Isomere Posted April 22, 2013 Report Share Posted April 22, 2013 (edited) This entire post is a HUGE speculation, so be warned.Edit 6/11: This chart was created to mimic the Kabbalah, and uses color, form, relationships and symbols to create meaning. The ideas below are all my interpretations of these relationships and symbols. The main structure of the diagram is a large eye with two pupils and 10 lines radiating out from the center. The smaller symbols form a ring around the iris. The beasts wings form the sclera of the eye. If you take away all the trimmings it becomes the symbol of Knight's Radiant. "Dalinar recognized the symbol, the particular pattern of the stylized double eye, eight spheres connected with two at the center. It had been the symbol of the Lost Radiants, back when they’d been called the Knights Radiant." (Ch 19). But what does that symbol mean? I believe these images are a graphical representation that Honor and Cultivation merged into one Shard with two Intellects. In effect, they are both peering out of the same eye, but with slightly different points of view.The Harmonic Table: KR symbol Double Eye Double Skull I think its quite important that the two Winged Greatshells are symmetric, and that there is a single larger head with mandibles created in the negative space between the two physical forms. The left beast represents Cultivation, the right beast represents Honor, and the central head depicts the spiritual union of the two Shards. There is also a Glyph located at the place where the two Dragonwasp heads connect. The heads and symbol viewed together resemble a crown with the central gem placed over the forehead. This Gem contains the glyph of Ishi. Now putting it all together: Ishi is associated in the Ars Arcanum with guidance and piety, and resides in the third eye focus of the spiritual union of Honor and Cultivation. The Skybreakers then are an Order of Radiants devoted to guiding us based on visions of the future. Ishi is the 10th Glyph, so 10 becomes a symbol of revelation.Each glyph and map shape is important, and you can make similar interpretations for each order of the Knights Radiant. We can even use this image to figure out the general location of the two Shardic pools, and predict their release into the physical realm through the Greatshells.This is also a way to organize Surges, and by association, Invested Spren. Think of the diagram as a coordinate axis grid. The x-axis is Investiture, the y-axis is Realm. The quadrants tell you the element type. Before we go any farther I suggest you look at how the color changes from top to bottom. Up is Physical, down is Cognitive. Left is Cultivation, right is Honor. Each Spren relates to a primary element or combination of primary elements. Going clockwise from the top right we get air, fire, water, earth and spirit in the middle. The large glyphs are Spren, and correlate to an Order of Kights Radiant and an Honorblade. The small glyphs are Surges and represent a power of creation.Starting from 1:00 and going clockwise the Surges are:External Physical-Gravity, PressureExternal Mental-Darkness, LightExternal Temporal-Transportation (Timespace Contraction)Internal Enhancement-Transformation (Spiritual Connection)Internal Mental-Memory, AwarenessInternal Physical-Perception, StrengthThis fits with Windspren ( Pressure and Gravity), Cryptics (Memory and Transformation) and JasnahSpren (Transportation and Transformation). If this is grouped correctly, StoneWards would be Strength/ Perception.Edit: Skybreakers would be Strength and Gravity, Lightweavers might be Light and Transportation (which could explain how Hoid gets around through time and space)Where are the other 6 Surges? They were never Invested by Honor/Cultivation but the spren exist and some have already been incorporated into fabrials. We see a radiant use Heliodor (gold) to mend wounds and we've seen a painspren fabrial work.What is an Honorspren? What is a Cultivationspren? That depends on how sensitive or specific you want to be. I'll just arbitrarily say you must have more than 50%, which would give you 4 Honorspren, 4 Cultivationspren and two hybrids. A purist would say there are no Honorspren as they all contain a bit of Cultivation.Surges and Symmetry: To understand Voidbinding you will need to grasp the theory behind Surgebinding.Each Surge represents a power of creation and is accessed through an associated Wave, or perhaps through the Concept of how that wave should function, or through a portion of the Ideal Form of the original Wavepattern that sparked the creation of all things. It seems the medium is variable, and you can reproduce a Surgepattern with light, sound, color or even quantum probability waves. Notice that everything in the chart has perfect symmetry. This is a reflection of how waveforms have spin, creating alternating positive and negative cycles and generating perfectly balanced patterns. Symmetry became a cultural obsession in an attempt to get closer to the Harmonic Divine.VoidbindingThe Table of Dissonance:Enter Odious Interference. His Intent is either to