it neutral in that power that is invested into an object, can be withdrawn to reinstall the orginial amount of power."

3) End-negative (ie Hemalurgy) - "some power is lost.[2] It is negative in that it removes some power from someone. End-negative Investiture is very rare"

(Source)

 

I would guess that whatever kind of magic Szeth is using, it may be End-negative. It seems that Szeth loses Stormlight very quickly whereas Kaladin is able to hold it for an extended period of time.

 

Question: Is Kaladin naturally stronger than Szeth in using Stormlight? Szeth can only hold onto it for a few minutes, but Kaladin has been shown to hold onto it for much longer. Or does it have to do with Kaladin having a spren?

 

Brandon:  Ah, so you all noticed that, did you. Glad you did. I have like a dozen things I nearly posted here, but all of them spoil a scene in Words of Radiance. So I'll just zip it for now.

 

(Source)

 

It could also be that Szeth is end-neutral whereas Kaladin is end-positive--able to gain more than what he takes.

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

I have no quote, but I believe that Brandon has said that end-negative Investiture is exceedingly rare, and that hemalurgy is very unusual. I get the feeling that if variations on the same power existed elsewhere in the cosmere, the Arcanum writer would be a good deal less excited about it. That being said, Szeth could easily have another one of those rare end-negative Investitures - just likely not the same one.

Also, I believe hemalurgy is end-negative not because the donor loses power, but because some of the power is permanently destroyed, as per the Law of Hemalurgic Decay.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Wonko the Sane

[darkanimereal1]

3) End-negative (ie Hemalurgy) - "some power is lost.[2] It is negative in that it removes some power from someone. End-negative Investiture is very rare"

(Source)

 

I would guess that whatever kind of magic Szeth is using, it may be End-negative. It seems that Szeth loses Stormlight very quickly whereas Kaladin is able to hold it for an extended period of time.

 

If you look at my original post, I quoted the part that says End-negative is very rare. The official WoB is:

 

[*]Can all Investitures be classified as end-positive, neutral, or negative?

 

Yes, though in the overwhelming majority of cases, it's end-positive or at least neutral. Hemalurgy really is an oddity in the cosmere

(Source)

 

 

I have no quote, but I believe that Brandon has said that end-negative Investiture is exceedingly rare, and that hemalurgy is very unusual. I get the feeling that if variations on the same power existed elsewhere in the cosmere, the Arcanum writer would be a good deal less excited about it. That being said, Szeth could easily have another one of those rare end-negative Investitures - just likely not the same one.

 

So, basically, it's possible that Szeth's magic is End-negative, however highly unlikely (I'm basing this off of Brandon's use of "oddity" to describe Hemalurgy). So you make a good point.

 

However, it's still possible that Kaladin's surgebinding is End-positive while Szeth's is end-neutral.

 

Also, I believe hemalurgy is end-negative not because the donor loses power, but because some of the power is permanently destroyed, as per the Law of Hemalurgic Decay.

 

Sorry, I guess my wording was vague. I wasn't saying that a person loses power, but that power is lost in the transfer, which seems to be the case with Szeth vs. Kaladin--they're both drawing from similar sources, yet Kaladin seems to gain more of the Stormlight than Szeth does in the process, so theoretically Szeth my be losing some Stormlight when he transfers it from the sphere to himself--I don't know, is that more clear? 

[sonNeturo he/him]

yeah so I suppose Szeth and his shardblade are more likely to be end-neutral because Kaladin has his nahel bond with Syl (so end positive) whilst Szeth doesn't have a spren so will use stormlight less effectively. But I still think that there's a chance that Szeth's shardblade has something to do with an end-negative magic as I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that Szeth's blade is unique so maybe it's as Wonko says and he has a rare negative investiture

[SirShemmington VI]

Well on the theory, szeths blade was end negative: Well shardblades have investiture in huge ammounts, and they destroy it as well when they severe the spirit web? So presumably all humans have a small amount of investiture. So what if Szeths blade was made by stealing investiture by taking it from humans? (with a parallel to hemulurgy going on here) <-yay baseless theory yay 

[Leuthie]

Very few examples of end negative magic in Sanderson's works so far. Only examples I can think of are Hemalurgy, whatever Nightblood does that eats Breaths and the Dakhor transport spell that uses the life of a monk to transport another. And Nightbloods might not even be end negative. There may be more.

