Why are Bronze burners able to hear The Well of Ascension?

[kroen]

I don't think we have an answer to this (if so please enlighten me), so I have a theory: It wasn't the well that made the Allomantic beats/pulses, it was the Lerasium beads. Now the next part is going to sound crazy, but bear with me: I think than an exceptionally gifted, trained and savant Seeker would be able to hear the Allomantic beats of every Allomantic metal, even if it isn't being burned. It's just that a powerful metal like Lerasium is easier to be heard. With practice, I expect Atium could be also be heard even if isn't burned, and with much more training and a starting base of powerful Allomancy all other Allomantic metals could also be heard. This is a feat I believe Mistborns would never be able to master as they don't pay much attention to every single metal, and least of all Bronze and Copper. Maybe a double-bronze Mistborn could, but only if they paid special attention to Bronze. Who knows, maybe that's how Steel Inquisitors had such a relatively easy time finding Allomancers. It's a highly inefficient process to only find Allomancers who are currently burning their metal, but if they could hear the metals themselves then they could know, for example, that Skaa X is carrying a Y metal with him.

 

...or maybe Steel/Iron burners can, with enough practice, discern what metal each of the Allomantic lines represents. But this doesn't answer why would The Well of Ascension produce Allomantic pulses.

 

 

Edit: And an unrelated question which I don't think justified its own thread: Do Copperclouds stack? I mean, if there are two Smokers next to each other and they're burning Copper, would a double-Bronze Allomancer be able to pierce the double Coppercloud?

Edited May 1, 2013 by kroen

[Kurkistan]

I'm going to doubt you on both counts here, sorry.

 

First of all, I don't think that Vin was detecting the Lerasium, because that Lerasium was sitting literally right next to a larger, more active, and more accessible version of itself. Recall that Seekers detect "a ripple of sound in the fabric of creation itself—the power of creation being used, creating a drum beat to those attuned to it." Also recall that Lerasium is essentially the same stuff as in the Well, only solid and with a lot less power, what with it's inability to move planets. Beyond that, it was inactive at the time.

 

As far as just being able to detect inactive Lerasium/Atium: maybe. A small maybe. Those two metals are unique in that they have power in and of themselves, instead of simply being the "form" that keys for Allomantic power like all the normal metals. That power is usually pretty firmly locked down, though, so I don't think that they'd cause much discernible "rippling." Vin, super-seeker extraordinaire  could barely detect the Well, which was orders of magnitude more powerful than a few beads of god metals. Perhaps she could have detected the Atium cache, given its size, though.

 

For normal metals, I'm just going to give a flat no. Iron, pewter, etc. work only insofar as they key for specific Allomantic powers: they do not have any power by themselves. So unless someone is burning them, you're not going to get anything.

[kroen]

Tnx, it makes sense. But that leads me to another question: If Seekers are able to detect rippes in the fabric of creation, why can't they detect Allomancers not burning their metals? Every human has a part of Preservation. That part might be too small to detect normally, but Allomancers have more of Preservation in them. Wouldn't Allomancers create rippels in the fabric of creation around them?

Edited May 1, 2013 by kroen

[Kurkistan]

I think we really have to look at scale here. I would hazard that, if the Well is an ocean, then Lerasium is a puddle, and people are drops of water. Even if an Allomancer is twice as Preservationy as a normal person (which I doubt, I would guess that Allomancers are only a smidgen more well-Preserved than normal people), that's still just two drops of water.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Kurkistan

[kroen]

Vin heard the well, though, from massive distances. Weren't the pulses stronger the closest she got to the Well? I don't imagine an Allomancer's pulse being heard from across the world, just if you're very close to him. Maybe even only if you physically touch him. That could be useful.

[Kurkistan]

I would still guess not, from both a gut level and in terms of the vast differences in power. Yes, Ruin's mere presence is enough to set off bells, but I think we're looking at orders of magnitude of difference: the Allomancer who could differentiate between muggles and Allomancers, then, would have to have princess-level power to discern the pea's worth of Preservation.

[kroen]

Okay, so maybe not.

 

On a related note, didn't Brandon hinted on there being away to detect Feruchemical and Hemalurgical use? I wonder how.

[Kurkistan]

I don't recall if he mentioned Hemalurgy, but a skilled Seeker can detect Feruchemy, I'm fairly sure.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if it was both a question of question of power and of skill/discernment. Vin can detect both Ruin and Preservation's power quite directly, despite them not being Allomantic pulses, with only their relative faintness, it seems, stopping others from doing so.  I'd hazard that it's the same for Feruchemy, along, perhaps, with Seekers not really looking for it.

