(Theory) The Tanavallah: a Surgebinders Guide to Harmonics

[Senor Feesh]

Good catch. From quote-mining, I'm 99% sure he was actually talking about the embossing on the actual cover (which is the Windrunner sword design), not the dustjacket. Doesn't make your finding here meaningless however, and I do wonder as to what it could mean.

[darkanimereal1]

@19 The Tanavallah is basically a graphical way of saying Cultivation and Honor merged into one Shard with two Intellects. Hence the symbol of one Eye with two pupils. Because they had defined their magic based on 10 aspects, they both naturally split into 10 fragments when Odium shattered them. I am assuming that both cognitive aspects were destroyed during the shattering, and the Heralds then picked up the Shards and formed the Oathpact.

 

I really like this theory for the Oathpact. This makes a lot of sense to me.

[Shivertongue]

Hmm...

 

Nope. 

 

Edit: Your theory is based upon what, to me, is a flawed premise - that the surges map onto a grid of External-Internal and Physical-Mental-Temporal-Enhancement. You are attempting to turn Surgebinding into Allomancy. Adding onto this, you bring in an elemental system, which has no basis on anything whatsoever, and is almost insulting to consider Brandon would base a magic system upon something so cliche.

 

But lets just ignore that last bit. The big issue is trying to attribute every concept of Allomancy - push/pull, 16 powers, internal/external that has me disagreeing. Brandon already did that. He doesn't like doing things he's already done.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Shivertongue
Because I guess I should give a reason...

[darkanimereal1]

Hmm...

 

Nope. 

 

Edit: Your theory is based upon what, to me, is a flawed premise - that the surges map onto a grid of External-Internal and Physical-Mental-Temporal-Enhancement. You are attempting to turn Surgebinding into Allomancy. Adding onto this, you bring in an elemental system, which has no basis on anything whatsoever, and is almost insulting to consider Brandon would base a magic system upon something so cliche.

 

But lets just ignore that last bit. The big issue is trying to attribute every concept of Allomancy - push/pull, 16 powers, internal/external that has me disagreeing. Brandon already did that. He doesn't like doing things he's already done.

I have to agree on the Elements thing. I knew something was bothering me about it and then I remembered this:

 

4. Do you plan a magic system which enables the character to manipulate the four elements with their will? I mean not so bounded, like Allomancy with Pushing or Pulling but shaping/summoning the elements according to the wishes of the person. I ask this, because in the whole fantasy genre I rarely find something like this (except: Arc Magica RPG), so I had to develop it myself at home . But from the authors I know you are the person who has the creativity to do this without doubt.

 

 

B: Maybe, but there are a few problems here. For one, "Four elements" magic has been done over and over in books and video games, so it feels hard to make fresh. And in what you describe, it sounds like the characters would be very powerful, which makes for a challenging story to write.

 

This kind of implies that he hasn't touched that subject yet because he hasn't thought of a way that's innovative enough for his standards to pull it off. That was from here: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2383-qa-with-brandon-sanderson/?p=42131

 

As far as being based ENTIRELY off of Allomancy, well... I'm not sure where I stand on this one. I think there are some similarities between the charts (which I pointed out here) but I agree that they wouldn't be completely the same. Brandon has said that there are things that unify his magic systems, but for now we can only guess what they are. Mostly it seems to have to do with the Realms at this point.

[Isomere]

Hey! putting "!!SPECULATION!! as part of this title seems kinda rude. Everyone has theories, many seem absurd, and none of them got the speculation hammer. 

 

This is the only internally consistent organization of all the Surges, Orders and Soulcasting elements that has yet been developed. If you don't like the underlying philosophy that's your choice, but please give it merit for the simple fact that everything works. 

 

As for the "elemental system, which has no basis on anything whatsoever, and is almost insulting" please consider the following:

 

When you use a certain Gem for Soulcasting, one element is easier to create than all the others.  For example, Emerald Soulcasters create food which is the physical substance associated with Growth. We know Jasnah used Smokestone, Ruby and Diamond and we usually see her Soulcasting things into Smoke, Fire or Crystal. Shallan created Blood, which is the element type for her Order. 

 

The six primary elements are Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Growth and Direction. The secondary elements are formed by combining these. For example, Smoke is a combination of Fire, Water and Air. 