enslave or destroy everything else in the Cosmere. If He were to join the spiritual union He should add varying amounts of His investiture to each of the available spren, effectively creating a z-axis to the Harmonic Table. But He is a Jealous Younger Brother and didn't want to sully His Essence by combining with others. Instead, He found a way to enslave or destroy the Surges in the Harmonic Table.First, he created a way to trap the Investiture of the paired Shards into StormGems (Fabrials) and harnessed their powers. Next he used those powers to create perfect dissonance in the waveforms of the 10 Surges. Notice that the Table of Dissonance pairs up exactly with the Table of Harmonics. Surges are warped by reversing their charge and spin. This would in effect create an anti-surge. The very powers of creation are turned against themselves. Matter, Spirit and Mind are replaced by Fire and Shadow.EDIT: you can try this out for yourself by drawing a sine wave. Try and swing the part below the x-axis to create net zero at all points along the graph.EDIT: This is a supernova created when a star began to produce antimatter at its core. The organized matter turns into random energy and forms fire and empty space. This theory is far from complete, but it is as thorough as I can make it with the Splinters I'm working with. I'll be trying to finish the Harmonic Table based on Shardic Lens Theory, but could be hard to link everything up with only 10 of the 16 powers. My guess is we will see more Fabrials fill in the gaps for us. Since this theory depends on Honor and Cultivation uniting into one spiritual entity, it serves to reason that they are both partially splintered and partially whole. How that would affect the Cognitive aspect of the two shards is unclear, but best interpreted after reading chapter 57 and 75.Edit: I've done numerous organizational changes to clarify things, and I changed the Labels on the image a bit. For example, Heat changed to LightEdit 4/28: Based on discussions on page 3, renamed inertia to Strength, switched Gravity and Pressure locations. Updated image to reflect changes. Removed "Spin" from OP to avoid unnecessary confusion. Edited June 22, 2013 by Isomere 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pechvarry Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 This is pretty neat. One thing I can't latch onto is the "Earth/Fire/Air/Water" bit. I just don't think Big B would use the 4 Elements. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isomere Posted April 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 (edited) 6 elements actually, it's a Star of David with revelation at the top paired with spiritual growth at the bottom Edit: When you use a certain Gem for Soulcasting, one element is easier to create than all the others. For example, Emerald Soulcasters create food which is the physical substance associated with Growth. We know Jasnah used Smokestone, Ruby and Diamond and we usually see her Soulcasting things into Smoke, Fire or Crystal. Shallan created Blood, which is the element type for her Order. The six primary elements are Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Growth and Direction. The secondary elements are formed by combining these. For example, Smoke is a combination of Fire, Water and Air. Edited April 26, 2013 by Isomere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riceloft he/him Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 Kudos and upvote just based on the amount of time and research that must have gone into this. I can get behind a lot of this theory, though you lost me around the Voidbringing part. I always looked at that table as Cultivation's, not Odium's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isomere Posted April 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 Voidbringing looks like it involves creating antimatter, but it can affect all three realms. It completely negates the power of creation and all you are left with is energy and empty space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkanimereal1 Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 Voidbringing looks like it involves creating antimatter, but it can affect all three realms. It completely negates the power of creation and all you are left with is energy and empty space. As per your theory or based off something Brandon has said? I honestly think that the second chart could go either way (meaning Cultivation or Odium). That depends on a lot. First, I'm particularly worried since the one much-quoted line states "Once three of sixteen ruled. Now the broken one rules." The "three of sixteen" implies some kind of state of balance, even if it's just an equilibrium or even something like Ruin/Preservation. The phrase "broken one" implies that there is something wrong with Odium now that he's the only one ruling. I'm not quite sure what to make of that. I bring this up only because the content of the Oathpact could deeply influence your theory here (at least from the chart perspective). I think that the first chart could either be entirely Honor-based