A Semi-Objective Look at a Herald's Identity

[Witborn]

The point of this thread is to gather information about the possible identity of the herald who appears at the end of tWoK. The information I'm looking for are WoBs and textual descriptions of heralds or possible heralds. Hopefully we can also discuss what the evidence actually means as well. I'll try to update this first post with all our evidence and give credit for providing it. Spoilers for WoR will most definitely be in this thread. Anything I put in spoiler tags will be for length.

 

We start with this WoB which seems to put to rest any argument:

INTERVIEW: Jul 2nd, 2011

Fantasy Faction Interview (Verbatim)

MARC APLIN

Okay, the next question we have-I think this one you might have answered before-but have we met all the main point-of-view characters yet? Or, if not, what percentage are we talking?

BRANDON SANDERSON

You have met almost all of them. Let me do a count... Let's see. The main characters in the book are-in the series-Kaladin, and Dalinar, Adolin, Jasnah, Shallan, and Navani, whom you all met in this book and most of them had viewpoints. Szeth, Taravangian, and Taln. And one of the other Heralds; I'm not going to tell you who that is. But I think you've met...you have, I'm sure, met that person; I know he's in there. And so, I think you've met them all, basically. Taln is the person who shows up in the epilogue.

 

But then we get this quote, which may be Brandon trolling, or it might not. It is three years after the first one.

INTERVIEW: Mar 19th, 2014

WoR Signing Report - darkanimereal1 and luke (Verbatim)

QUESTION ()

Are the Heralds actually aware that Taln is back?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Are the Heralds aware that Taln is back? Uh, you're implying that this person actually is Taln. [The smile on Brandon's face at this moment was the best, most excruciatingly awful smile ever. And we thought Peter was a tease.] Which is not guaranteed. It's not guaranteed. However, the return of the Voidbringers does indeed indicate to them, in their mind, that he would have returned.

 

Brandon's ambivalence as to whether or not that is Taln, or that he returned at all, seems rather pronounced. So if it isn't Taln, who is it? From another WoB, it appears that even if it isn't Taln, it's definitely a Herald (and again we see a mention of it possibly not being Taln:

INTERVIEW: Sep 24th, 2013

Steelheart Release Party (Verbatim)

QUESTION

At the end of The Way of Kings, it was probably clear enough but I didn't understand it, with Wit, was it the actual Herald or was it someone else.

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Herald is the one that collapsed on the ground all shaggy haired with a shardblade. He claimed to be Talenel, who is the one they were talking about in the Prelude, whether or not he actually is is yet to be seen.

 

Since half of the Heralds are female, that means there are five choices for who that Herald might be: Ishar, Taln, Kalak, Jezrien, and Nale. I don't have evidence for all the Heralds but it could possibly be any of them (yes even Nale, since we don't know for sure it's him. Given the mental state of Heralds it could be another Herald confused as to who he is, much like our Taln, maybe) 

 

Evidence for it being Taln:

- He says his name is Taln, not only in tWoK but also in WoR

- In the Prelude to the Stormlight Archive,the narrator, seemingly from Kalak's perspective, calls Taln "The one of them who was lost." and Wit in the Epilogue says to the man who appears, "Welcome, lost one."

- Taln is the herald of the Stonewards, called Stonesinew. Descriptions of the unidentified Herald describe him with stone-like words.

• tWoK Epilogue: "All was chaos and confusion as the gate thumped yet a third time, powerful, shaking, vibrating as if hit by a boulder."
• WoR A Burning World "He was like a boulder that had rolled to a stop here."

 

Evidence against it being Taln:

- Hoid calls him "my confused, unfortunate friend." in the Epilogue of tWoK. (perhaps he's confused as to who he is)

- This man is clearly so confused he doesn't know what time period he is. In fact, he thinks he most recently came from a time before Ishar founded the KR, when we know that the Heralds abandoned him well after that. In WoR, A Burning World, '"One of Ishar's Knights,' the madman whispered. His eyes narrowed. 'I remember... He founded them? Yes. Several Desolations ago. No longer just talk. It hasn't been talk for thousands of years. But...When...'" (this could be explained by the fact that he was broken by torture.)

- He doesn't have a scar (or at least isn't described as having one) and one of the constellations is called Taln's Scar (I admit this is a very weak point)

 

Other thoughts (definitely not objective):

The man who appears at the end of tWoK is the same man that Szeth sees at the Beggars Feast in the Prologue to tWoK. Not much evidence, most of it is grasping at straws.

- The man at the beggar's feast asks Szeth, "Have you seen me?", perhaps indicating that he is someone who is lost, or has lost himself. Wit in the Epilogue says to the man who appears, "Welcome, lost one."

- The man who appears at the end of tWoK is wearing "nothing more than a ragged, sacklike length of cloth wrapping his waist." and has a beard mixed with twigs. The man at the beggars feast has a "long gray and black beard" but no mention of his clothes. He is, however one of the poorest men in Alethkar since he's at the Beggar's Feast and his clothes can't be very fancy.

- He is smiling foolishly "though whether from wine or a weak mind, Szeth could not tell." Szeth assumes he's drunk. The man at the end of tWoK is definitely weak of mind. Szeth could be making a wrong assumption.

