Taravangian Wasn't Entirely Lying: A Taln Identity Theory

[Moogle]

Background

This post is intended as a way to reconcile the matter of Taln's swapped Blade and possible confused identity. Every theory on "Taln" does not have enough evidence to make a strong case on anything, and this one is no exception. Certain things will be stated without a thousand modifiers like "probably" and "it seems likely" in the spirit of brevity. Keep in mind that very little will be certain.

 

This post is probably going to be unable to convince people who aren't me, owing to the fact that it is built on a foundation of sand. However, despite just how incredibly lacking the evidence is, I do hold this as my current favored theory of explaining "Taln". (Not that I find it likely, just that I like it the most.)

 

A Missing Honorblade

Taravangian, attempting to persuade Szeth that the Radiants have not returned, utters this particular tidbit:

“No, no,” Taravangian said. “I have learned this only recently. Yes, it makes sense now. One of the Honorblades has vanished.”

Szeth blinked, and he focused on Taravangian, as if returning from a distant place. “One of the other seven?”

“Yes,” Taravangian said. “I have heard only hints. Your people are secretive. But yes . . . I see, it is one of the two that allow Regrowth. Kholin must have it.”

 

While at first obviously a lie (there is no way Kaladin had it, and Taravangian makes it clear that he knows this later), I do think this was not the sort of lie that you would come up with on the spot. Taravangian was going to die if he didn't come up with something, and he chose this.

 

I have no compelling argument for why it must be true that an Honorblade has gone missing from Shinovar. It is merely an unlikely possibility. But for the purposes of this theory, I am assuming that Taravangian did learn that an Honorblade had gone missing.

 

So, he was lying that it must be a Blade granting Regrowth (he did pause before uttering that, implying he was thinking fast...), but perhaps not that a Blade went missing.

 

Taln is Probably a Herald

Given Taln's superhuman ability and PoV of memories of Damnation, I think we can reasonably assume he is a Herald, if not necessarily Taln.

 

Taln's Swapped Blade

As we've discussed elsewhere, Taln's Blade was swapped. I think most assume he was wielding an Honorblade, and I think I must reluctantly agree. Here is the scene from the end of WoK:

Outside the gates, standing on the dark stone roadway, was a solitary man with dark skin. His hair was long and matted, his clothing nothing more than a ragged, sacklike length of cloth wrapping his waist. He stood with head bowed, wet, ratty hair hanging down over his face and mixing with a beard that had bits of wood and leaves stuck in it.
His muscles glistened, wet as if he’d just swum a great distance. To his side, he carried a massive Shardblade, point down, sticking about a finger’s width into the stone, his hand on the hilt. The Blade reflected torchlight; it was long, narrow, and straight, shaped like an enormous spike.

 

Something I think no one has brought up before: Taln's body is wet. Roshar has very very few natural rivers, and even if Taln had come from one, he should be dry by this point. What if "Taln" is wet because he was Surgebinding, and the frost covering him melted?

 

I will avoid bringing up issues of eye color for the moment (but if I were, I can totally explain things, I swear!), and simply wonder what Surge he was using. Szeth only is covered in frost when he expends great amounts of Stormlight; just taking it in is not enough.

 

How about the Surge of Transportation? If we look at the chart, we can see that Kalak's Blade's hilt looks roughly like a spike. It could be that.

 

Tying it Together

So... bear with me here. My theory here is that "Taln" is a confused Herald who snuck into the Stone Shaman's place and retrieved an Honorblade. (One possible escape route for him after doing this would be Transporting away.) My evidence is a lie from Taravangian and a few WoBs which could be Brandon trolling everyone. It's a pretty awful theory as things go. And yet... for some reason I almost think it could be true.

 

I mean, where else is that Honorblade going to have come from, if this isn't actually Taln? (Assuming it is an Honorblade. Which for eye color reasons I have issues with. But the wet body is hard to argue with...)

 

Anyone have any thoughts or points that could absolutely tear this apart? I mean, besides the obvious ones.