Edited April 26, 2013 by Isomere

[Rubix]

Hey! putting "!!SPECULATION!! as part of this title seems kinda rude. Everyone has theories, many seem absurd, and none of them got the speculation hammer. 

 

This is the only internally consistent organization of all the Surges, Orders and Soulcasting elements that has yet been developed. If you don't like the underlying philosophy that's your choice, but please give it merit for the simple fact that everything works.

 

The reason I gave this post the !!SPECULATION!! hammer is because you've been referencing it elsewhere on the site as fact. Until we get word of Brandon that it is fact, you need to stop posting around the forums using this as a citation, or posting in such a way that you're refering to something in your theory as fact, such as unconfirmed surges.

[Voidus]

I only just noticed Rubix's new sig, that should be the welcome page
But yeah I doubt there's going to be too much in the way of elemental stuff, not the traditional elements as well, you pointed out that by combining the elements you can receive the Ten Essences but that's kind of the point of the whole element philosophy isn't it? That everythings made out of them? So it's a bit of circular reasoning to say that that means it's applicable to the cosmere.

[Morsk]

The six primary elements are Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Growth and Direction. The secondary elements are formed by combining these. For example, Smoke is a combination of Fire, Water and Air.

I don't understand this part, especially Blood and Water being separate. The table in the Ars Arcanum has Blood vs. Oil, and I figured water would be a type of Blood. (And the surge between them would be something involving the physics of fluids, maybe viscosity or surface tension. Or solubility, since oil and non-oil fluids tend not to mix.)

There are definitely some elemental themes, with "gas stuff" top-right, etc.

I can't make it all work though; the bottom-right doesn't really fit. Actually on second thought, I guess I understand what you're trying, but I think the lack of water means it can't be right. You want a classic element to correspond to one Essence, but I'm seeing more of solid/liquid/gas, and the association with classic elements being incidental.

edit: I think I fixed the image.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Morsk

[Isomere]

I don't understand this part, especially Blood and Water being separate. The table in the Ars Arcanum has Blood vs. Oil, and I figured water would be a type of Blood.

Traditional Vorin doctrine is well established as corrupt and must be interpreted carefully. A nice pretty blue glyph in the middle of the quadrant that represents liquids seems like an obvious choice for water. Blood is a combination of Water, Earth, Air and Life. This fits nicely with the combination of liquids, minerals, dissolved gasses and nutrients that fill the blood. 

[Phantom Monstrosity]

You... do realize that 'inertia' would be a total rehash of feruchemical weight, right?

[Voidus]

You... do realize that 'inertia' would be a total rehash of feruchemical weight, right?

But Brandon has said that some stuff will occur on multiple worlds so it's a possibility, although I think that Windrunner abilities would probably render it more or less obsolete.

[Isomere]

You... do realize that 'inertia' would be a total rehash of feruchemical weight, right?

Better stated, Feruchemical Weight and the Stonewards are both interpretations of the Inertia Aspect of Creation. So is a Pewter Allomancer and any Aon that increase your physical Strength on Sel. Notice that Inertia is Mass with Direction which makes this Surge fit perfectly between Tanat and Ishi. 

[Voidus]

For practical purposes though that's just a basic lashing, (Weight and direction) just that the actual mass (Rather than just your weight) changes, far too similar I think for them to both be surges.

[Isomere]

They are effectively paired powers, but one is push and one is pull. Actually, you make a good point. I need to switch pressure and gravity. I wanted gravity to point down, so I was sure it was the second Surge, but that won't work.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Isomere

[Morsk]

I can see an inertia power if it's more of doing a running charge into huge Voidbringer monsters and knocking them over, or resisting being knocked over by huge Voidbringers, and less flying around. Knights only get their 3 powers, not unlimited use of the surge, so there's still room for it to work out differently. Like say they can only increase inertia, or only increase their own.

[Voidus]

Inertia is a vector though, it needs direction, otherwise you're just increasing mass.

[Isomere]

I like the idea of inertia only affecting the Radiant. Gravity clearly can be forced on enemies and is an external power, but Inertia is internal only.

[Voidus]

I like the idea of inertia only affecting the Radiant. Gravity clearly can be forced on enemies and is an external power, but Inertia is internal only.

I doubt that the Surges follow Internal External patterns like Scadrial, so far Gravity, Pressure, Transformation, Lightweaving and (Probably on this one) Travel are all able to effect External things (Or both external and internal) So unless all 5 of the remaining Lashes are Internal then we have a problem Particularly given the effects of the Dustbringers in the prelude (Although they may not have been KR's)

But also since Gravity effects both internal and external things (Can lash yourself as well) how can you say it's external?

