Madcap Theory about Shardplate

[Bort he/him]

In Way of Kings, there is an interlude chapter, which follows the exciting lives of a pair of Ardents whose names escape me presently. One is obsessed with food, and the other, with mathematics and/or spren.

 

In this chapter it is noted that when a flamespren is measured, and its height recorded, it stops fluctuating in size and shape. It is also noted that this freezes it's height, but not other attributes, allowing the flame to still move slightly, although just not up or down.

 

What if this is how Shardplate is formed?

 

No-one knew what Shardblades were until recently, when Syl explained them to Kaladin. Until then, they had just been really cool magical swords. Now we know Shardblades are dead spren, and the gem and heartbeats is used to 'wake it up' to be used. What if the Shardblade is the same, only locked into a specific form in ages past?

 

Shardplate was just another really cool magical item, until it was discovered that Shardblades are spren. What do we really know about Plate though?

 

• It stops Shardblades.
• It repairs itself, and parts that have been completely broken can be regrown using the rest of the Plate, or a fragment of the shattered piece.
• It uses Stormlight. This may just be for repairs, or it may also use Stormlight to power the enhancements Plate bestows on its wearer. Either way, you go into combat with infused gemstones, you come out with dead ones, or at least, weaker.
• Syl does not seem to find Plate offensive (she does with Shardblades because she sees them as dead spren - remember she comments about how Dalinar was a better man now he had given up his Blade, but she made no mention of his Pate). If Plate is made of shapelocked spren, chances are they wouldn't be dead, only dormant, so not as offensive to Syl.

 

So, there you have my theory. Shardplate is created from living, but shape locked Spren.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Bort

[Shardlet he/him]

Not directly related to your theory, but the interlude you are referencing is in Way of Kings rather than WoR.  Just a formality.

[Curious Anamaximder he/him]

Nice theory! Up vote!

[Guest]

A few problems with this:

Shardblades, despite being dead, are effectively indestructible, while Shardplate cracks and explodes.

The "frozen" Flamespren still have no Physical Aspect. That would still have to come from a Bond of some type, or a completely unknown process.

Spren doesn't seem to care about Stormlight in any way.

Shardplate can be disassembled into at least 10 pieces (2 gloves, 2 arms, front and back plate, 2 legs, 2 boots). This would require at least 10 Spren working together. (Note: I suspect it's more likely 15-19 pieces. 10 is just the minimum I can remember being identified)

These issues make me think that Shardplate might be Spren-Formed or Spren-Constructed, but not a Spren itself.

Additionally, Shardplate absolutely requires Stormlight to function. Remember what Adolin did in his 2nd (3rd?) Duel when he made his opponents Plate run out of Stormlight? It locked right up, leaving the guy inside helpless.

[DreamEternal]

Uh, spren seem to care about stormlight actualy. Fabrials need stormlight and greatshells have gemhearts.

[Guest]

Fabrials require power to function. Your car needs gas to go, but the wheels don't care about gasoline.

As for Greatshells, we don't fully know the relationship between the Greatshells, the Spren, and the Gemheart. Though doubtful, it's possible the Gemheart is a waste-product of some other bioprocess, like a pearl in an oyster.

[natc]

Fabrials also need trapped spren to function though, and I'm not recalling whether the stormlight demand for their functions originate from the spren or the circuitry.

[DreamEternal]

Circuitry? You mean the metal frames? Because while they may or may not play an important role in determining what the fabrial does, the stormlight is contained in the gemstone together with the spren, so I would guess the stormlight is the fuel, the spren the engine and if the metal plays a part it us the wheels.

[Bort he/him]

Thanks for the correction, Shardlet. I've edited my post.

 

A few problems with this:
Shardblades, despite being dead, are effectively indestructible, while Shardplate cracks and explodes.

The "frozen" Flamespren still have no Physical Aspect. That would still have to come from a Bond of some type, or a completely unknown process.

Spren doesn't seem to care about Stormlight in any way.

