Musings About Voidbinding

[Otto Didact]

Anybody have ideas about Voidbinding? From my (admittedly cursory) look-see through the Q&A and Theoryland responses, I didn't find any Word of Brandon relating to it. Just judging by the principles of symmetry on Roshar, I get the feeling that binding a "Void" would be kind of like the symmetrical opposite of binding a Surge. So you could have a sort of nega-Windrunner that would bind whatever Voids correspond to the opposite of Gravity and Atmospheric Pressure (Magnetic Force and Vacuum maybe?) Also, that would kind of make sense to explain why Voidbinding is associated with seeing the future. Assuming that Memory is a Surge (which is just speculation), the Void associated could be Foresight or something. Anyway, just some idle thoughts--I don't feel like it has enough basis to be called a theory necessarily. What are your opinions/any WoB that could shed light on the matter?

[Windrunner]

I still don't buy the idea of Memory being a Surge, or even Shallan's memories being tied to Surgebinding. There's never any mention of spheres being drained when she takes a memory, so I'm inclined to believe it comes from elsewhere.

[hoser]

Anybody have ideas about Voidbinding? ...

A big question is what the relationship between voidbringer and voidbinding is. 

 

Are there only 10 voidbringers (sort of anti-heralds) who are the only voidbinders?  

 

Are there voidbinders who are not voidbringers, sort of anti-Radiants?

 

I would start with all the "hints" in the text plus WOB like the one about foretelling.

 

One of the bridgemen suggests that the Voidbringers can do possession. 

 

Apparently they can summon Midnight Essence, one of the ten deaths, which may be asssociated with Re-Shephir the midnight mother. 

 

They can animate stone to create thunderclasts, perhaps another of the ten deaths.

 

Yelig-nar (Blightwind) is supposedly accompanied by screams.  Szeth is hearing screams also.  He irrationally hates.  Is he becoming a voidbringer? A voidbinder? Odium's champion?

 

Some of them could hold stormlight perfectly, according to Szeth.

 

Jasnah has a picture of a Chasmfiend as a voidbringer.  Do the Voidbinders or Voidbringers possess greatshells?

 

Axies is said to have a voidbringer shadow that goes toward the light. Does that mean a different spiritual relationship with light? Is it similar to v-binders or v-bringers?

 

If we collect all this stuff, maybe somebody will make a brilliant theory.

[Otto Didact]

I am also somewhat skeptical of Memory for the same reason, although it could be that her taking Memories isn't active Surgebinding, but just foreshadowing.

Edit: The problem regarding Voidbinding and the Voidbringers is that a lot of the information that we think we know is swathed in religious mummery and mysticism. I really only trust The Ars' supposition that there are ten levels of Voidbinding.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Paydirt

[Windrunner]

Personally, I see Odium's equivalent of the Heralds as being the Unmade.

[hoser]

Personally, I see Odium's equivalent of the Heralds as being the Unmade.

So:

Heralds compare to Unmade including Yelig-nar and Re-Shephir

Surgebinders (Radiants) compare to voidbringers who do voidbinding

 

Like that?

 

Do unmade also do voidbinding?

[Meg]

Are there only 10 voidbringers (sort of anti-heralds) who are the only voidbinders?  

 

Reading "anti-heralds" I remembered the following quote: 

 

 

gunslingers ()

The number 10 seems to be a recurring theme in this world. Are the Ten Fools the antithesis of the ten orders of the Knights Radiant?

Have you ever killed off a character and later regretted it?

When writing a battle scene in which thousands die do those deaths affect you in any way?

Brandon Sanderson

First Question: Yes, ten is a number of mythological import in the world. The Ten Fools are, essentially, the opposites of the Ten Heralds—who each represented an ideal. (Those ideals were later adopted by the orders of Knights Radiant, so yes, there is a connection—but there's a step between them.)

source

 

(Emphasizes mine)

 

I don't really know what is meant with "anti-herald" so I don't know whether this quote is contradicting your idea or not. 

 

Going slightly off topic, but because they are mentioned here: I wonder, too, what these "Unmade" are. They are -- or were -- foes, that is fact.

 

 

All of my wordsmen were slaughtered when Yelignar broke into the chancery. You’re the only man of letters I know of who’s still alive.

 

That's what Nohadon tells Dalinar in his vision (Chapter 60 TWoK). I dare say that "Yelignar" == "Yelig-nar". So the ancient people knew about this kind of people whatever they were. 

 

Musing: May Yelignar and his kind have been renegade surgebinders at that time? 