 

Let me know what you think.

 

 

[ParadoxicalZen]

I'm of the opinion it might be Ishar. Given he was the Patron of the Bondsmiths (and apparently of Luck too), breaking any sworn Oath can't be good for you.

[Kelek's Breath]

I used to be fully on the 'it's not Taln' bandwagon. But, after a couple of re-reads I'm not sure anymore.

Brandon might be playing with the fact that it's Taln, but he's not a Herald of The Almighty anymore, because something else may have Heralded the coming Desolation (remember the preceding monologue of Wit's about what men value most and timeliness).

 

The only other possibility (in my mind) is that Taln has already shown up years before, and something has happened to him (he's been abducted, he's training a secret army of Chasmfiends, etc) and another Herald, sensing the Desolation approaching and Roshar not preparing, takes it upon himself to dress up as Taln to warn humanity.

[Herdazian]

Guys what do you think about this this person is someone who had been approached by a spren to be one Taln's knights thus giving Taln some sort of hold over his mind which allowed him to get the memories and pain of Taln so this man is not the herald just a possible radiant whose mind has had a brush with Taln's

[Seloun]

The quotes can be reconciled if the person being referred to are actually two people from different books. In particular Taln might really be the person in the TWOK epilogue, while the person we see in WoR might be an imposter or a replacement.

 

That said, if the person in WoR is an imposter, he's a really good imposter. If he's not Taln, he's certainly not some random guy off the street given the dart interception scene. He might literally be a replacement - it's unclear if the Oathpact could be assumed by any other than the Heralds, but it seems likely (the Stone Shaman's punishment for the Truthless - giving them an Honorblade and dooming them to eternal torment afterwards - almost sounds like they're looking for Oathpact replacements).

 

Alternatively, as a crack theory maybe Taln does show up in the Epilogue - it's just not the man who shows up with the Shardblade. Maybe it's the guard that Hoid is talking with (what a twist!).

[Herdazian]

I think there is a WoB out there that says that those two people in TWOK and Wor are same

[Argent]

The quotes can be reconciled if the person being referred to are actually two people from different books. In particular Taln might really be the person in the TWOK epilogue, while the person we see in WoR might be an imposter or a replacement.

 

 

I think there is a WoB out there that says that those two people in TWOK and Wor are same

 

Indeed there is. I am a little busy to find it, but since it was I who posed the question to Brandon ("Is the man who arrived at the gates of Alethkar at the end of The Way of Kings the same man as the one who arrived in the Alethi warcamps in Words of Radiance?"), I remember Brandon's confirmation very well.

[ParadoxicalZen]

Is there a seperate description for when the man arrived and when Shallan visits the institution, or is it in the same scene?

Edited July 14, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Kelek's Breath]

Is there a seperate description for when the man arrived and when Shallan visits the institution, or is it in the same scene?

We get a partial description in Taln's Interlude, from the dialogue between Bordin, Dalinar and Elhokar. They speak about his accent (heavy, Northern Alethi), darkeyes, dark skin, long beard and broken nails. Nothing about his size though.

And why does he now have an accent, when he didn't have one when he appeared in Kholinar?

[ParadoxicalZen]

Hmm...broken nails...do we have a description of the man who is presumed to be Kalak in either of the Gavilar's death POV's?

Edited July 14, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[DreamEternal]

We get a partial description in Taln's Interlude, from the dialogue between Bordin, Dalinar and Elhokar. They speak about his accent (heavy, Northern Alethi), darkeyes, dark skin, long beard and broken nails. Nothing about his size though.

And why does he now have an accent, when he didn't have one when he appeared in Kholinar?

Shallan also said he didn't have an accent, so maybe it is just subtle enough that a foreign speaker won't notice. Edited July 14, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Kelek's Breath]

Hmm...broken nails...do we have a description of the man who is presumed to be Kalak in either of the Gavilar's death POV's?

1)Besides his height (shorter than the Azish/Nalan with crescent shaped birth-mark/scar) and he squeaks and is whiny-from Jasnah

2)Alethi-looking and nervous (keeps glancing over his shoulder)-Szeth

 

Shallan also said he didn't have an accent, so maybe it is just subtle enough that a foreign speaker won't notice.

Wit also describes it as 'perfect Alethi, with no hint of an accent'. So, what Brandon is really saying is that the accent is important somehow, or else he wouldn't mention it every time Taln speaks.

[DreamEternal]

Wit also describes it as 'perfect Alethi, with no hint of an accent'. So, what Brandon is really saying is that the accent is important somehow, or else he wouldn't mention it every time Taln speaks.

Without a hint of a foreign accent perhaps? After all, accents are subjetive, and speaking a language perfectly includes pronouncing it like a native speaker.

[Kelek's Breath]

Without a hint of a foreign accent perhaps? After all, accents are subjetive, and speaking a language perfectly includes pronouncing it like a native speaker.

The above is exactly as it is in the book: "speaking perfect Alethi, no hint of an accent".

