3 magic systems?

[blad3mast3r]

So,

 

Somewhere Brandon said that there are 3 magic systems on Roshar.

 

At first, i assumed these were....

 

1) Surgebinding/Radiant powers (Honor)

 

2) Voidbinding (Odium)

 

3) Fabrials (Honor)

 

But what about Cultivation;s magic system?

 

And how does the old magic/the Nightwatcher fit in to this? 

 

Discuss.

[Guest]

If memory serves, Nightwatcher is "of the old magic" or "part of the old magic", implying there used to be other forms of "Old Magic".

[Voidus]

Given that what would appear to be Cultivationspren are involved in some orders of Surgebinders I'd say that's more of a mix of the two, ditto with fabrials since spren can be Splinters of Honour or Cultivation or a bit of a mix IIRC.

[hoser]

Interesting.  It may be that there is magic apart from the "systems."

 

So we could have the three magic systems from above, and other distinct magic. 

 

I would be very interested in the exact quote about three magic systems.  It seems that with Adonalsium, Cultivation, Honor and Odium there could be many more.  The only quote I found in the Interview Database did not limit the number of magic systems to three (quote below). 

 

How did you correlate the magic systems to the Shards?  Surgebinding seems to me like it could be a combined system between Honor and Cultivation.  The female Heralds and their Surges seem more Cultivation related to me.  While the Oaths seem more related to Honor, the leveling up seems like a potential Cultivation thing.  The fabrial magic does not correlate to Honor necessarily for me either.  If anything, the modern fabrials that trap spren could be of Odium.  The ancient fabrials, with invested metals, would not be of Odium since they were made and used by the Radiants.  The magic animals such as the Larkin seem like a logical "magic system" for Cultivation. 

 

There is the alternate Surgebinding chart that seems to have Cultivation portrayed around the margins.  What "magic system" does that depict? 

 

Interview: Mar 21st, 2014

WOR Signing Table Q&A (Verbatim)

Rhandric

How many magic systems are there on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on your definition. Is Windrunning its own magic system, or is it a division of a larger magic system? Are the ten different Surges each their own magic system, or are they all the same one?

Rhandric

If you assume the surges are all one.

Brandon Sanderson

Well then you would have Surgebinding, and the Old Magic, those are two at least, and there are things that are not explained in those at all, and how do you count creating fabrials? Is that a science and not a magic? Is that its own magic system?

Rhandric

It's a science, because anyone can do it.

Brandon Sanderson

So Awakening is not a magic, then? Awakening's a science? Because anyone can Awaken if they get the breath.

Rhandric

That's something that stood out to me, because in all your other magic systems that we've seen so far there has to be some sort of snapping to occur, and that's unique, because- [...] Is there an active magic system on Threnody?

Brandon Sanderson

Threnody has a non Shard-based...it depends on what you call a magic system. Do spirits coming back from the dead count as magic? It's science to them, but, it's goofy science.

 

[ParadoxicalZen]

In relation to Hoser's post, it does depend on what you classify as seperate systems. A few Surges (maybe, not quite sure on this yet) and related Nahel Spren (Sylphrena and Honourspren for example) are solely Honour/Cultivation, whilst the rest are varying combinations of both. I'm under the impression that the Old Magic is of Cultivation, given the Nightwatcher's apparent give/take abilties, as well as the varied functions of Fabrials (perhaps Cultivating something from the bond between linked ones?) Voidbinding is most likely pure Odium investment but there may be something that is pure Adonalisum, as in before the arrival of the Shards, that relates to a magic system.

Edited July 8, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Guest]

Roshar's magic is just a mess to try and sort.

Surgebinding definitely seems to be a combination of Honor and Cultivation, because Regrowth definitely strikes me as Cultivation, but Syl is of Honor, so I think the KRs are mixed Investiture (some Orders are more mixed than others), but then we have the Honorblades, which are definitely of Honor directly, but they can grant Regrowth...

If we use Scadrial prior to HoA as an example, we have:

1 magic system of Ruin

1 magic system of Preservation

1 magic system of Ruin and Preservation interacting.

So I THINK that means we should have 7 on Roshar:

1 of Honor

1 of Cultivation

1 of Odium

1 of Honor and Cultivation

1 of Honor and Odium

1 of Cultivation and Odium

1 of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium

[Arook]

I asked once if a shard had to be based on a planet to create the kind of interaction we see on scadrial and I got a RAFO. If we stick with the standard of needing to be on the same planet then you would still only get 3 because odium is not on Roshar he is on blaze.

[Sol Invictus]

I think each Shardworld in the Greater Roshar each has a single Shard, but, being in the very same solar system, magical "overlap" is natural and unavoidable. Now that I'm reading TheWay of Kings (yay, me!), it appears Surgebinding depends, for the most part, on behavior. With the exception of the Honorblades, Surgebinders earn their magic by exemplifying a specific Radiant Order's virtues---a thing in my mind that speaks of honor, dedication and willpower.