However, nothing I've seen Szeth do gives any indication that he's taking something from the physical realm to power his magic, which is how I interpret what Brandon means by end negative.

[Shardlet he/him]

I don't think Szeth created the Shardblade. 

It doesn't relate to the main point here, but when Szeth talks with Taravangian, Taravangian says:

Quote

Given that monstrosity of a Shardblade by your people, ...

Szeth doesn't disagree, even though he is generally being contentious.

 

 

This Quote got me musing on Szeth's blade.  The Honoblades and the Radiant Blades are huge and are apparently designed (I think Dalinar even says/thinks something to this effect) for fighting a huge entity.  Conversely, Szeth's blade is not huge and I picture it in my mind as being similarly sized and shaped as a katana.  It seems to me that Szeth's blade is designed to fight human-sized entities.  Presumably the Honorblades and the Radiant blades were never intended to be used on humans, hence their incredible power.  Whereas, that same incredible power has been invested in Szeth's blade, perhaps, for the express intent to destroy humans. 

 

It seems to me that this may be why Taravangian calls it a "monstrosity of a Shardblade".  A blade formed with a corrupt and evil intent.

 

Edit: Szeth's blade is obviously double edged.  So, clearly not a Katana per se.  That is just what I picture in my mind when I read Szeth.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Shardlet

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

Sorry, I guess my wording was vague. I wasn't saying that a person loses power, but that power is lost in the transfer, which seems to be the case with Szeth vs. Kaladin--they're both drawing from similar sources, yet Kaladin seems to gain more of the Stormlight than Szeth does in the process, so theoretically Szeth my be losing some Stormlight when he transfers it from the sphere to himself--I don't know, is that more clear?

Okay, sorry about the misunderstanding. I have no issues on this, then.

This Quote got me musing on Szeth's blade. The Honoblades and the Radiant Blades are huge and are apparently designed (I think Dalinar even says/thinks something to this effect) for fighting a huge entity. Conversely, Szeth's blade is not huge and I picture it in my mind as being similarly sized and shaped as a katana. It seems to me that Szeth's blade is designed to fight human-sized entities. Presumably the Honorblades and the Radiant blades were never intended to be used on humans, hence their incredible power. Whereas, that same incredible power has been invested in Szeth's blade, perhaps, for the express intent to destroy humans.

It seems to me that this may be why Taravangian calls it a "monstrosity of a Shardblade". A blade formed with a corrupt and evil intent.

Very good catch, and one worth pursuing. Edited June 6, 2013 by Wonko the Sane

[Shardlet he/him]

As to Sezth's surgebinding being end-neutral (or negative) in contrast to Kaladin's being end-positive, I see it a little differently.  For those of you who are mechanics, you will get this (maybe not agree, but...).  So, a car engine has pistons which move in cylinders to compress a fuel/air mixture in preparation for combustion.  The pistons have rings surrounding their periphery in order to form a seal (in conjucntion with engine oil).  When there is a leak in this seal it is called blow-by.  When you have blow=by the engine still functions but power is lost because some of the fuel/air mixture escapes the cylinder. Essentially, less fuel/air to burn pluss less initial compression of air/fuel mixture equals substantial loss of power from that cylinder.

 

My thoughts are that both Kaladin's and Szeth's surgebinding are end-positive, but that Szeth has blow-by.  His surgebinding is end-positive to a smaller degree than Kaladin's.

[The Rooster he/him]

As to Sezth's surgebinding being end-neutral (or negative) in contrast to Kaladin's being end-positive, I see it a little differently.  For those of you who are mechanics, you will get this (maybe not agree, but...).  So, a car engine has pistons which move in cylinders to compress a fuel/air mixture in preparation for combustion.  The pistons have rings surrounding their periphery in order to form a seal (in conjucntion with engine oil).  When there is a leak in this seal it is called blow-by.  When you have blow=by the engine still functions but power is lost because some of the fuel/air mixture escapes the cylinder. Essentially, less fuel/air to burn pluss less initial compression of air/fuel mixture equals substantial loss of power from that cylinder.

 

My thoughts are that both Kaladin's and Szeth's surgebinding are end-positive, but that Szeth has blow-by.  His surgebinding is end-positive to a smaller degree than Kaladin's.

 

Nice!  Realmatics obey the Thermodynaic law of Entropy, I love it!