[Seloun]

I'm not really sure that the Taravangian quote is really any evidence. What else could Taravangian had said? Szeth saw definitively a Surgebinder; that means either KR or an Honorblade. Since agreeing it's KR leads to Szeth going crazy or at least realizing his oath is worthless, Taravangian literally had no other option but to claim it was an Honorblade. He didn't really 'choose' that lie so much as have it chosen by Szeth's words.

 

Regarding the wet - I always assumed it was related to why Shardblades are wet when summoned (something to do with the materialization process).

[Moogle]

I'm not really sure that the Taravangian quote is really any evidence. What else could Taravangian had said? Szeth saw definitively a Surgebinder; that means either KR or an Honorblade. Since agreeing it's KR leads to Szeth going crazy or at least realizing his oath is worthless, Taravangian literally had no other option but to claim it was an Honorblade. He didn't really 'choose' that lie so much as have it chosen by Szeth's words.

 

Regarding the wet - I always assumed it was related to why Shardblades are wet when summoned (something to do with the materialization process).

 

Kaladin would have summoned the Blade if he had it, so it's not like telling Szeth he had an Honorblade was a good move. Taravangian could have just told Szeth that Kaladin having Stormlight was a trick of Szeth's eyes, that it was a Regrowth fabrial, but he did not. He didn't really have any good explanations, so settling on an Honorblade is a rather odd one. (I suppose it could conceivably be the only one that doesn't have any direct irrefutable things behind it...)

 

My point was more that thinking up a lie like that on the spot is hard, and Taravangian was average, though. I still grant you're most likely right.

 

As to the materialization idea, that was one of my thoughts as well, if it were actually Taln. However, with the revelation that Shardblades are spren, I am less inclined to believe that.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Moogle

[hoser he/him]

From the confused ramblings in his POV, there is something wrong with "Taln."  The talk about the Gift that was never his and is now his suggests to me that there are identity issues.  Is Taln's mind just broken and it doesn't make any sense?  I choose to believe that it's meaningful.  It suggests to me that it is somebody else's mind in Taln's body or something of the sort. 

The wet could be the condensation thing or it could be related to the leaves and bits of wood. 

I tend to agree with Seloun that Mr. T's lie was forced.  He had to explain extraordinary healing in a way that Szeth would believe.  While we know that the Radiants had fabrials like Nale's, Szeth doesn't know of any.   The two healing Honorblades are the only explanation that Szeth is aware of for the healing that Kaladin performed. 

If the Shardblade that "Taln" uses at the gates of Kholinar is an Honorblade, then it can only be Kalak's or Taln's because it doesn't fit the description of the blades in the circle that Kalak gives in tWoK. 

The Heralds must have some Transportation ability even without the Honorblades.  Otherwise, if the two Heralds with Transportation were killed, the Oathpact would fall apart.  If the Heralds have the ability to travel and Mr. T's lies are more or less forced, this theory doesn't seem to explain anything that I can see. 

While I can't prove that it's not true (I'm not interested in even trying to prove a negative), the chance that the real story in Brandon's mind fits this pattern seems unlikely to me.  There are so many things we don't know about the Heralds, Roshar and the Cosmere that explaining things by combining the few things we know in this particular way is not compelling to me. 

[Moogle]

Thanks for your thoughts, hoser.

 

A few things:

• Leaves and bits of wood... don't make sense for Roshar. Plants retract from motion; Taln should never have been covered in leaves or wood. Your bringing them up makes me think Shinovar. Edit: Though I should note, forests apparently do exist on Roshar outside of Shinovar, so this is not as suspicious as originally assumed.
• Szeth likely knows of Soulcasters, so I cannot see the problem with Regrowth fabrials. I will again throw up my hands and say that Mr. T not lying is a position impossible to defend.
• The Honorblades have changed appearances over the years (Jezrien's used to be extremely ornamented), so I'm not sure we can say much on that. Edit: I was very wrong on this, Jezrien's Blade is never explicitly described.
• I don't agree Heralds need transportation ability for anything, unless you're referring to them having to return to Damnation? I imagine they'd just use a Shardpool for that, or have Odium transport them directly.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Moogle