Shardplate can be disassembled into at least 10 pieces (2 gloves, 2 arms, front and back plate, 2 legs, 2 boots). This would require at least 10 Spren working together. (Note: I suspect it's more likely 15-19 pieces. 10 is just the minimum I can remember being identified)


These issues make me think that Shardplate might be Spren-Formed or Spren-Constructed, but not a Spren itself.

Additionally, Shardplate absolutely requires Stormlight to function. Remember what Adolin did in his 2nd (3rd?) Duel when he made his opponents Plate run out of Stormlight? It locked right up, leaving the guy inside helpless.

 

Ok, I'll attempt to address your points here...

 

1. Shardblades are indestructible, shardplate shatters. This is true, however shardblades are summoned from the cognitive realm (I assume it is the cognitive realm anyways, maybe spiritual - maybe both depending on whether or not the spren is alive or 'dead'). Shardplate is permanently in the physical realm. You do not summon your plate, you instead have armourers who come and fit it onto you.

 

That is a fairly major difference between plate and blades, and is probably most of the reason why shardblades cut through anything - they are not really in the physical plane, so can sever the spiritual connection holding the physical items together. Plate can stop shardblades because (if my theory is correct), they are also made from spren, therefore exist in both the physical realm, and the cognitive/spiritual.

 

2. Flamespren has no physical aspect. Incorrect. It has a physical aspect in that it appears like a small flame, dancing in the fire. It isn't much, but it is a physical aspect, otherwise simply measuring it should not have caused it to freeze.

 

3. Spren love stormlight. Syl goes out to play highstorms. Soulcasting requires stormlight, both for contacting Shadesmar, and as a bribe to the spren of the item you are casting. Even the Listeners. When they are trying to change their form, the capture a spren in a gemstone, and take it out into highstorms. I think it is probably a fairly safe assumption that the energy gained from stormlight is what is used to fuel the transformation.

 

4. I didn't say it was all one spren. The more intelligent spren, Cryptics, Honourspren, and so on, are the ones that created the bond. Perhaps the plate is made up of lesser, 'cousin' spren, like Kaladin's armour would be made up of windspren, Syl's 'cousins'. We've already seen how spren like these flock together, so I don't think it is much of a stretch for this to happen.

 

5. Shardplate requires stormlight to function. True, but what is it used for? Enhanced strength and agility, repairing damage, and, I assume, to allow proper, physical movement (and I'm not just talking bowels here, Adolin lovers). Probably also to allow the plate to mold itself to the user. What do the Radiants (Kaladin, anyways) use stormlight for? Enhanced strength and agility, repairing damage, and allowing for free movement (plus surgebinding, but that is an ability the plate does not seem to have).

[Jondesu he/him]

4. I didn't say it was all one spren. The more intelligent spren, Cryptics, Honourspren, and so on, are the ones that created the bond. Perhaps the plate is made up of lesser, 'cousin' spren, like Kaladin's armour would be made up of windspren, Syl's 'cousins'. We've already seen how spren like these flock together, so I don't think it is much of a stretch for this to happen.

I have been picturing in my mind for a long time now (possibly prompted by a post here or on Reddit) an incredibly cool scene where Kaladin speaks another Ideal and windspren whirl around him for a short time before "hardening" into his new living Shardplate.  I think your theory isn't too far off, but remember that the helm of the Knight that Dalinar sees in one of his flashbacks seems to disappear and then reappear, indicating it's similarly alive and flexible as the spren Shardblades, though probably in a different way since the Shardplate doesn't get the same reaction from Syl.  If it's made from non-sentient spren, that could completely explain that difference.

 

jW

[The Honor Spren she/her]

I am about to dive into some fairly baseless speculation, but humor me.

What if shardplate works differently when you are bonded to a live spren?

I mean, remember how in Dalinar's vision he saw a radiant use regrowth on him WHILE SHE WAS WEARING SHARDPLATE. She could also just dismiss the helmet instead of taking it off (or somthing like that). One other thing was those strange glowing glyphs.