or Honor AND Cultivation (particularly if my theory about the masculine/feminine arts has any truth to it). In the first case, the second chart could be completely Cultivation. In the second, it would make sense if the second chart is Odium's. A third option, however, is that the Oathpact was between all three Shards and was actually to protect against the Desolations. For some reason, I keep getting the feeling that maybe Odium wasn't completely whacko-bent from the beginning. If the three of them ruled together, it could have been held by the Oathpact, which makes the origin of the second chart a lot harder to figure out. I think a large part of why I keep going back to this idea (aside from the "three of sixteen rule" quote) is that the masculine arts all seem to do with destroying while the feminine seem to center around creating. And if Honor truly is about protect against the desolations, it has to do with destroying even while it's dealing with "honor" and "binding". Maybe the "masculine" shards worked together to create shardblades which would defend but also destroy, while Cultivation worked to create (I still believe the Dawnshards are of Cultivation and bring things back together--perhaps a contract between Cultivation and Honor which binds together to create rather than destroy). Who knows. I could argue both sides back and forth for hours, but I'll cut myself off here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isomere Posted April 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 Three of sixteen ruled, but there is no reason to assume odium was part of that. We know there was a 4th shard on another planet in the same solar system. I am pretty sure that shard is responsible for the Old Magic and has already been fully Splintered. Now about the Table of Dissonance. I named this the Tanavallah because the two charts mimic the Kabbalah. Everything has meaning, from color to form to relationships. So lets break down what we are seeing in the second Table. There is a large red crystal in the center, which represents a Shard. The only place where the physical and cognitive realms exist is above and below this shard and they are getting hammered with lightning. Interpretation: Everything that isn't a part of Odium was destroyed and the swirling darkness is the Void. Also notice the symbols of fire and shadow including the outstretched arms of the woman, the swirling flames on top and the ribbons of darkness on bottom, the lightning bolts and shadow bolts between Voids and Orders, and the dramatic contrast between red shard and black void. Pretty much all we know about the Voidbringers is that they are associated with fire and shadow. The real clincher though is how they inverted half of the surge glyphs. This would act just like noise cancellation headphones. If you are interested, try drawing a sine wave and see if you can do a semi inversion to get net zero. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkanimereal1 Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) Three of sixteen ruled, but there is no reason to assume odium was part of that. We know there was a 4th shard on another planet in the same solar system. I am pretty sure that shard is responsible for the Old Magic and has already been fully Splintered. Actually, per WoB, Odium is confirmed to be part of that: CHAOS How many Shards have existed on Roshar? BRANDON SANDERSON Three From: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=691#13 And this: ZAS So the number of Shards that have been on Roshar is three, correct? BRANDON SANDERSON Correct. ZAS People have been thrown by you saying that Odium is not native to Roshar. BRANDON Odium is not native, that's the thing. Are any of them native? So if you dig the deeper question, are any of them native, ehhh, none of them are native to the planets you've seen so far. What I probably should've said to be more precise is that Honor and Cultivation were there long before Odium showed up. From here: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=836#49 There is a large red crystal in the center, which represents a Shard. The only place where the physical and cognitive realms exist is above and below this shard and they are getting hammered with lightning. Interpretation: Everything that isn't a part of Odium was destroyed and the swirling darkness is the Void. Also notice the symbols of fire and shadow including the outstretched arms of the woman, the swirling flames on top and the ribbons of darkness on bottom, the lightning bolts and shadow bolts between Voids and Orders, and the dramatic contrast between red shard and black void. Pretty much all we know about the Voidbringers is that they are associated with fire and shadow. The real clincher though is how they inverted half of the surge glyphs. This would act just like noise cancellation headphones. As for this, I don't quite buy it, and here's why: The storm clouds and the woman match up almost perfectly with the images from the map of Shadesmar. If you ask me, this has less to do with Odium and more to do with surges in the