[yurisses]

 

Clouds seemed less frequent here, in these windswept plains. Just the blazing sun broken by the furious highstorms. The rest of Roshar was influenced by the storms—but here in the East, the feral, untamed highstorms ruled supreme. Could any mortal king hope to claim these lands? There were legends of them being inhabited, of there being more than just unclaimed hills, desolate plains, and overgrown forests. Natanatan, the Granite Kingdom. (tWoK ch. 58)

 

There are forests in the Unclaimed Hills near Kholinar, apparently.

[Blaze1616 he/him]

Thanks for the theory Moogle! I find myself agreeing with you, so I'm not going to argue any points, but I would like to bring a couple possibilities to the table.

 

First, Taln being wet. Like you note, I haven't seen many talking about it, so your guess is as good as mine. One possibility is, should this Taln actually be Taln, the wetness is due to him reaching Roshar. We know Shardblades, when summoned, are wet. Perhaps Taln, being Taln, has experienced something similar. That being said, it could also be that the Shardblades are wet from Transportation, depending on how their mechanics work.

 

Second, in regards to Regrowth fabrials, outside of the ending of WoR, were there any other times where we think we've seen Regrowth fabrials? During my reread of WoK last week, Navani made a comment while showing the pain reducing fabrial to Adolin that rose a red flag. It was something along the line of "Yes, I know this fabrial is cool. It'll be cooler when, one day, we can actually heal using fabrials". That would imply that Regrowth fabrials don't actually exist, bringing to question what Nalan was using.

[Kelek's Breath he/him]

Well, the wetness can't be because of the Surge of Transportation, or else Jasnah would have been wet at the end of WoR, so if "Taln" did use it, it's from the place he is arriving from. But he must have excellent sense of direction because he shows up right outside the gates.

 

Second, in regards to Regrowth fabrials, outside of the ending of WoR, were there any other times where we think we've seen Regrowth fabrials?

Dalinar sees something that may be a regrowth fabrial in a vision, where a Radiant of the Stonewards heals him and Taffa. He doesn't call it that because he has never seen anything like it, or doesn't expect fabrials to heal people the way it did.

On an another note, how does a Herald show up to warn people with sack-like clothing? Is that how they showed up during every Desolation?

[Moogle]

Second, in regards to Regrowth fabrials, outside of the ending of WoR, were there any other times where we think we've seen Regrowth fabrials? During my reread of WoK last week, Navani made a comment while showing the pain reducing fabrial to Adolin that rose a red flag. It was something along the line of "Yes, I know this fabrial is cool. It'll be cooler when, one day, we can actually heal using fabrials". That would imply that Regrowth fabrials don't actually exist, bringing to question what Nalan was using.

 

We see a Radiant using a healing fabrial in WoK during one of Dalinar's visions. She is a Stoneward, but refers to using "Regrowth".

 

Edit: Ninja'd.

 

On an another note, how does a Herald show up to warn people with sack-like clothing? Is that how they showed up during every Desolation?

 

Kalak refers to Jezrien wearing ruined finery in the Prelude. I'd guess no. I don't see why Odium would bother giving them any clothes after burning their flesh repeatedly. My money is on them either wearing what they had when they went to Damnation, or returning stark naked and Soulcasting themselves a few clothes and using some Lightweaving to hide their nakedness in the interim.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Moogle

[Blaze1616 he/him]

Dalinar sees something that may be a regrowth fabrial in a vision, where a Radiant of the Stonewards heals him and Taffa. He doesn't call it that because he has never seen anything like it, or doesn't expect fabrials to heal people the way it did.

 

 

We see a Radiant using a healing fabrial in WoK during one of Dalinar's visions. She is a Stoneward, but refers to using "Regrowth".

 

Ah yes, good point. So Taravangian likely wouldn't know about them, but it is reasonable for Nalan to have one.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Didn't the WoR revisions Brandon make change how Nale did what he did?