Just thought I should throw those things out there.

[DreamEternal]

Uh, the radiant who used regrowth on Dalibar was using a fabrial, plus when kaladin turns a shardplate helmet into a gaunlet it steals his stormlight.

Edited June 17, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[natc]

On the other hand, the windrunner in that vision lashes himself while fully armed.

Though Szeth says it's the gems that interfere with his lashings, and judging from Kaladin with the helmet that windrunner was probably using his own body for power storage.

[DreamEternal]

I find it more likely that the abandoning of their oaths broke the Plate somehow, even if not as much as the blades, since the helmet was taking all of Kaladin's stormlight and he couldn't simply choose to stop giving it, something that heavely limited his tatical options.

Edited June 18, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Shadowspren he/him]

I am about to dive into some fairly baseless speculation, but humor me.

What if shardplate works differently when you are bonded to a live spren?

I mean, remember how in Dalinar's vision he saw a radiant use regrowth on him WHILE SHE WAS WEARING SHARDPLATE. She could also just dismiss the helmet instead of taking it off (or somthing like that). One other thing was those strange glowing glyphs.

Just thought I should throw those things out there.

No I had similar thoughts, 

Szeth says in the prologue that he can't wear plate and use lashings because they interfere with one another, whereas the windrunner in WoK can use both. 

 

 

I have been picturing in my mind for a long time now (possibly prompted by a post here or on Reddit) an incredibly cool scene where Kaladin speaks another Ideal and windspren whirl around him for a short time before "hardening" into his new living Shardplate.  I think your theory isn't too far off, but remember that the helm of the Knight that Dalinar sees in one of his flashbacks seems to disappear and then reappear, indicating it's similarly alive and flexible as the spren Shardblades, though probably in a different way since the Shardplate doesn't get the same reaction from Syl.  If it's made from non-sentient spren, that could completely explain that difference.

 

Yeah that's what struck me, she didn't remove her helm, it seemed more of a dismissal than anything.

One thing I wanted to add was that besides the Glyphs on the plate, he doesn't just describe the female knight at 'wearing plate' (I'll find the exact quote later) but he says something like, 'a female in elegant shardplate... don't know if that is the adjective used but it is something like that.

 

Here's my theory, when the Parshendi take on warform they grow armor from their skin, and taking on a different form is based off of different spren right? So when a knight bonds with a spren, their continued use of stormlight naturally forms a protection for the knight. This explains why it doesn't leave any gaps, because it forms around the person, plus even after the recreance the plate slowly molds to the shape of the wearer. Then once a Parshendi changes forms they lose their armor, when the knight breaks their bond, they lose the control of being able to summon the plate and it becomes purely physical 

 

Furthermore, because the plate is a result of the bond with the spren, it doesn't interfere with the other powers of the bond, but enhances them. It wouldn't work with Sazed initially because he got the Windrunner powers from the honorblade, not a spren.

 

Plate is not indestructible, but it would have formed to help the knights fight against the voidbringers, not against each other... When Adolin is fighting at the end of WoR he gets struck by lightning, or lightning strikes nearby and it is ineffective because the plate was made (or formed) for that very purpose of fighting the voidbringers, for winning the desolation.

 

And lastly, plate being a result of the bond would explain why it could be summoned by the knight, and would also explain why once the bond is broken, it remains in the physical and can no longer be summoned.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Shadowspren

[BreathBecomeYours]

Yeah that's what struck me, she didn't remove her helm, it seemed more of a dismissal than anything.

 

That's something I completely overlooked. I was aware it seems like her helm would appear and disappear in a heart beat, but I never related that to the same kind of function a shardblade has.

 

My mad theory is that shardplate and shardblade are of Honor. This at least is my theory my mind can piece together from what I can recall with looking back at reference.

 

Syl says that honor blades are different to shardblades, that spren essentially copied the ability a shardblade gives, so in theory the plates of old (lets call the Honorplates) are also different to modern day Shardplate.