 

The Feruchemist probably has to be actively tapping/storing in order to be detected at all, also. Actually, it's probably just tapping, since storing tends to be fairly small-scale; besides that, I'm unsure as to whether storing power away, as opposed to introducing it, creates the same "ripples" in the fabric of the world. So, if storing is undetectable, it would either be because it's too weak or because it's inherently undetectable, or some combination.

 

On the side of tapping, tapping large amounts is probably more detectable, given the increased amount of Investiture being used in the world. So I wouldn't be surprised if you need a relatively strong, relatively discerning Seeker relatively close to a Ferring (his relative, perhaps ) surging together a large amount of an attribute in order for it to be easily detectable.

[kroen]

If Seekers can actually detect Feruchemy then that makes Seekers some of the most versatile Allomancers around. Which is good, since most Allomancers tend to underestimate Seekers.

 

Btw, do you have any idea if Copperclouds stack?

[Voidus]

I think we had a discussion about Copperclouds stacking a while back and that they probably don't, but I don't know where the thread is.

[kroen]

I think we had a discussion about Copperclouds stacking a while back and that they probably don't, but I don't know where the thread is.

Well apparently Coinshots/Lurchers stack, Soothers/Rioters stack, and I think time bubbles of the same type also stack. So why not Copperclouds?

[Voidus]

Well Copper's Internal while all of those are external, and the internal metals can't stack obviously, although copper was always weird for an internal metal.

[Kurkistan]

^Yeah, copper is weird. In fact, based on its weirdness, I hereby posit that talk of "clouds" is, in fact, highly misleading for how copper actually works.

 

Given that we know that copper can absorb/negate the Investiture of Rioters/Soothers aiming at the Smoker, as well potentially shield the emotions of others, what if copper actually actively absorbs Investiture, rather than masking it? So the Investiture aimed at a Smoker is absorbed because it's right in the middle of the cloud and/or he automatically defends himself with his absorbtion-powers, while the "ripples" that Seekers detect are actually comprised of energy themselves, energy which the Smoker can take in and counteract with his own copper-fueled energy, to an extent. So a skilled Smoker would be able to consciously extend the scope of his absorbtion to include Rioting/Soothing directed at others.

 

This seems to solve a bit of weirdness, since Copper is supposed to be both internal and pulling, yet doesn't seem to do either when you think of a Smoker as actually establishing some miasma of negation, rather than the Smoker's range simply being a measure of how far out he's reaching to absorb stuff.

 

"Piercing" a coppercloud, then, is simply a matter of reading whatever left-overs the Smoker isn't strong enough to eliminate. This claim in particular could decide my ad hoc theory, since we have some stuff from the books to evaluate it on. I don't have my copies handy, but did Vin mention Kelsier's pulses being abnormally weak when they tested her cloud-piercing?

Edited May 1, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Satsuoni]

A possibly relevant quote from the book:

Bronze pulses thumped weakly, faint, almost unnoticeable—like someone playing drums very quietly. They were muffled by a coppercloud. The person—whoever it was—thought that their copper would hide them.

So far, Vin hadn’t left anyone alive, save Elend and Marsh, who knew of her strange power.

Vin crept forward, fingers and toes chilled by the roof’s copper sheeting. She tried to determine the direction of the pulses. Something was . . . odd about them. She had trouble distinguishing the metals her enemy was burning. Was that the quick, beating thump of pewter? Or was it the rhythm of iron? The pulses seemed indistinct, like ripples in a thick mud.

This is how Preservation (probably) is felt. For most people, copper-like pulse would jam everything else. By the way, do we have confirmation that all Seekers heard the well? I know Vin could hear them without burning at the end:

And I hear those rhythms in my head—majestic, powerful thumpings, like Allomantic pulses. Only, I don’t need bronze anymore to hear them.

But she was attuned and groomed for power since her birth. Could any random Seeker hear it and decide to take a dip?

 

As for Feruchemy, I once had the theory that it didn't produce pulses per se. I likened Allomancy to AC power, and Feruchemy to DC, so that the seeker would feel more of constant pressure rather than a pulse. Brandon did say about it being "different", but I can't find the quote (the same one Kurk refers to above).

