Pulsers and Sliders

[SwiftSteel]

So if a Pulser is burning cadmium and is in their bubble, do they age more slowly compared to the people outside of the bubble?

 

Basically the same question with Sliders, except "age more quickly"

[Voidus]

No Word of Brandon on this but almost undeniably yes. Miles didn't notice any physiological changes in the bubble so it seems like all metabolic activity, respiration, etc. is all affected by the time bubble.

[SwiftSteel]

How much faster does time progress in a bendalloy bubble?

[Mr Atmos]

How much faster does time progress in a bendalloy bubble?

 

I think it has to do with how much they "flare" the metal/burn it so they could burn it more quickly for a greater time distortion effect (so a great amount of time passes in the bubble for next to no time outside the bubble). So I imagine the answer is it varies depending on the bubble. (You may want to double check this with someone.)

 

Although it's probably worth mentioning that for a slider to have any noticeable effect they'd really need to be going at it at high rates for an implausible amount of time considering the sheer cost of the metal.

[Voidus]

How much faster does time progress in a bendalloy bubble?

About 8x in Alloy, a 2 minute bubble represents 15 seconds on the outside, obviously flaring, relative strength, etc. will all change it though.

[SwiftSteel]

So a person in a bendalloy bubble would age 8 times faster than someone outside of one?

 

An a person in a cadmium bubble would age 8 times slower...

 

So what would that do to a person storing age?  Or any other attribute?  Would they also be store 8 times as quickly in a bendalloy bubble?

 

EDIT:

 

Another thing is: I'm kind of expecting two more temporal metals.  Gold, atium, malatium, and electrum seemed to work well together as a quadrant because they all predicted something.  Bendalloy and cadmium actually affect time itself though...

 

So am I just helplessly hoping, or does it make sense that there would be two more metals?

Edited April 13, 2013 by Windrunner
Please don't double post

[Satsuoni]

I highly doubt there would be more base metals. There are, of course, other atium/lerasium alloys to consider.

 

As for your original question: AFAIK (as in, take this with a grain of salt), everything time-related speeds up in bendalloy bubble (this by the way excludes speed of light, since it is not really time-related. Also, because bubbles don't look like mirrors). So you'd store faster, age faster, move around faster related to the things outside. Likewise, with cadmium bubble, everything would be slower.

 

I once made calculations that I don't care to repeat now, but essentially, it doesn't affect Bendalloy users lifespan overmuch, since the amount of bendalloy necessary to shorten their lifespans for one year you'd need to burn it for 52 days or so (one hour daily for 3 years), and it burns quickly and is expensive. Storage effects do apply.

[Voidus]

So a person in a bendalloy bubble would age 8 times faster than someone outside of one?

 

An a person in a cadmium bubble would age 8 times slower...

 

So what would that do to a person storing age?  Or any other attribute?  Would they also be store 8 times as quickly in a bendalloy bubble?

 

EDIT:

 

Another thing is: I'm kind of expecting two more temporal metals.  Gold, atium, malatium, and electrum seemed to work well together as a quadrant because they all predicted something.  Bendalloy and cadmium actually affect time itself though...

 

So am I just helplessly hoping, or does it make sense that there would be two more metals?

Yes storing and tapping should both be affected by a time bubble, if you'll recall Wax tapped weight while inside it and it seems to have been tapped faster (Normally for him, since he was in the same reference frame.) Age wouldn't be affected more than any other attribute since you store actual age, not the rate at which you age.

Malatium was a particular alloy of a god metal with gold which is why it produced a similar effect. Keep in mind that the metals in a quadrant need not be terribly related, Iron and Steel differ from Tin and Pewter far more than Bendalloy does from gold or electrum.

[Vortaan]

Also remember that there is always a metal pair that lets you effect the outside world and a metal effect that is more internal. Electum/gold change something inside you, bendalloy/cadmium change something outside you. They fit the internal/external metals pretty well.

[king of nowhere]

I have been under the impression that to make the scene with the explosion and the one with the moving bullet realistic, you need much more than an 8x acceleration. Someting like 100x is what is needed. Possiblly more, for the explosion. I dopubt they had more than 1 second from the start of it to the moment they were swept up, and they talked for at least one minute before managing to escape the room.

[Galavantes]

I have been under the impression that to make the scene with the explosion and the one with the moving bullet realistic, you need much more than an 8x acceleration. Someting like 100x is what is needed. Possiblly more, for the explosion. I dopubt they had more than 1 second from the start of it to the moment they were swept up, and they talked for at least one minute before managing to escape the room.

 

I tend to agree. Although I think Wayne was most certainly flaring here. Likely at a typical burn it's like 8x-10x, I think he was burning the **** out of his reserves to outrun that explosion.

[Voidus]

It should actually give us a fairly good indication of how much flaring affects a metals burn, I think 100x might be a bit much but definitely over 20x I'd say, which could mean that he might be able to triple his strength by flaring which is quite a bit more than I'd think flaring could manage.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I'm not sure flaring is the same for all metals, though.