 

Shardblades are dead spren (or alive spren i guess before the Recreance) and Syl admits that she's at least "part of [a God]". That God I assume is referring to Honor.

So perhaps when Honor was splintered and the host/shardholder killed, he left behind his body and mind. His mind in the form of spren - the most sentient perhaps being the Stormfather- spren thus being able to bind.

Which leads me to think that shardplate may be his body, so perhaps with no presence of a deity to power the artefacts gem stones must be used instead.

 

My idea for this of course sprouts from Mistborn Trilogy, mainly because I'm sure I recall that Atium slowly regrows and replenishes overtime (please correct me if I'm wrong) Kind of like how plate regrows itself, albeit faster and with assistance.

 

But chances are since I'm a newbie I probably sound like a crackpot with no evidence to back myself up with

[Ardjet]

I actually had the same thought a while back, when thinking about Shardships for the scifi books(and drooling at the thought). That if Atium was Ati's body, why couldn't shardplate, or more specifically the material shardplate is made of, be Honors body?

[Bort he/him]

 

That's something I completely overlooked. I was aware it seems like her helm would appear and disappear in a heart beat, but I never related that to the same kind of function a shardblade has.

 

My mad theory is that shardplate and shardblade are of Honor. This at least is my theory my mind can piece together from what I can recall with looking back at reference.

 

Syl says that honor blades are different to shardblades, that spren essentially copied the ability a shardblade gives, so in theory the plates of old (lets call the Honorplates) are also different to modern day Shardplate.

 

Shardblades are dead spren (or alive spren i guess before the Recreance) and Syl admits that she's at least "part of [a God]". That God I assume is referring to Honor.

So perhaps when Honor was splintered and the host/shardholder killed, he left behind his body and mind. His mind in the form of spren - the most sentient perhaps being the Stormfather- spren thus being able to bind.

Which leads me to think that shardplate may be his body, so perhaps with no presence of a deity to power the artefacts gem stones must be used instead.

 

My idea for this of course sprouts from Mistborn Trilogy, mainly because I'm sure I recall that Atium slowly regrows and replenishes overtime (please correct me if I'm wrong) Kind of like how plate regrows itself, albeit faster and with assistance.

 

But chances are since I'm a newbie I probably sound like a crackpot with no evidence to back myself up with

 

This is an interesting thought. That idea had never occurred to me.

[Cayden]

One other thing to keep in mind, in WoR when Kaladin begins to use his surgebinding fully he attracts a swarm of windspren, we know that Shallan frequently attracts creationspren.

 

Maybe speaking further Oaths will allow you to bond the non-sapient spren? If this is the case then it probably wouldnt bother Syl as much because they were not alive in the same way.

 

I would be surprised if there is a link between a Knights spren and the plate itself though, at least not in the same way that the blades are. Because if that was the case then you would likely be able to bond plate...

 

And finally... The variety of Spren which can bond with a human do not naturally exist within the physical realm, whereas normal spren do. Which would explain why plate cannot disappear into shadesmar like a blade can.

[natc]

All spren are native to the cognitive realm, though. They only manifest when attracted by something.

[Bort he/him]

One other thing to keep in mind, in WoR when Kaladin begins to use his surgebinding fully he attracts a swarm of windspren, we know that Shallan frequently attracts creationspren.

 

Maybe speaking further Oaths will allow you to bond the non-sapient spren? If this is the case then it probably wouldnt bother Syl as much because they were not alive in the same way.

 

I would be surprised if there is a link between a Knights spren and the plate itself though, at least not in the same way that the blades are. Because if that was the case then you would likely be able to bond plate...

 

And finally... The variety of Spren which can bond with a human do not naturally exist within the physical realm, whereas normal spren do. Which would explain why plate cannot disappear into shadesmar like a blade can.

 

Pattern is a Cryptic, or as Jasnah said, a Liespren. Creationspren could easily be considered a cousin to Liespren.

 

Syl has admitted that she would basically be a windspren if it wasn't for the bond, and as was pointed out, they do seem to attract them quite a bit.