Instead of using a Fabrial, he used an Honourblade?

So maybe what Mr T said wasn't a complete lie (granted, this wouldn't make any sense prior to revisions, but now the question is when Nale get it?)

Edited July 16, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[DreamEternal]

Didn't the WoR revisions Brandon has made change how Nale did what he did?

Instead of using a Fabrial, he used an Honourblade?

So maybe what Mr T said wasn't a complete lie (granted, this wouldn't make any sense prior to revisions, but now the question is when Nale get the blade?)

Actualy, Brandon just changed the phrasing from "fabrial" to "surgebinding", but he still put a fabrial in his pocket after healing Szeth. Same power, different ways of using it.

Edited July 16, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[hoser he/him]

What is the evidence for extreme ornamentation of Jezrien's blade? Kalak describes the seven (not including his own, Taln's and Jezrien's) as being ornate, but I'm not aware of a description of Jezrien's that makes it anything but simple and elegant.

[DreamEternal]

What is the evidence for extreme ornamentation of Jezrien's blade? Kalak describes the seven (not including his own, Taln's and Jezrien's) as being ornate, but I'm not aware of a description of Jezrien's that makes it anything but simple and elegant.

It is just a general assumption that all honourades were equaly ornamented or assuming that Kalak was talking about all honorblades, since it was an ambiguous passage.

Edited July 16, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Oudeis he/him]

May I take this opportunity to compliment you, Moogle, on your excellent disclaimer in the OP?

 

• Szeth likely knows of Soulcasters, so I cannot see the problem with Regrowth fabrials.

 

 

Dalinar sees something that may be a regrowth fabrial in a vision, where a Radiant of the Stonewards heals him and Taffa. He doesn't call it that because he has never seen anything like it, or doesn't expect fabrials to heal people the way it did.

 

At the end of that vision, he expressly says that it was weird because he didn't see any fabrials, anywhere. So, even seeing a ReGrowth fabrial, he doesn't recognize that it's even a fabrial. To him, it's apparently just something Knights Radiant can do.

 

Until the Oathgates (and we're not even positive there) the only "fabrial" we've seen imitate a Surge have been Soulcasters. We, the readers, assume (and I think we have WoB) that "Ancient Fabrials" like the Soulcasters are all models of the Ten Surges, but the modern people of Roshar don't seem to grasp that, and have no examples other than Soulcasters.

 

One small part of your theory seems to be that Taravangian could have chosen any of dozens of possible explanations, and chose Honorblades because it had a kernel of truth. I disagree. The only possible other examples you've given have been the Regrowth fabrial, which I think most of us here think is extremely unlikely, or that Szeth was simply mistaken in what he saw. Since "what he saw" was, I cut your arm with my Shardblade, your sleeve is shorn off and the skin is grey, now suddenly you're glowing and magically your arm works again, I do not believe "trick of the light" was going to explain anything.

 

I personally can think of no other explanation Taravangian could have given. Can you provide any?

 

As for "it's not the kind of lie you just think of," one section of the Diagram talks about creating another Truthless. Clearly, 'people armed with Honorblades' is a thing Taravangian has spent some time working on. I think it's not so unusual that this concept is something that would come to him when he needed a lie.

 

I don't see why Odium would bother giving them any clothes after burning their flesh repeatedly.

 

Well, this is Mr. Sanderson, self-proclaimed prude. There are some tropes he has no interest in subverting.

 

 

It is just a general assumption that all honourades were equaly ornamented or assuming that Kalak was talking about all honorblades, since it was an ambiguous passage.

 

The passage isn't ambiguous at all; he specifically looks at the seven Blades, and calls them "masterly works of art". Nothing about the sentence or statement makes it seem as though he's generalizing about all Honorblades; he expressly means these.

[hoser he/him]

 

Thanks for your thoughts, hoser.