Cognitive Realm--perhaps even the related spren? It may be that one of these is the "Symbol" of the cryptic/truthspren. Beyond that, I see no reason why the gem should specifically related to a Shard. Gems play a huge role in Roshar, particularly for getting into Shadesmar. It seems much more likely that the gem and the surrounding lightening have to do with Stormlight and gems. I agree that it is very odd that the inner circle of symbols seem to be inverted or almost "messed up" versions of the first chart, which lends well to your theory. However I have a hard time attributing it solely to Odium without also stating that Odium, then, is in some way responsible for Shadesmar. The only other link I could think of would be to say that Odium somehow /moved/ the basis of his surges into the Cognitive Realm. That would be interesting. But since the most likely (and best WoB-backed theory) so far is that spren have a Cognitive nature, I don't see why the original surges/chart wouldn't already be linked to the Cognitive Realm. (If Kaladin is a KR from the first chart, and if Syl is part of that, then you already have an established connection with the Cognitive Realm). EDIT: Let me add, after looking back at this, that I'm not sitting here trying to pick apart your theory. It's more just that I'm trying to explore what parts of your theory are making me really think about what I've read and what I've seen. I promise I'm not trying to bash you here, and really I should be saying thank you, since you're giving me such great food for thought. I just don't want to come across as argumentative. Edited April 24, 2013 by darkanimereal1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isomere Posted April 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 I haven't heard any of this from any sources, it's all theory and could be wrong, but when so much starts working together I think it's unlikely. I started out with the idea that half the Spren are from cognitive and half from physical just based on the difference between Cryptics and Windspren. StoneWardens (Topaz) and Windspren are clearly Physical, so the bottom was Cognitive. I also was trying to prove that all 10 surges were purely Honor. I assumed from the outset that Shallan was using both honor and cultivation due to the quote about her Memory Cultivation in Chapter 7, so I was only trying to match her up with Soulcasting. She Soulcasted blood so Shash was easy for her. I also knew her two powers had to be far away from physical (so mental, temporal or enhancement) and one was Transformation. For the moment I was stumped so I filled in Stonewardens and skybreakers to complete the physical side of things. I also figured Jasnah would be mostly cognitive so I put her on Emerald and now I knew soulcasting and travel. At this point it was clear that left was internal and right was external powers. Next I worked on fire, which was intuitive based on color and form. It turned out that heat and cold were external mental, so I knew the internal mental powers would be opposite them and HOLY CRAP! Shallan's other power was Memory! Kaladin is clearly Honor and Shallan is clearly Cultivation and they are on opposite sides of the table! This is where I started thinking about the two Greatshells and noticed the symbolism of the spiritual union. The two shards went and merged on us! And now the table is complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkanimereal1 Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 Hmm, another thought. You posted this earlier: The large glyphs are Spren, and correlate to an Order of Kights Radiant and an Honorblade. The small glyphs are Surges and represent a power of creation. I find that interesting, since I had assumed the opposite when looking at the chart: the large glyphs would represent a Herald (and their Honorblade) and a surge, and the smaller glyphs would represent a KR Order, each which is connected to two Hearlds/Surges since each order of KR could utilize two kinds of surges. I guess, aside from the importance of which glyph represents what, it isn't that big a deal, since it works both ways. Also, as for this idea: Where are the other 6 Surges? They were never Invested by Honor/Cultivation but the spren exist and some have already been incorporated into fabrials. We see a radiant use Heliodor (gold) to mend wounds and we've seen a painspren fabrial work. I'm not quite sure I agree here, either. Yes, there are 16 Shards. Yes, there are 16 (fundamental) Allomatic Metals. However, there are (as of right now) 10 key Shardworlds. There are 10 Heralds (and thus 10 surges) based on the 10 key kingdoms. There are 10 Orders of KR. There are 10 Highprinces of Alethkar. I also remember reading that it was on the 100th desolation that the Heralds abandoned their blades. Only 1 in 10 survived the desolations (as described by Nohadon). At least on Roshar, and possibly in the Cosmere as well, 10 seems to be just as important a number. Perhaps you're right--maybe Honor and Cultivation left out six that they didn't like, which is why 10 is important to Roshar, but the fact that there are 10 key Shardworlds seems to imply that this number carries weight elsewhere in the Cosmere. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isomere Posted April 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) Do you need to be on the planet to have your power manifest there? Could the fourth shard not have joined with Honor and Cultivation from a nearby moon? Or even from a close orbiting planet? Odium has not been confirmed part of the three nor part of the Oathpact. In fact, it seems very opposed to his Intent to share power in any form. I have little evidence and deliberately didn't discuss this earlier, but Odium likely already turned Honor's native planet to dust. I initially thought as you, that only Honor was represented in the first chart. I changed my mind when I was forced to give Shallan Memory, which is clearly her connection to Cultivation. As for the red crystal, it correlates with the position that represents the shards spiritual aspect. In the first diagram it is a beautiful representation that the spirit of God resides at the core of all things. I have already talked about Ishi, and was hoping someone would bring up Palah. This gem represents past-sight, growth, spirit and nourishment as it resides in the mouth focus of the spiritual union of Honor and Cultivation. By learning of the past we gain the spiritual nourishment we need to grow and attain wisdom. This, combined with the guidance of Ishi, is the origen of the double-eye symbols so prevalent in the book, and show us the way to enlightenment. I was thrilled when I realized that Jasnah is Palah. For odium, there is nothing else, just a red crystal with emptiness around him. EDIT: The storm clouds and the woman match up almost perfectly with the images from the map of Shadesmar. If you ask me, this has less to do with Odium and more to do with surges in the Cognitive Realm--perhaps even the related spren? It may be that one of these is the "Symbol" of the cryptic/truthspren.I don't know why this correlation to Shadesmar exist, but I'm pretty sure it's not coincidence. My completely unfounded guess is the Heralds picked up the 10 Shards of Honor/cultivation and used this Power together to create a prison for Odium in the cognitive realm. He leaks out over time just like ruin did and that causes Desolations. Edited April 24, 2013 by Windrunner Please don't double post, you can simply edit your old post. Thanks! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwynn Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 I'm really kind of curious how you read this... ZAS So the number of Shards that have been on Roshar is three, correct? BRANDON SANDERSON Correct What I probably should've said to be more precise is that Honor and Cultivation were there long before Odium showed up. And then translated it into this... Isomere Could the fourth shard not have joined with Honor and Cultivation from a nearby moon? Odium has not been confirmed part of the three nor part of the Oathpact. But for the rest, I absolutely love the harmonics notion and especially how you noted the changing of color going down the page. Very important on both diagrams it would seem. As for which KR order is which, I agree on some, just way too early to tell. I tend to think of Nalan'elin as the Skybreakers order simply because, well the guy has lightning behind his head! Which besides being cool, has me tending to think of that group as Skybreakers since we learned of them. Cool stuff though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isomere Posted April 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) @12 I'm trying to say Brandon may have been splitting hairs when he said only three shards have been on Roshar. Another shard could have remained on a nearby planet or moon, but its influence filled a large enough space that interactions happened with Roshar as well. This would allow the 4th shard to participate in the Triumvirate and/or the Oathpact without ever technically coming to Roshar. Just based on Shardic Intent I would strongly oppose Odium being part of the Triumvirate, but he definitely would enter into an Oathpact if it gave him opportunity betray, enslave or destroy. Recent Q&A confirmation that Large = Order and Small = Surge. Ishi also confirmed to be Skybreakers here. BRANDONYes they are, in fact they are- every order is a grouping of one of these [points to the large symbols on the Radiant tables] and two of these [points at the smaller symbols], these are the Surges. So these are the ten, sort of forces. And so Windrunning is pressure and gravitation, which are those two. But the Skybreakers are right there [points to gold symbol in the upper middle], with a different combination and each of these different groupings would make one order of the Knights Radiant. And that is the symbol of the Windrunners, right there on the cover. [Points at the swordglyph under the dust jacket]. So, fun little easter-egg type things there. Edited April 24, 2013 by Isomere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwynn Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 