[Otto Didact]

I get the feeling that the Ten Fools are merely constructs of Vorin theology, meant to represent the Ten Human Failings, just as the Heralds represented the Ten Virtues. If the Unmade really are the Voidish opposites of the Heralds, I doubt the Vorin teachers would want to include that scary information as part of their theology. It's like Kabsal tells Shallan--the people don't like hearing too much even about the Voidbringers, so they concentrate on nicer, easier stuff instead.

[Isomere]

a "Void" would be kind of like the symmetrical opposite of binding a Surge.

 

I agree Paydirt. I think Voidbinding on Roshar involves trapping an Honorspren, then hijacking the Investiture of the Almighty to create anti-surges. My ramblings about the original theory are here, and build on the symbols inside the book covers. Basically, the semi-inversion in the image below would create an identical Surge, but reverse the Charge and Spin. This is similar to noise cancellation headphones, and I correlate it to creating antimatter. If you switch the spin and charge of a particle you get antimatter. If you switch the spin and charge of a Surge you get an anti-surge. I theorize that if Odium gets his hands on a re-creation of Adonalsium's Investiture he could use Voidbinding to unravel the very fabric of Creation which is my interpretation of Dalinar's last vision. 

 

[Meg]

I get the feeling that the Ten Fools are merely constructs of Vorin theology, meant to represent the Ten Human Failings, just as the Heralds represented the Ten Virtues. If the Unmade really are the Voidish opposites of the Heralds, I doubt the Vorin teachers would want to include that scary information as part of their theology. It's like Kabsal tells Shallan--the people don't like hearing too much even about the Voidbringers, so they concentrate on nicer, easier stuff instead.

.

That would mean that there are two sorts of "Anti-Heralds": The religious ones known as the Ten Fools and the Unmade as the Voidbringers or Voidbinders. 

Now I'm confused.

[Senor Feesh]

.

That would mean that there are two sorts of "Anti-Heralds": The religious ones known as the Ten Fools and the Unmade as the Voidbringers or Voidbinders.

Now I'm confused.

Perhaps the Unmade are the true anti-heralds, and the Ten Fools are in some way a metaphorical interpretation (I'm thinking along the line of fables). After all, Brandon said there was a step between them

[Galavantes]

I still don't buy the idea of Memory being a Surge, or even Shallan's memories being tied to Surgebinding. There's never any mention of spheres being drained when she takes a memory, so I'm inclined to believe it comes from elsewhere.

Always seemed a bit like cultivation to me. She is creating a collection after all. 

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Shallan says outright that she's cultivating the memories.

[Meg]

Perhaps the Unmade are the true anti-heralds, and the Ten Fools are in some way a metaphorical interpretation (I'm thinking along the line of fables). After all, Brandon said there was a step between them

 

 

I apologize for the late reply and me being stubborn.

 

(Kind of a quote because that editor makes me crazy, I beg for your pardon for this, too.)

 

gunslingers ()

... Are the Ten Fools the antithesis of the ten orders of the Knights Radiant? ... 

 

Brandon Sanderson

...The Ten Fools are, essentially, the opposites of the Ten Heralds—who each represented an ideal. (Those ideals were later adopted by the orders of Knights Radiant, so yes, there is a connection—but there's a step between them.)

 

 

First: BS says that the Ten Fools are the opposites of the Ten Heralds. 

Second: Each of the Heralds represented an Ideal. 

Third: Those Ideals were adopted by the KR. 

Fourth: There is a connection: Heralds -> Ideals -> Knights Radiant

 

The "step between them" is the adoption of the Ideals by the Knights Radiant. 

[happyman]

I apologize for the late reply and me being stubborn.

 

(Kind of a quote because that editor makes me crazy, I beg for your pardon for this, too.)

 

gunslingers ()

... Are the Ten Fools the antithesis of the ten orders of the Knights Radiant? ... 

 

Brandon Sanderson

...The Ten Fools are, essentially, the opposites of the Ten Heralds—who each represented an ideal. (Those ideals were later adopted by the orders of Knights Radiant, so yes, there is a connection—but there's a step between them.)

 

 

First: BS says that the Ten Fools are the opposites of the Ten Heralds. 

Second: Each of the Heralds represented an Ideal. 

Third: Those Ideals were adopted by the KR. 

Fourth: There is a connection: Heralds -> Ideals -> Knights Radiant

 

The "step between them" is the adoption of the Ideals by the Knights Radiant. 

 

The real questions are, are they based off real historical figures or were they invented at some point by Vorinism?  If they are real people, was their opposition to the heralds shoe-horned in by later historians, or were they actual opposites in a meta-physical, or at least truly contemporary sense?