 

A few things:

• ...
• The Honorblades have changed appearances over the years (Jezrien's used to be extremely ornamented), so I'm not sure we can say much on that.
• I don't agree Heralds need transportation ability for anything, unless you're referring to them having to return to Damnation? I imagine they'd just use a Shardpool for that, or have Odium transport them directly.

 

 

It is just a general assumption that all honourades were equaly ornamented or assuming that Kalak was talking about all honorblades, since it was an ambiguous passage.

Moogle's assertion about Jezrien's Honorblade seems too strong for a general assumption.  There is no ambiguity about the set of blades that Kalak describes that I am aware of.  In the absence of evidence for Jezrien's blade changing, I can't see any justification for asserting that it has done so.  Unsupported statements by staff with otherworldly reputation are likely to be repeated as fact and become canards. 

[EvilNuff]

I guess I just don't understand why people don't think he really is Taln.  That is the only thing that makes sense so why the efforts to create theories that he is someone else?

[Oudeis he/him]

Unsupported statements by staff with otherworldly reputation are likely to be repeated as fact and become canards. 

 

Thank you.

 

I guess I just don't understand why people don't think he really is Taln.

 

The only reason I even question it, I asked Mr. Sanderson a question at a signing once in person and he referred to, "The man who calls himself Taln." I mostly think he was just trolling us, but the seed of doubt has been planted.

 

At the end of that vision, he expressly says that it was weird because he didn't see any fabrials, anywhere.

 

For reference, I found the quote. Chapter 60.

 

"And the Dawncities?" Navani asked skeptically. "The fabrials?"

Dalinar shook his head. "I've seen neither."

[natc]

I guess I just don't understand why people don't think he really is Taln. That is the only thing that makes sense so why the efforts to create theories that he is someone else?

Because Brandon keeps teasing with "I never said he was actually Taln".

[Blaze1616 he/him]

Unsupported statements by staff with otherworldly reputation are likely to be repeated as fact and become canards. 

 

This complaint has been raised to Moogle on more than one occasion, and he's apologized profusely for any confusion he might be causing. If you didn't notice, this thread started with an excellent disclaimer. In addition, I find it hard to believe that Moogle is responsible for all the cases of 'theories thrown around as facts', and I think it's high time we stop beating this dead horse. Moogle is a valuable member of this community, and even when I disagree with his theories I find them to be thought provoking and in trying to defend or refute them I often find myself reevaluating my own theories.

 

Though I agree that language which insinuates that theories are facts should be avoided, can we not just let the man present his theories to get our feedback? I'd rather have the additional contributor and have to correct those who believe his theories to be true, than to not have to correct them but also be lacking Moogle's input. Particularly when he's begun to try and alleviate the problem.

 

---

 

In regards to evidence of Jezrien's honorblade changing, I do believe we have WoB stating that it's appearance has shifted since Szeth began to wield it, if it wasn't stated outright in the novels. I'll have to try to find it though.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Actualy, Brandon just changed the phrasing from "fabrial" to "surgebinding", but he still put a fabrial in his pocket after healing Szeth. Same power, different ways of using it.

 

This is true but wasn't there a WoB saying that Heralds couldn't Surgebind unless they had the Honourblades? Hold on...here it is

 

 

 

  INTERVIEW: Mar 20th, 2014

WOR Signing Report - IronCaf (Paraphrased)

RYBAL

Can the Heralds Surgebind without their Blades and if not are they under the same restrictions that others are?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Heralds without their Blades are incapable of the powers you're familiar with. It doesn't mean there aren't other things they can do.

Which is still strange, cause why would he still have a fabrial if the word was changed to Surgebinding..hmm, might just be to give more context to the original passage

Edited July 16, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[DreamEternal]

This is true but wasn't there a WoB saying that Heralds couldn't Surgebind unless they had the Honourblades? Hold on...here it is

He didn't surgebind himself, he used a fabrial. It is like an ardent using a soulcaster, it can be considered surgebinding but the ardent isn't a surgebinder.