[Isomere]

Soulcasting is internal. You change your own spirit to be charming and irresistible, then you can persuade things to follow your requests. Correlate it to Internal Enhancement on Scadrial.

Gravity changes how the Planet affects something. Seth isn't changing how his own mass pulls on people.

[Voidus]

Soulcasting is internal. You change your own spirit to be charming and irresistible, then you can persuade things to follow your requests. Correlate it to Internal Enhancement on Scadrial.

Gravity changes how the Planet affects something. Seth isn't changing how his own mass pulls on people.

Those are both a bit of a stretch I'd say, Soulcasting changes something about other objects, there's no indication that it changes your spirit to be charming, the only real example we have was the goblet which didn't require any convincing at all and involved giving the investiture directly to the object to be Soulcasted.

As for Szeth when he Lashes himself he changes his own spiritual bond to the earth, which should be internal.

[Isomere]

Duralumin is used to store Spirtual connection. While filling a duraluminmind, other people's awareness and friendship of the Feruchemist will be reduced. Tapping the metalmind will allow the user to form trust relationships with others much faster.

Form a spiritual connection, ask it to change. Voila. Works just like a Soulstamp.

[Morsk]

Inertia is a vector though, it needs direction, otherwise you're just increasing mass.

Windrunners increase gravity without changing mass. I don't see any more problem in increasing inertia and/or momentum without changing mass.

One problem though is it's a bit redundant to Shardplate; being heavier and stronger gets you most of the same effect.

[Meg]

Traditional Vorin doctrine is well established as corrupt and must be interpreted carefully. A nice pretty blue glyph in the middle of the quadrant that represents liquids seems like an obvious choice for water. Blood is a combination of Water, Earth, Air and Life. This fits nicely with the combination of liquids, minerals, dissolved gasses and nutrients that fill the blood. 

 

 

(emphasizes mine)

 

I don't want to refuse totally this emphasized part but this and other things you stated make me ask: Do you have a special direct connection to Mr. Sanderson so that you really know more than a normal reader and user of this forums, the Coppermind and Theoryland (and other sources of information)? 

 

I apologize for being sort of offtopic,but I'm musing about this question since your very first postings. 

[Voidus]

Windrunners increase gravity without changing mass. I don't see any more problem in increasing inertia and/or momentum without changing mass.

One problem though is it's a bit redundant to Shardplate; being heavier and stronger gets you most of the same effect.

Because Windrunning directly influences the force of gravity, but Inertia is defined by having a direction Inertia without changing mass at all though would just be a Basic Lashing, so I don't really know what you're meaning here.

Duralumin is used to store Spirtual connection. While filling a duraluminmind, other people's awareness and friendship of the Feruchemist will be reduced. Tapping the metalmind will allow the user to form trust relationships with others much faster. 

Form a spiritual connection, ask it to change. Voila. Works just like a Soulstamp.

But there's no indication that that's even vaguely necessary, aside from which you are giving the investiture to the object, this is clearly shown, with Duralumin you're taking it in yourself, changing something about yourself, this is giving it to another object and changing something about that object, quite different. And the more we have to twist what we already know to suit this theory the less likely it is, we should be adjusting the theory to suit what we see in the books rather than inventing things that aren't in the books to support the theory.

[Isomere]

@meg. I've never met or communicated with Sanderson except through his books. This is the first time I have ever posted on any public forum anywhere that I can recall. I tried to include my process for thinking up the theory, and all of the ideas come from trying to really GRASP the way this stuff works. My "ahah" moment was when Shallan's Memory was added as the very last Surge in the Table. It threw my mind for a loop, but once I understood the symbolism and forms it all went Click in my mind and I pretty much understood the entire thing right then and there.

EDIT: In terms of "Traditional Vorin doctrine is well established as corrupt"  Mea Culpa. I've been discussing the book for a couple years with people that all assume Vorinism is corrupt, and I didn't realize this forum hasn't generally accepted this idea. I think the guy that wrote the Ars Arcana was unsure if the information they have is accurate, which is why he wrote, "the preceding list is an imperfect gathering of traditional Vorin symbolism". 

Edited April 26, 2013 by Isomere