[Meg]

Perhaps the Unmade are the true anti-heralds, and the Ten Fools are in some way a metaphorical interpretation (I'm thinking along the line of fables). After all, Brandon said there was a step between them

 

 

First: BS says that the Ten Fools are the opposites of the Ten Heralds. 

Second: Each of the Heralds represented an Ideal. 

Third: Those Ideals were adopted by the KR. 

Fourth: There is a connection: Heralds -> Ideals -> Knights Radiant

 

The "step between them" is the adoption of the Ideals by the Knights Radiant. 

(bold emphasizes mine)

 

My posting was not to rebut the idea that maybe the Unmade were kind of "the ten anti-heralds" (though I don't see any evidence) but to show that "step between" the Heralds and the Knights Radiant as for Gunslinger had asked whether the Ten Fools were the anti-thesis of the Knights Radiant. 

 

That might be slightly off-topic here. Sorry.

 

 

But, as I told before, I'm not convinced that Yelig-nar is an Unmade. He seems to be kind of a human when mentioned by Nohadon. But that one death quote makes him feel more *mystical*. 

 

“Yelignar, called Blightwind, was one that could speak like a man, though often his voice was accompanied by the wails of those he consumed.”

—The Unmade were obviously fabrications of folklore. Curiously, most were not considered individuals, but instead personifications of kinds of destruction. This quote is from Traxil, line 33, considered a primary source, though I doubt its authenticity. (Epigraph Ch. 30 TWoK) 

 

 

Now I lost track , despite that I'll post this. 

[blackmagic3]

I believe that  Daigornarthis is also one of the unmade, although I couldn't find the similar quote.

 

"“Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Daigonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it!”

—Tanatesach 1173, 28 seconds pre-death. A darkeyed female street juggler. Note similarity to sample 1172-89."

 

In regards to Voidbinding I noticed some similarities in the book: (emphasis is all mine)

 

"Szeth hesitated, then knelt down and took the sphere. It was odd, unlike any he’d seen before. Though it was completely dark, it seemed to glow somehow. With a light that was black."

-Szeth looking at Gavilar's sphere

 

"He effortlessly sheared a monster in half, flinging pieces into the night that trailed black smoke."

-The radiant dispatching the midnight essence in Dalinar's vision, this could be the black anti-stormlight.

 

"Tiny, near-invisible spren were floating out of the beast’s body, vanishing into the air. They looked like the tongues of smoke that might come off a candle after being snuffed. Nobody knew what kind of spren they were; you only saw them around the freshly killed bodies of greatshells."

-Dalinar's observations after the hunt.

 

I thought that these instances bore a resemblance to the anti-stormlight in Gavilar's sphere, I included the great shell quote even though it bore the least similarity with the other two because Kalak saw purple blood in the previous desolation.

 

"Blood mixed. Red. Orange. Violet" -Kalak in the prelude

 

Also the picture of the voidbringer Shallan drew for Dalinar was a great shell.

 

Going a bit deeper, Gavilar didn't want the Parshendi to have the anti-stormlight sphere because he was planning to bring back the Parshendi gods using the anti-stormlight and the Parshendi gods were the unmade/ten fools.

[Shardbearer]

"He effortlessly sheared a monster in half, flinging pieces into the night that trailed black smoke."

-The radiant dispatching the midnight essence in Dalinar's vision, this could be the black anti-stormlight.

 

Did anyone else notice that the shardblade actually cut the creatures instead of burning out their eyes?

[Meg]

Did anyone else notice that the shardblade actually cut the creatures instead of burning out their eyes?

 

 

I think that's because the Midnight Essences were nothing really living or animated nor were of flesh.

 

As always, the Shardblade killed oddly; though it cut easily through stone, steel, or anything inanimate, the metal fuzzed when it touched living skin. It traveled through the guard’s neck without leaving a mark, but once it did, the man’s eyes smoked and burned. They blackened, shriveling up in his head, and he slumped forward, dead. A Shardblade did not cut living flesh; it severed the soul itself.

TWoK, Prologue 

[Isomere]

Mistborn stuff

My take on Midnight Essence: Take the Black smoke in the Well of Ascension/ the Mists of Preservation.

Find the correlate Vapor that Odium creates as part of his physical body. Wrap it up in a skin to keep it concentrated and give it form. Then let it's hatred loose on the unsuspecting. I don't really think Midnight Essence has a soul to rend. It's just condensed Shardic energy from Odium. 

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Well, we know it's related to the black smoke that nightblood emits when it destroy stuff.

[Galavantes]

I can't wait for Nightblood to go up against a shardblade.