[Galavantes]

I'm not sure flaring is the same for all metals, though.

 

That's what I was thinking as well. There's nothing that says the yield from flaring any particular metal is the same as any other. I think we'd have to look at each metal on a case by case basis.

[Voidus]

Well if we look at Duralumin we can see that it increases Pewter and Steel to roughly the same degree so that Vin isn't crushed when she uses it, so it should at least hold that inside of a quadrant that the ratio between rate of burning and power is roughly equivalent.

[Kurkistan]

As for your original question: AFAIK (as in, take this with a grain of salt), everything time-related speeds up in bendalloy bubble (this by the way excludes speed of light, since it is not really time-related. Also, because bubbles don't look like mirrors). So you'd store faster, age faster, move around faster related to the things outside. Likewise, with cadmium bubble, everything would be slower.

 

That's after factoring in frame of reference's effect on to what degree objects' motions are accelerated, right?

 

EDIT: Just had a weird secondary thought on that, actually.

 

Scenario: A ship is flying through space with a time bubble expanded around it and anchored to it, so the ship is motionless relative to the bubble. If that ship goes through a "wall" of particles traveling towards it, then its bubble should result in parts of the wall "bulging" either towards the origin of the ship (if it's a bendalloy bubble) or away from it (if it's a cadmium bubble).

 

Is that an acceptable result? I think it is, but something about it gave me a moment of disquiet when I first thought of it.

 

EDIT 2: Just to be clear, the possible problem is that, from the wall's perspective, this time bubble just shot through them and suddenly some otherwise stationary particles started moving around for awhile. Also, the "wall" oughtn't be a singular entity, Cognitively,

 

Before:

____|

____|

>___|

____|

____|

After:

____|

___|

__|____>

___|

____|

Edited April 16, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Actually, I'm wondering... given that cognitive space is quite different from physical space, and time bubbles are anchored to cognitive aspects...

 

Are bubbles always the same size in physical space?  Or are they a fixed *cognitive* size?  If the cognitive size were fixed, we know that interstellar space is very small, cognitively, so you might be able to cover everything with a single bubble.

[Kurkistan]

I don't think so, Phantom, at least not exactly. It's my read that bubbles are "present" in physical space, to some extent, instead of just being a spherical manifestation of cognitive effects. My gut just says no.
 
I'll try to make my gut a bit more sensible, though. It doesn't really seem that time bubbles are very present in the Cognitive Realm. They inherit many of their features from Cognitive aspects (frame of reference, who/what is in or out), sure, but I think their actual active impact is on the Spiritual (then flowing to the other two Realms), to go in line with how the quadrants are broken down and my own pet theory of how magic works, Realmatically.
 
Incidentally, this recalled to me a fact I saw in the AMA. I had been planning on waiting until all was said and done before just posting everything, but this is an appropriate context:

Source

Q: Hello Mr. Sanderson, I have a question about bendalloy bubbles - what happens to a human that is partially in and partially out of the bubble when it's placed? Does the difference in the flow of time kill him?

And, if yes, is the boundary of active bendalloy bubble effectively impassable for living organisms? I get that bullets shot out of the bubble randomly change directions, but what happens to, let's say, a person trying to jump out of the bubble (or, given enough time, a person trying to get inside)?

A: Any living thing touching the bubble it is affected by the bubble.

 

So people don't get a choice about whether or not to be inside the bubble, unlike trains. This also pretty much confirms some variation on my distension theory, since we know that people on the train wouldn't be affected; which means that they don't even come into contact with the bubble because the train messes with its surface in some way. So the train either distorts the bubble around it or, at the very least, punches a whole clean through. It isn't simply "in" the bubble but not affected by it.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Bubbles are anchored to the cognitive aspect of the planet, IIRC?

[Kurkistan]

They're anchored to the planet via a spiritual bond similar to the one that gravity manifests as. Assuming that the bubble doesn't automatically latch onto the strongest gravitational-spiritual bond the misting has, what frame of reference the bubble latches onto probably has to do with what the misting (cognitively) "sees" as unmoving.
 
Source

Q.Zas678- I’ve got a question kind of based off of the train fight. If you have a time bubble, and you were to make it while you are on the train, would the time bubble move with the train, or would it stay at the same spot relative to the planet?
A. Time bubbles don’t move, so it would pull you out of it, then it would vanish.
Q. (Mi’chelle)- If you were to pop up a time bubble and someone were to be stuck halfway in and halfway out, would they go splooch?
A. No, they would be in the time bubble. The time bubbles will move with the planet but not with the train.
Q. Yeah, I always thought it was relative to the person creating the time bubble.
A. No, you’ll see Wayne create one, then he’ll walk up to the perimeter, but if he leaves it, it ruins the time bubble.
Q. Zas678- So is that because it’s linked up to the spiritual gravitational bond between the planet?
A. Yes, and you’re digging very deeply into stuff that I now can’t answer. Time bubbles have some weirdness to them that I don’t want to dig in too deeply, but yes.