 

Kaladin has swore three oaths, and finally got Syl as a weapon. Shallan only had the one oath to swear (which leaves her open to some interesting moral dilemmas), but had to also face that final truth before she could grow further. Perhaps we'll see it with Kaladin's fourth oath, or as Shallan continues to develop.

[natc]

Shallan has been able to summon Pattern's shardblade form for years now though. We don't know how many truths it took.

Edited June 22, 2015 by natc

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Wasn't the shardplate of old adorned with the glowing glyphs of the respective radiant orders, and as a possible result of the Recreance, the plate 'broke' and lost the glyphs and functions it would have had had the nahel not been broken? Along with freezing the Nahel spren into shardblade form, the shardplate could have become mostly consigned to the physical realm, essentially just being a much greater than average armour. It still regenerates and provides the physical bonuses but unlike shardblades, it's form remaind trapped and has limited cognitive function, like when Dalinar commands the gauntlets to disconnect from his armour, whereas they wouldn't be able to dismiss any part of the armour entirely like the radiant did with the helm in Dalinar's vision.

 

After reading that question and corresponding WoB from Reddit/Signing/Interview (can't remember where) about the flock of spren that surrounds the radiants as they're using their abilities to some degree and if it is at all related to Shardplate to which Brandon gave a really gleefully evasive answer  (i think, as they become more aligned with the respective spren type i.e kaladin flying around, enjoying the freedom like windspren and Shallan becoming immersed in her creation. should they possibly speak more oaths/truths, the spren come to see themselves as a whole instead of one, which could form the armour) ramblerambleramble

 

On the topic of why surgebinding didn't work with shardplate now, I believe it has to do with it being broken. For the example of when the radiant lashed himself whilst in plate, it could be that given that the plate may have been a by-product of his bond, it may not have been affected so.

Edited June 22, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Prince of Ravens he/him]

I think shardplates are pieces of souls of Radiants. When they gave up their armor they became drabs. From the Dalanar visions you could see that Radiants were stone faced and emotionless when they left their shards in front of that fort. But your hypothesis have it's merit.

[Guest]

Shallan has been able to summon Pattern's shardblade form for years now though. We don't know how many truths it took.

 

Brandon said 3 oaths are required to achieve a Blade for most orders. By the end of WoK, Shallan has spoken her second truth... My thoughts are she had then made it back to where she were, as a child. It is thus quite possible little Shallan was a level 3 Radiant, had access to a Blade, but lost it when she regressed until she remembered enough to re-speak her truths.

 

Though Brandon also said not all orders get their Blade at the same time.... but 3rd oath seem to be the threshold for most. Lift, for example, is thought to have spoken her 2nd oath in WoR and yet has to have a Blade.

 

 

Wasn't the shardplate of old adorned with the glowing glyphs of the respective radiant orders, and as a possible result of the Recreance, the plate 'broke' and lost the glyphs and functions it would have had had the nahel not been broken? Along with freezing the Nahel spren into shardblade form, the shardplate could have become mostly consigned to the physical realm, essentially just being a much greater than average armour. It still regenerates and provides the physical bonuses but unlike shardblades, it's form remaind trapped and has limited cognitive function, like when Dalinar commands the gauntlets to disconnect from his armour, whereas they wouldn't be able to dismiss any part of the armour entirely like the radiant did with the helm in Dalinar's vision.

 

Brandon also said there was a bond between the Plate and its owner, but a much lesser one than with a Blade. I have wonder what it meant as the Plate does not seem to react to his owner in the same way as a Blade.... As for Blades, Dalinar said they sometimes altered their physical appearances when owned for many years. In other words, the Blades are alive enough to manage to better fit their wielder, but it takes them years and years and years of recognition to do so.

 

I had wondered if it would be possible to re-use the current Plate as per before the Recreance... If they could be "re-awaken" like the Blades... though I suspect you would need a Nahel bond to do so, but still I wonder.