 

[Edit] : As for absorption... maybe. I still think of it as jamming, but I've been wrong before, as my title can attest. I think that is what Aluminium does though - unlike all or most other metals, instead of giving Investiture it sucks it away, flaring all metals like duralumin, but backwards, into Preservation, so you instantly lose your ability to feel the metals - including Aluminum, until it burns away. Other question is why it also instantly disappears, but that can be explained in many ways - like for example, that it doesn't, it just keeps burning until it runs out, Allomancer no longer capable of feeling or controlling it. Likewise, its ability to protect one from emotional Allomancy, etc.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Satsuoni

[Senor Feesh]

^Yeah, copper is weird. In fact, based on its weirdness, I hereby posit that talk of "clouds" is, in fact, highly misleading for how copper actually works.

 

Given that we know that copper can absorb/negate the Investiture of Rioters/Soothers aiming at the Smoker, as well potentially shield the emotions of others, what if copper actually actively absorbs Investiture, rather than masking it? So the Investiture aimed at a Smoker is absorbed because it's right in the middle of the cloud and/or he automatically defends himself with his absorbtion-powers, while the "ripples" that Seekers detect are actually comprised of energy themselves, energy which the Smoker can take in and counteract with his own copper-fueled energy, to an extent. So a skilled coppercloud would be able to consciously extend the scope of his absorbtion to include Rioting/Soothing directed at others.

 

This seems to solve a bit of weirdness, since Coppers supposed to be both internal and pulling, yet doesn't seem to do either when you think of a Smoker as actually establishing some miasma of negation, rather than the Smoker's range simply being a measure of how far out he's reaching to absorb stuff.

 

"Piercing" a coppercloud, then, is simply a matter of reading whatever left-overs the Smoker isn't strong enough to eliminate. This claim in particular could decide my ad hoc theory, since we have some stuff from the books to evaluate it on. I don't have my copies handy, but did Vin mention Kelsier's pulses being abnormally weak when they tested her cloud-piercing?

 

This intrigues me, and it certainly does explain Copper as an Internal Pulling metal. It throws Bronze for me now though. As a pushing metal, this would make a Seeker something like a sonar, sending 'pings' out which on contact with someone else burning metals are distorted and bounce back. This is somehow counter-intuitive, unless you speculate that what it bounces off is a separate pulse, or ripple, caused by that burning. This would allow it to remain consistent with the speculation of the power having a certain 'pulse' or 'wavelength' associated with it when accessed by an Allomancer (otherwise, it would just bounce off each allomancer with no identifiable pattern that Seekers can learn to read).

[kroen]

I wonder if Seekers can detect other magic systems from other planets in the Cosmere.

[WeiryWriter]

I wonder if Seekers can detect other magic systems from other planets in the Cosmere.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they could.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Well Copper's Internal while all of those are external, and the internal metals can't stack obviously, although copper was always weird for an internal metal.

I wouldn't really use internalness/externalness as a metric here.

Anyway, with respect to detecting/not detecting allomancers, I think the difference here is that things actively channeling power make a noise, and things that aren't don't. When Ruin is projecting himself, he's actually doing something with his shardic stuff.

Incidentally, would be an interesting question to ask what bronze-burners would have heard during Vin's actions as Preservation or during Sazed's ascension.

[Khmauv]

A possibly relevant quote from the book:

This is how Preservation (probably) is felt. For most people, copper-like pulse would jam everything else. By the way, do we have confirmation that all Seekers heard the well? I know Vin could hear them without burning at the end:

But she was attuned and groomed for power since her birth. Could any random Seeker hear it and decide to take a dip?

 

As for Feruchemy, I once had the theory that it didn't produce pulses per se. I likened Allomancy to AC power, and Feruchemy to DC, so that the seeker would feel more of constant pressure rather than a pulse. Brandon did say about it being "different", but I can't find the quote (the same one Kurk refers to above).

 

[Edit] : As for absorption... maybe. I still think of it as jamming, but I've been wrong before, as my title can attest. I think that is what Aluminium does though - unlike all or most other metals, instead of giving Investiture it sucks it away, flaring all metals like duralumin, but backwards, into Preservation, so you instantly lose your ability to feel the metals - including Aluminum, until it burns away. Other question is why it also instantly disappears, but that can be explained in many ways - like for example, that it doesn't, it just keeps burning until it runs out, Allomancer no longer capable of feeling or controlling it. Likewise, its ability to protect one from emotional Allomancy, etc.