Ashyn on the other hand, is in the Greater Roshar system and its magic system involves diseases temporarily giving you magic. Cultivation? "Cultivating" doesn't necessarily have a positive connotation you know.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Sol Invictus

[Arook]

I believe there is WoB that Austen does not have a shard but I agree with you on surge binding being something that strikes me as of honor not cultivation but surge binding could still be the mixture system

[Moogle]

Roshar seems to have non-codified magic systems as well. You might call the Old Magic a system, but it seems to just be a powerful spren. Is the Stormfather making the highstorm come sooner a magic system? If both are, then is "spren powers" a magic system? There's a spren for practically everything... and what about fabrials with captured spren? Honorblades seem like they should do more than regular Shardblades. When we find out what (if anything) they can do, does that count under Surgebinding, or what?

 

In summary, I agree with the above posts speaking of how messy things are.

 

As to the big three spoken of in the WoB (one involving fabrials), we went into this in detail in the bottom of this post. You may find the speculation interesting. By WoB, Surgebinding is H+C - the rest is uncertain.

[ParadoxicalZen]

I have a thought: In relation to what I said about Fabrials being of Cultivation, It occurred to me that it should be possible to capture void/Odiumspren inside the gem of a Soulcaster, ergo Fabrial Soulcasting could the be the H/C/O combination magic

[natc]

Do soulcasters even function properly with a spren trapped in them? They've always run on gem type and stormlight charge only.

[Kelek's Breath]

Well, if we go by the Ars Arcanum on the books, there are possibly 4 systems: the 10 levels of Surgebinding, 10 levels of Voidbinding, x levels of Voidbindings' cousin the Old Magic, and a 4th, more esoteric than Voidbinding, anonymous system.

 

Curious why The AA calls the Old Magic cousin to Voidbinding. Because of the way they function or due to its descent? Because that would make it of Odium, or it would make Voidbinding of Cultivation...

[DreamEternal]

Or it would mean the Nightwatcher is a Parshendi, or that the way her curses and blessings work are like the Parshendi spren bonds.

[Lumen]

Some thoughts (nothing new).   The planet shapes the magic system, to some respect.  Listeners were (most likely) around when Adonalsium was invested there.  The Listeners bond to spren to shape what they are (warrior, scholar, etc).  All the native life appears to bond to spren to develop as well.  Honor and Cultivation (shards of Adonalsium) come on the scene.  And we have magic that requires humans bonding with Honor/Cultivation spren.  Odium spren bond with Listeners to create Voidbringers.  Spren can be placed into gems, to create devices.  

 

I think the common element for Roshar, to this point, is that all magic requires a bond with Spren.  Whether Human/Listener, or Object (gem).  

 

Old style fabrials don't have captured spren (in the gem).  The Gem is simply the battery, holding the power (stormlight).  In that case, the spren may actually be in the metal instead?    Assuming everything works due to a spren bond.  The Stormfather, maybe he is connected with the planet itself?  Or atmosphere.  Nightwatcher...    Not sure about the superspren.

 

So, what if there is only 1 magic system (something {animal or mineral} bonds with a Spren).  And the only mixing is Odium, Honor, and Cultivation composition of the spren (and Odium is unlikely to allow mixing with the other two).   And the affect is just a result of the makeup of the bond.  Shard combination + animal/mineral type?  that is, one magic system + sub-magic categorizations (fabrials for spren/object pairs; Listeners/Greatshells for Native life development; Surgebinding for Human/Spren bonds; Voidbringers, etc).    Just not sure about the Super-Spren.  The Stormfather can bond with Humans for Surgebinding, and also pump investiture into storms.  Nightwatcher obviously does something too, though not sure how/why.  

[Moogle]

...

 

Your explanation is interesting, but it doesn't explain the Honorblades, which were the first use of Surgebinding. Spren figured out what Honor did and copied him, so it doesn't seem like they were part of the system from the start. Whatever mechanics rule the magic system, they need to handle Honorblades.

[Lumen]

Your explanation is interesting, but it doesn't explain the Honorblades, which were the first use of Surgebinding. Spren figured out what Honor did and copied him, so it doesn't seem like they were part of the system from the start. Whatever mechanics rule the magic system, they need to handle Honorblades.

A portion of Odium & Cultivation bonded to Metal?  And slightly less efficient than when a bond is made with animal?   Just flailing here.   Was just contemplating "how you would count" the magic systems.  is it 1, 3, 100, ...   

 

Mistborn

Mistborn was easier, in a way.  There are three, but all use metal.  One, metal is the conduit for the shard's power (Preservations?  Or generic power), and is used up during the process of accessing the power.  Another does not use up the metal, but can store a users innate power (rather than the shards) for use later (Ruin takes away, and Preservation gives it back?).  And a third that is used to store a piece of a person's spirit web, for use in another person (with some loss).   This is easier to call "3 magic systems".  With the metal catalyst being the common factor shaped by the world that is invested (maybe).  