Oooooo, I had totally missed the Skybreaker order confimation. Very cool. But the large=order and small=surge is nothing recent. Now I see what you're talking about with a 4th Shard, and I'd say it's possible, but I would lump the splitting hairs assessment on your side of things after a confirmation like that. Still nice to actually understand what you meant now. Bah, this is going to kill me all day now. Got to go search out any reference to how close...nevermind, found it. He does say Silence Divine planet is pretty close, so definitely not out of the realm of possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkanimereal1 Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 @12 I'm trying to say Brandon may have been splitting hairs when he said only three shards have been on Roshar. Another shard could have remained on a nearby planet or moon, but its influence filled a large enough space that interactions happened with Roshar as well. This would allow the 4th shard to participate in the Triumvirate and/or the Oathpact without ever technically coming to Roshar. Just based on Shardic Intent I would strongly oppose Odium being part of the Triumvirate, but he definitely would enter into an Oathpact if it gave him opportunity betray, enslave or destroy. Recent Q&A confirmation that Large = Order and Small = Surge. Ishi also confirmed to be Skybreakers here. BRANDON Yes they are, in fact they are- every order is a grouping of one of these [points to the large symbols on the Radiant tables] and two of these [points at the smaller symbols], these are the Surges. So these are the ten, sort of forces. And so Windrunning is pressure and gravitation, which are those two. But the Skybreakers are right there [points to gold symbol in the upper middle], with a different combination and each of these different groupings would make one order of the Knights Radiant. And that is the symbol of the Windrunners, right there on the cover. [Points at the swordglyph under the dust jacket]. So, fun little easter-egg type things there. Aah, I had missed that as well. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isomere Posted April 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) Did anyone catch my reference to Vun Makak? I think the Purelakers have the only True religion, and that their Sacred Grotto is where the combined Shardpool of Honor and Cultivation was originally formed. Urithiru was built "near" the Shardpool so it was built in the Purelake and not accessible by foot. The Purelake corresponds to Ishi on the Table of Harmonics and is a logical place for their cognitive essence to form. This pool is currently altered because the cognitive aspects of the two shards are dead. (See the Top Room, chapters 57 and 75). After Odium killed and fractured the paired Gods into 10 shards, the Heralds picked up the mantle. The Origin was formed as the Shardpool of Jezriel. The shardpool of Taln is in Shinovar and his power managed to protect them from the ravages of the storm. There are 8 other Shardpools which likely correspond in location to the 10 orders of Knights Radiant. The shardpool of Ishi remains in the sacred Grotto Edited April 24, 2013 by Isomere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkanimereal1 Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 This pool is currently altered because the cognitive aspects of the two shards are dead. (See the Top Room, chapters 57 and 75). After Odium killed and fractured the paired Gods into 10 shards, the Heralds picked up the mantle. The Origin was formed as the Shardpool of Jezriel. The shardpool of Taln is in Shinovar and his power managed to protect them from the ravages of the storm. There are 8 other Shardpools which likely correspond in location to the 10 orders of Knights Radiant. The shardpool of Ishi remains in the sacred Grotto I could see this theory, although I have to ask how you think the pool would be altered. I'm not saying it wouldn't be--I could buy that as well, but we know that the pool in Elantris is still there and still possesses some abilities despite the splintering of Devotion. I wonder if there are differences between Devotion's pool and Preservation's that we can pick out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor Feesh Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 I'm curious as to why there should be 10 shardpools on Roshar. Every other pool has been tied to one shard. Heralds ≠ shards. Or did I miss something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwynn Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 I'm curious as to why there should be 10 shardpools on Roshar. Every other pool has been tied to one shard. Heralds ≠ shards. Or did I miss something? I'll echo this same question. I don't think we've ever seen a Splinter have it's own pool. I'm also wondering about... This pool is currently altered because the cognitive aspects of the two shards are dead. ...where you get the idea Cultivation's (I'm assuming you mean her) cognitive aspect is gone. Honorspren were around before Tanavast died, so they don't have to be Splintered and gone for their spren to be a viable bond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isomere Posted April 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) @17 I have no clue how the shard pool would be altered and I'm up for being taught by those in the know.