I was wondering about this as well. IIRC Sazed has no record of Allomancy before Rashek Ascended. Yet Alendi felt the pulses. Is it possible that there were allomancers before TLR that didn't recognize their powers or is the ability to sense the thumping from the well a different ability all together

 

On the topic of copperclouds, I like the idea of a seeker "pinging" for allomancy. The pings could be resonating with the spiritual vibrations of the allomantic power amplifying it so the seeker can "hear" it better. Each seeker having their own frequency would interfere with other seekers pinging. If this were the case could it then be possible for a seeker to tune in to another seekers pings to search without revealing themselves? 

 

A smoker then would be damping the pings signal. A higher "power" ping would require more damping to keep the resonant amplification from generating a return signal. Therefore it makes sense that a double copper ping could overpower the damping. It would also mean that a smoker could potentially flare their metals to mask even better.       

Edited May 1, 2013 by Khmauv

[WeiryWriter]

I was wondering about this as well. IIRC Sazed has no record of Allomancy before Rashek Ascended. Yet Alendi felt the pulses. Is it possible that there were allomancers before TLR that didn't recognize their powers or is the ability to sense the thumping from the well a different ability all together

 

Their was Allomancy before Rashek took the power at the Well but their were only mistings, no mistborn.  Alendi was a Seeker, and he had hemalurgic spikes.

[Chaos]

If Seekers can actually detect Feruchemy then that makes Seekers some of the most versatile Allomancers around. Which is good, since most Allomancers tend to underestimate Seekers.

 

Btw, do you have any idea if Copperclouds stack?

 

I think we had a discussion about Copperclouds stacking a while back and that they probably don't, but I don't know where the thread is.

I am absolutely, 100% certain that copperclouds do stack, but I can't find a quote that says that. I am pretty sure Brandon told me this a while ago, perhaps when we were less good at citing stuff. But I am very certain about this, because I have a character in the Mistborn RPG who uses coppercloud stacking, and I remember being very pleased when that was confirmed to actually work. Sorry I don't have a citation for you, though :/

[Senor Feesh]

 I am absolutely, 100% certain that copperclouds do stack, but I can't find a quote that says that. I am pretty sure Brandon told me this a while ago, perhaps when we were less good at citing stuff. But I am very certain about this, because I have a character in the Mistborn RPG who uses coppercloud stacking, and I remember being very pleased when that was confirmed to actually work. Sorry I don't have a citation for you, though :/

 

I can actually see (from our speculations about Copper 'absorbing' Seeker pings) a logic that allows for stacking. Put simply, there are now two Smokers 'absorbing' the incoming pulse from the Seeker, making it twice as unlikely that anything will bounce back to the Seeker.

[kroen]

Their was Allomancy before Rashek took the power at the Well but their were only mistings, no mistborn.  Alendi was a Seeker, and he had hemalurgic spikes.

Sorry, but how do you know this?

[Khmauv]

Their was Allomancy before Rashek took the power at the Well but their were only mistings, no mistborn.  Alendi was a Seeker, and he had hemalurgic spikes.

whoa, he was a seeker and had hemalurgic spikes too? Where does this info come from? 

[Windrunner]

They were the "Piercings of the Hero".

VEGASDEV (16 OCTOBER 2008)

Alendi's "Piercings of the Hero"?

BRANDON SANDERSON (17 OCTOBER 2008)

This is part of the manipulation Ruin did during the classical era on Scadrial, before the coming of the Lord Ruler. Piercings, and Hemalurgy, were part of the world before the coming of Allomancy in its modern form. Then, they were seen as a means of communicating with deity—which, indeed, they were. Ruin manipulated this to make sure any Hero of Ages who came would be under his influence. The reference is included mostly to indicate that yes, Alendi was under Ruin's influence. He ignored Rashek, though. (At least, right up to the moment when everything went 'wrong' for Ruin, when Rashek killed his chosen Hero of Ages.)

 

 

Also, as a note, Alendi was an Allomancer, as the epigraph notes here. He had to be—he heard the pulsing at the Well of Ascension when nobody else could. "Ah," you might say, "but I thought that you said Allomancy didn't exist before those beads." That isn't 100% true. The legends say that Allomancy came with the Deepness. Alendi was one of the very first Allomancers, and he gained his powers as the mists began to cover the world.

That's important.

Because, of course, he was Snapped by the mists, like is happening to people in this book.