Edited July 16, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[natc]

I vaguely remember Szeth mentioning how his blade is unusually lacking in ornamentation (which certainly makes it sound far from being a masterwork of art), but I haven't read WoK in a while. Should take another look tomorrow while I finish this book I'm reading.

Edited July 16, 2015 by natc

[Blaze1616 he/him]

All right, this is the only WoB pertaining to Szeth's Blade's size on Theoryland:

 

Source

QUESTION

Is Szeth's sword noticeably smaller than other shardblades?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

 

This doesn't outright state that Jezrien's Blade has changed, it heavily hints at the fact. Though Jezrien's blade isn't directly commented on in the prelude, I feel it's a reasonable train of logic to assume Jezrien's Blade has changed given Kalak doesn't speak to the blade not being similar to the other 7. For reference, here's Kalak's observations:

 

 

But no. Kalak frowned as he stepped up to the base of the spire. Seven magnificent swords stood proudly here, driven point-first into the stone ground. Each was a masterly work of art, flowing in design, inscribed with glyphs and patterns. He recognized each one. If their masters had died, the Blades would have vanished.

 

 

Jezrien walked back to the ring of swords. His own Blade formed in his hands, appearing from mist, wet with condensation. "It has been decided, Kalak. We will go our ways, and we will not seek out one another. Our Blades must be left. The Oathpact ends now." He lifted his sword and rammed it into the stone with the other seven.

 

The fact that Kalak doesn't remark on how Jezrien's Blade is different is what convinces me that his sword originally looked like the others. That would then inherently imply a change in the Blade's appearance.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Blaze1616

[Oudeis he/him]

He didn't surgebind himself, he used a fabrial. It is like an ardent using a soulcaster, it can be considered surgebinding but the ardent isn't a surgebinder.

 

You raise an interesting point. Your contention seems to be that the phrase "surgebinder" means, specifically, someone with a Nahel bond to a spren on their way to being a Knight Radiant.

 

I've wondered about this. Does the connection between an Ardent and a Soulcaster count as a Nahel bond? Is there a spren involved? Is there a type of spren that turns into Surge fabrials? Would a Lifespren, for example, turn into a Regrowth fabrial? Is that where Regrowth fabrials came from?

 

Is one a Surgebinder by having the ability to bind a Surge? Is one a Worldhopper if one "catches the bus", as it were, to another world, even if one lacks personal Worldhopping magic? If an Elsecaller were to take her squires to Scadrial, are they all Worldhoppers, or just the one with the agency to Worldhop? The Heralds seem to be shuttled against their will between Roshar and Braize. Are they Worldhoppers? Are they the Worldhopped?

 

The fact that Kalak doesn't remark on how Jezrien's Blade is different is what convinces me that his sword originally looked like the others. That would then inherently imply a change in the Blade's appearance.

 

 

For comparison, I'm going to point out Taln, as we're discussing in another thread. In his Interlude, he's described as being barely legible, with only a few words making actual sense, and his accent is thick and sounds Norther Alethi. Then when Shallan talks to him, she understands every word, and he has no trace of an accent.

 

Then, at the end of the book, Amaram is in his presence. He doesn't flat-out state whether or not he can understand Taln, we only have confirmation that he makes out two words, and he says nothing on the accent.

 

By your reasoning, which is it? Since he doesn't say "he has an accent" should we assume he has an accent, or since he doesn't say "he doesn't have an accent" should we assume he has an accent?

 

If you want to believe it yourself, that's fine. But you cannot reasonably contend that something must be one way because it's not expressly described as another way, without the burden of proof that it would have been totally weird for him to describe it another way. Kalak has seen this Blade hundreds, maybe thousands of times, it doesn't currently have his attention, it's non-anomalous, and other, much much bigger and more important things are going on in his life just at the moment. There is absolutely no reason to find it suspicious that he doesn't say, "Jezrien summoned his own Blade, which looked very very different from the others." It's just Jezrien's blade. Every so often, someone interact with Shallan without thinking to themselves, "My, her hair is red," and that's, if anything, far more unique among the Warcamps than one Blade out of eight.