[Senor Feesh]

I don't know whether distension is correct or not (seems like a better fit for objects passing into/out of a bubble) but I like the idea of the train 'tunnelling' through the bubble, effectively creating a space of normal-time within the bubble rather than distorting the bubble to keep an unbroken event horizon. (For the purposes of this example, imagine a bubble large enough to encompass the cross-section of the carriage, or if you want to get off the train analogy, could also work with a hose).

 

Unfortunately, I don't see this working out too well, as this would require an object (let's say a javelin) passing through the event horizon to be wholly in or out of the bubble (Brandon-confirmed, as an object is ALWAYS wholly in or out) whilst also technically straddling the event horizon. I don't see a way to resolve this conflict easily.

[Kurkistan]

@Senor

 

The way to resolve this conflict easily is to subscribe to distension: the javelin is distending the surface of the bubble.

 

The thing is, I can't really see a pure "tunnel method" working out that well, now that I think of it.

 

I'll giver you a scenario: Wayne is on a train and wants to throw up a bendalloy bubble. We know that he'll very quickly be pulled out of the bubble (popping it) because the train is moving and the bubble is stationary relative to the ground, but we only really need the bubble to exist for long enough to speed up his watch by half a second.

 

Now, if some "tunnel" theory holds, the train, since it is not effected, is punching a hole clear through the middle of Wayne's bubble. So anything outside the boundaries of the train should be affected, but not the train, nor its occupants. Therefore, Wayne doesn't get to feel any effect from his bubble, because it has been cancelled around him.

 

This raises an additional problem that Wayne will never actually reach the "edge" of his bubble, simply its virtual edge where the bubble should end if it hadn't been occluded by the train. Not a crippling problem, but worrying considering that we know he'll be "pulled out of it, then it would vanish."

 

Under a distension theory, however, the bubble is "squeezed" within the confines of the train: it begins its existence at Wayne, then expands until it hits the inside edges of the too-large train. This way, the bubble still exists within the train and can affect people within the train, but some externally-cast bubble would still be incapable of "reaching into" the train from the outside. So Wayne's watch goes forward a tick (and he shoots the length of the bubble in half an instant as he's accelerated (relative to the train) at 8x30mph) and order is restored to the universe.

 

Does this make sense, or do you still dislike the distension theory?

[Senor Feesh]

Ah, apologies, perhaps I was unclear. I was actually saying I see the distension working more readily than the tunnelling. Tunnelling would be a cool idea but I can't resolve it with what we know from WoB regarding objects are always in/out. Distension solves the problem neatly, and does not allow for tunnelling (at least under my understanding).

 

So, if for example a bubble was cast outside of a tunnel of some description (let's stick with the train analogy for now). Say, someone on top of a stationary train creates a bubble large enough that it will reach under the carriage (and due to being centered on the caster, the same distance in each direction - this is a pretty big bubble!).

 

We know the train isn't affected, as only one part of one carriage falls inside the bubbles Area of Effect (AoE for you RPG nuts ). Under the notion of tunnelling, we would now have a bubble of fast (or slow) time with a tunnel (the train) running through it. However, if this were possible, this would require that the border of the bubble be re-routed around the train with two 'breaks' (one at either end of where the carriage meets the bubble). My understanding of bubble distension would require that the bubble remain unbroken, so the border, or event horizon of the bubble would have to be 'pushed' out of the way.

 

I guess the best way I can describe this would be like a balloon having something press against it from the outside without actually piercing - it would require a very drastic re-shaping to maintain integrity, and the edges of the bubble would not meet again on the other side of the carriage, creating another zone outside the bubble's AoE. In the case of someone standing atop the carriage, the area directly underneath the carriage would be outside the bubble's AoE due to the bubble distending around the train, rather than the train creating a tunnel through the bubble.

 

I don't know how clear that is. I may have to draw some simple illustrations, this kind of description is something I struggle with. Please let me know if this makes any kind of sense

 

Also, it may well be that your theory of bubble distension actually allows for the edges of the displaced bubble to meet and re-form around the object causing the displacement. Is that the case?

[Kurkistan]

Okay, sorry I misread you. I think you've got it about right.

 

As for the nitty-gritty of my "distension theory": it's really not that well developed. The plasticity of the bubbles, whether they re-form around objects (creating a tunnel-like effect in some cases, actually) and other questions are not answered. I would hazard that two halves of a bubble can and do "meet up" on the other side of some objects: such as a (very firmly rooted, but thin) poll stuck in the ground right next to the misting not splitting his time bubble in half.

[Satsuoni]

@Kurkustan: A little woozy now, but trying to answer your question:

According to the law of equivalence, the situation you describe is identical to moving particles hitting stationary bubble. Your description seems to be about right, except that you don't take into account the change of direction on entry. You'll end up with (assuming particles regain their speed, but not their direction) a bunch of particles going in different directions.

Regarding direction change, it is not pure refraction, or most bullets would bounce off the bubble, the speed difference is too great. It might be indeed random scattering as objects gain additional energy or lose it on entry and exit.