I'm not too knowledgable but how does Hoid's

Cosmere Spoilers

perfect pitch figure in allowing him to detect the speech of others? Does it allow him to hear and determine even small differences?

[ParadoxicalZen]

I think it would allow for perfect recognition of sound deviations. So he knows what Alethi spoken by a native and foreigner sounds like, so even if it was someone who had learned Alethi well enough to speak it like a Native, there may have been still a slight trace of accent imperceptable to even the most keen eared folk

[natc]

So he speaks a modern language perfectly after so long has passed since the Last Desolation . . . interesting.

[Moogle]

Wit also describes it as 'perfect Alethi, with no hint of an accent'. So, what Brandon is really saying is that the accent is important somehow, or else he wouldn't mention it every time Taln speaks.

 

Standard disclaimer: theory with a minimum of direct evidence.

 

Speaking without an accent is a probable sign the person is using a "Babel fish" equivalent, like Hoid uses to translate to/from the language being spoken. It would make sense for the Heralds to have this. So, when "Taln" arrived at the gates of Kholinar it seems he was using it, but then he fell into madness and reverted to his native accent later. Or so my speculation goes...

 

We discussed this a little bit elsewhere: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/1894-question-and-answer/?p=216972and http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3172-why-heralds-dont-have-accents/

[Oudeis]

Shallan also said he didn't have an accent, so maybe it is just subtle enough that a foreign speaker won't notice.

 

From his own Interlude, he's speaking but all the people around him are unable to figure out what he says. But then Shallan can understand him.

 

So we have the end of Way of Kings, where he speaks to a bunch of city guards who all seem to understand him.

 

Then we have his Interlude, where several people do not understand him. One is Dalinar, who becomes a Radiant not long thereafter, and one is Elhokar, who has seen Cryptics. One is Bordin, one of Dalinar's men from Kholinar. They can't understand him, making out only a few words, saying he has a thick accent.

 

Then in Shallan's part, where suddenly he is understood perfectly by a Surgebinder.

 

So... what are all the differences? I'm not really hypothesizing this, but I'm just throwing it out there. When he's first understood, he's got a Blade which may or may not be Taln's Honorblade, and he can be understood. Then later he can't be understood and he definitely does not have that same Blade. Then still later, he is understood by someone who can Surgebind.

 

So. In every circumstance where someone, whether or not they have Stormlight, has the ability to Surgebind (possibly, if that Blade was an Honorblade), people can understand each other. When they can't (which is somewhat debatable for Dalinar at that point) they can't. So... the ability to Surgebind inherently grants you the "babel fish" power?

 

Amaram walks into the room while Shallan is there. Can he understand Taln? The passage leaves it unclear. It's from Shallan's perspective, and she recognizes it. All we get from Amaram's perspective is that Taln isn't saying anything specific or clear about the 'cache of Blades'. Does he understand the words at all? Would it be weird for him to not say, "but these words are just gibberish"? I'm not sure.

[Kelek's Breath]

...

We also have Amaram's POV at the end of WoR, where he speaks to Taln. And hears Taln whisper "the Desolation...". And replies to him without pause or remarking that Taln has an accent. The fact though that he responded and understood him, shows that there is a difference between Amaram's meeting and Dalinar's. And Amaram is not a surgebinder, although he does have a Shardblade. So Babel fish theory out the window?

The plot thickens...

[Oudeis]

He doesn't mention the accent, but he also doesn't mention a complete lack of accent. (EDIT: To clarify, I'm saying that sometimes we've been told the accent was thick, but other times it's been conspicuous in absence. So what could we assume from a lack of mention?) And even in his Interlude, Dalinar was able to understand several specific words. The fact that Amaram hears "the Desolation" isn't proof. If anything, I'd suspect that one specific word is one likely to have survived millenia intact. Later that same chapter, it's described as a "strange, unchanging mantra."

 

I feel it isn't clear one way or the other if Amaram can actually understand "the man who calls himself Taln" or not.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Oudeis

[ParadoxicalZen]

I fear I may have interpreted 'without an accent' incorrectly. Can anyone clarify/offer thoughts on if it is meant as having no accent whatsoever or whether it is perfect Alethi but with no Alethi accent in particular. If the former, that sounds a little weird, especially in Hoid's encounter

[Argent]

That's a good point, Hoid's opinion on whether someone has an accent or not is probably an unreliable one, given his babel fish thingamajik. 

[ParadoxicalZen]

Well i was thinking of his

perfect pitch

Not only that but it doesn't clarify what someone without an accent actually sounds like (meaning, is it telepathy/mind communication or some such). I'm siding more with the Honour Blades acting like Babel Fish/cypher; would explain a decent amount (would be interesting to know how many languages Szeth speaks and if he speaks with an accent, given how many places he went to, although granted he didn't really do much conversing)  

Edited July 15, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Argent]

Hoid's skill in recognizing tune and pitch don't make him immune to accents. It's not about what he hears, it's about what the speaker says.

[Oudeis]

As is mentioned in another book, most people think of accents as something the other guy has. So, does Shallan mean, he has the accent she's grown used to in the Warcamps, the accent of Kholinar? Or does he have her accent, from Jah Keved?