 

[hoser]

Yeah.  What Moogle said, basically.  The theory is interesting, but it doesn't necessarily fit the data or predict anything, so I'm not sure how it is helpful. 

Other things to consider:

• Nightwatcher may be a spren, but do the supplicants really form a bond?
• There doesn't seem to be any evidence for a spren being in the Radiant (ancient) fabrials.  They may "be" spren, but where is the hypothetical bond then? Consider Shardplate, Soulcasters, Healing fabrials, Oathgates and likely more. 
• Cusicesh
• Larkin - do they have spren?
• The Highstorms are magical.  Where is the bond?
• Ryshadium? They could easily have a spren bond, I suppose, but I don't know that there is evidence for it. 
• The Unmade are magical, sentient and seem like spren, but are they really spren?  If they were once people that gave up their bodies, they would seem like spren, but not really be spren. Depending on how how you define spren, I suppose.  For me, Investiture + sentience doesn't make something a spren.  Spren have to be born of cognitive activity and are not necessarily sentient, IMO. 

There are a ton of magical things going on.  While spren and bonds seem to be a uniquely Rosharian thing, I don't see that the uses of Investiture on Roshar are limited to using bonds with spren.  On other worlds we have seen multiple magic systems and Shardic use of magic outside of the local systems.  The evidence seems scanty that Shards can only use their power in a single local system. 

Edited July 10, 2015 by hoser

[ParadoxicalZen]

The Highstorms are magical.  Where is the bond?

 I thought the Highstorm was a natural phenomenon that was changed slightly by Honour's arrival/Death, ergo, infusion of magic? (thought i remembered reading something to it months ago, but i might have misremembered it)

[hoser]

 I thought the Highstorm was a natural phenomenon that was changed slightly by Honour's arrival/Death, ergo, infusion of magic? (thought i remembered reading something to it months ago, but i might have misremembered it)

The delivery of investiture and the phenomenon at the eye of the storm definitely seem magical to me.  The storm itself could have been mundane at one time, but it seems to me that it could have been magically established by Adonalsium.  Whatever the history, I would say that is magical now.  So any overarching (or reductive) theory needs to take it into account.

[Sol Invictus]

Yeah.  What Moogle said, basically.  The theory is interesting, but it doesn't necessarily fit the data or predict anything, so I'm not sure how it is helpful. 

Other things to consider:

• Nightwatcher may be a spren, but do the supplicants really form a bond?
• There doesn't seem to be any evidence for a spren being in the Radiant (ancient) fabrials.  They may "be" spren, but where is the hypothetical bond then? Consider Shardplate, Soulcasters, Healing fabrials, Oathgates and likely more. 
• Cusicesh
• Larkin - do they have spren?
• The Highstorms are magical.  Where is the bond?
• Ryshadium? They could easily have a spren bond, I suppose, but I don't know that there is evidence for it. 
• The Unmade are magical, sentient and seem like spren, but are they really spren?  If they were once people that gave up their bodies, they would seem like spren, but not really be spren. Depending on how how you define spren, I suppose.  For me, Investiture + sentience doesn't make something a spren.  Spren have to be born of cognitive activity and are not necessarily sentient, IMO. 

There are a ton of magical things going on.  While spren and bonds seem to be a uniquely Rosharian thing, I don't see that the uses of Investiture on Roshar are limited to using bonds with spren.  On other worlds we have seen multiple magic systems and Shardic use of magic outside of the local systems.  The evidence seems scanty that Shards can only use their power in a single local system.

Spren strike me as being animistic spirits. Most animist religions in the real world posit everything has an associated spirit-being---spren, anyone? Furthermore, they seem so deeply encoded in Roshar's magic system that regular, normal people can either generate them (?) or attract them. They're so commonplace, in fact, that most people basically ignore them.

[Alfa]

I made some calculation, and ended up with the following result:
Each world can hold up to 2^S number of magic systems; where S is the number of shards currently present on this world. One system with none of the shard involved. I believe on Roshar this is something like the fabrials and/or the existance of spren (my assumption, but I may be very wrong). Scadrial does not seem to have one. Sel is somehow difficult, because you never know where which magic system is, or if they are all mixed up.
Then systems, which are related to a single shard (Allomancy/Hemalurgy/Awakening/probably Old Magic). The number of this systems is obviously S.

Then systems with two shards involved (Sel magic in its different variations (assumed)/Feruchemy/most likely Surgebinding). The number of it will be (S-1)*S/2.

Then following systems with three shards (probably something not yet discovered on Roshar). The number will be (S-2)(S-1)S/6.

With four Shards involved it will be S(S-1)(S-2)(S-3)/24 etc. etc.

Consequently bringing that thought to an end I came to the conclusion, that if all shards will somehow end up on one world (or to the time of Adonalsium) the given world will have the considerable number of 65.536 magic systems, not including  sub-systems and interactions.

I assume, that this is only the potential, but not the actual number we will end up - at least because BS is not crazy enough to describe that amount of magic systems and because some combinations won't work out well.