@18 My theory is based on varying degrees of investiture. The difference between an Investiture, Splinter, Shard and "The True Harmony" is all just a matter of Threshold. Lets use a gravitational analogy. You create a black hole only after accumulating sufficient mass to overcome the linear constraints of Spacetime. This allows you to keep light captive. The difference between a large star and a small black hole could be just a few pounds of mass, but the way they behave is profoundly different. Similarly, the difference between a powerful Investiture and a Splinter could be a single Breath, but the way they behave is profoundly different. Investiture: allows access to the powers of the Source Splinters: can form independent sentience Shards: can form a Shardpool The True Harmony: can create the Cosmere All of these things are only possible if the Spiritual power of the Investiture is combined with a physical focus and an Intellect (which humans happen to posses). Apparently 1/80th of Adonalsium is still able to make a Shardpool. EDIT: the only reason I think they form a shardpool is because the Highstorms seem to be coming from the Windrunner Symbol, and I'm speculating that is where Jezerezah's pool would form. @19 The Tanavallah is basically a graphical way of saying Cultivation and Honor merged into one Shard with two Intellects. Hence the symbol of one Eye with two pupils. Because they had defined their magic based on 10 aspects, they both naturally split into 10 fragments when Odium shattered them. I am assuming that both cognitive aspects were destroyed during the shattering, and the Heralds then picked up the Shards and formed the Oathpact. EDIT: Windy has shown that Cultivation's Holder is still alive which does throw kinks in this idea. The only way it still works out is if Cultivation was forced to abandoned her Shard and continued to live as a Sliver. Edited May 26, 2013 by Isomere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morsk he/him Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 How would this theory handle Shallan being #3 Brave/Obedient, like this? It's much less popular than Shallan as #6 Creative/Honest, but I still like to evaluate new evidence and theories in light of it. Gravity Kaladin / WindPressureJasnah / SmokeTransformationShallan / FireLight I also like thinking of fire as being "light and transformation", and of transformation as being between smoke and fire. It's alchemical not scientific, but wind as "gravity and pressure" isn't really scientific either, just a loose association. Anyway is this completely incompatible, and would lack the nice symmetries you're looking for? Or is it just different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isomere Posted April 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 Good idea Morsk, I originally though fire was transformation and heat as well. I then tried to use Purification and Heat. We should both see if we can play around and make that work. It would put Shallan on the Honor side of the board, so we would likely need to either re-vamp the x axis or use the other shadowtable as Cultivation and put Memory on there for Shallan to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morsk he/him Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 I've been ignoring Shallan's memories, figuring her mother cut a deal with the Nightwatcher for "a special child" and ended up with a curse so horrible she killed herself as soon as the pregnancy was over. Or that they're Shallan's equivalent of Kaladin's not needing to breathe. I forgot how much it changes things, not to have to make memory a surge. I don't think of internal surges at all, but you're using them as half the table, to have memory in there. So it's pretty different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isomere Posted April 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 I tried working with Surge order of pressure, gravity, transformation, heat and I especially like Jasnah as Nan, because she is almost always represented with Smokestone. Shallan's personality is well represented with Fire, I think is has merit, but I haven't been able to get an x-y symmetry to work with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khmauv he/him Posted April 25, 2013 Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 I just noticed something while reading through this...Brandon mentioned symbol on the cover that matched one in these charts. The following pictures seem to match. I always assumed that the main figure on the cover was one of the Knights Radiant or Dalinar. If that is true what connection would they have to Odium? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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