[Azul he/him]

Something i've been toying around with for a bit concerning Szeth's blade  (may have been discussed before but i missed it).  Szeth says he can't use surges and plate at the same time as the plate interferes with it but we know from Dalinar's visions that Radiants in the past used both.  Also in the prelude it does not appear that the Heralds wear shardplate which I found a bit odd.   If theories are correct and Szeth's surges come from his shardblade could this be an indicator that he does in fact wield a Honorblade ?

[Leuthie]

WoB somewhere says we've seen 3 shardblades: regular, honorblades, and szethblade.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

WoB somewhere says we've seen 3 shardblades: regular, honorblades, and szethblade.

I think the WoBs have just been 'you've seen three kinds' and 'honorblades are shardblades'.  I could have missed something though.

[Senor Feesh]

Yeah, I don't think we ever had confirmation that Szethblade was a type-3, but it's a commonly held belief due to the temporary eye-change being described as a unique side-effect of the weapon.

I agree that any use of Windrunning should be considered end-positive, as power is being added from somewhere (in this case stormlight). The only end-negative system we've seen to date actually has a net loss of total available power. Szeth's imperfect lashings aren't power loss really, as he still had to get the power somewhere externally, and it's not lost in the same sense as a hemalurgic charge losing potency (or for that matter being ripped from another's spiritweb)

[Galavantes]

Agreed with Senor Fresh on all points. Szeth's use of stormlight is weaker than Kaladin's, and there may be more wasted power, but he still clearly gains power ultimately. 

 

Also WoB says 3 types of blades. And we've seen blades functioning in 3 distinct ways. So it seems pretty clear. Although Brandon is tricky and not to be trusted.  

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

Another thing to consider is the massive spike in efficiency Kaladin underwent when he spoke the Second Ideal of the Windrunners. The scene in which he first encounters the First Ideal is less definitive, but it seems likely that it would have a similar effect. Szeth may simply have access only to the baseline abilities of the Order; the "Zeroth Ideal," as it were.

[Isomere]

One reason most people think Szeth's blade is a third category is because of this quote. 

 

STALDUATH

After reading The Way of Kings, I couldn't help but to wonder this: hypothetically if there were two equally skilled combatants in every way, one armed with a Shardblade and the other with a Lightsaber, and take magic and the Force out of the equation (except for the weapons themselves), who would win? And yes, the Shardblade would have already been summoned and the two are just squaring off in a dual. Have fun with it.

BRANDON SANDERSON

A lightsaber is actually a little more easy to wield than a Shardblade, I would guess. Shardblades were designed to fight something larger than another person; you don't actually need all of that size when fighting someone. So that gives a slight edge to your average Jedi. If it's someone like Szeth, who has a more modestly sized Blade, then I don't honestly know. Source

 

To me it says the big shardblades were designed to fight Thunderclasts, and the little ones were designed to kill Humans. Intuitive leap to say one is from honor the other, not so much. 

 

 

MYCOLTBUG

Is there any ramifications to the holder of a shard blade for using a blade in a manner that it wasn't intended?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Depends on the type of Shardblade. (You have seen three different kinds in TWoK.) For most, no. For some, most certainly. Source

Most people assume this quote to mean there are only three types of shardblade, but reading it again it only says that we have already seen three kinds. That means it's possible we may encounter more types in future books.  It also gives us a tantalizing hint that actions are very important for only SOME shardbearers. I think it has to do with Identity. 

MISTBORN SPOILERS: I'd like to compare Snapping and saying the Ideals of the KR. In both cases the person already has the Investiture, the right sDNA and the right cultural heritage needed to access a magic system. In both cases personal experiences make them better able to use magic. One major difference though: Snapping is instant and absolute, and the Ideals are progressive. You can't snap twice and get additional power the second time, but with Surgebinding there is a process where your magic incrementally grows. 

I believe these both represent a person's Identity being Attuned to the local Shard, which allows more powerful use of magic. It seems on Scadrial this is a binary process (it is either on or off) while on Roshar it's sort of a cumulative effect of all the choices the person has made and the effects those choices have on the person's character. Becoming Honorable doesn't happen overnight and requires consistent adherence to Ideals. Giving lip-service to the ideals would likely not have the same effect as having the words spark in your mind as you progress on the path to become a KR. 

Now why did I say all this crap about Identity?  Well, just that using a Shardblade for a dishonorable purpose would estrange you from Honor. For most that wouldn't matter much, but for a surgebinder it would jeapordize their ability to wield the power of Honor. I think this is a very solid way to interpret the quote above.