Long Game 12: Shadows of Elantris

[little wilson]

Now, the cycle 1 or 3 moving could have been the Duke/Duchess instead, but I do not feel like trying to work that one out.

 

......

 

I'm wondering if our Prince(ss) could be a cultist. I sorta trust Wonko for the moment, and the prince(ss) has targeted him twice now. 

 

Spencer said that he didn't get a PM about the Duke/Duchess in Cycle 1, so that was the Prince(ss).

 

I also think that the Prince(ss) is a Cultist. And I would also agree about Wonko, since when I was about to reveal my role to him and other pertinent information in a PM (yes, I know, I said don't roleclaim in PMs, but I had a momentary lapse of judgement and I was nearly certain Wonko was good anyway), rather than eagerly waiting to take my juicy morsels of info, he cautioned me against such foolhardy ideas, saying that he couldn't trust himself not to reveal anything to others accidentally. This strikes me as particularly village-like. A Cultist would surely champ at the bit for any good intel.

[Kipper]

Spencer said that he didn't get a PM about the Duke/Duchess in Cycle 1, so that was the Prince(ss).

 

I also think that the Prince(ss) is a Cultist. And I would also agree about Wonko, since when I was about to reveal my role to him and other pertinent information in a PM (yes, I know, I said don't roleclaim in PMs, but I had a momentary lapse of judgement and I was nearly certain Wonko was good anyway), rather than eagerly waiting to take my juicy morsels of info, he cautioned me against such foolhardy ideas, saying that he couldn't trust himself not to reveal anything to others accidentally. This strikes me as particularly village-like. A Cultist would surely champ at the bit for any good intel.

Or...not, if they were a smart Cultist.

Or...so, if they were a meta-smart Cultist.

Or...

[Herowannabe]

Edit: 

I think so. More it was, presuming the Duke did not vote last cycle, and presuming Bort did not use the Duke's vote, would the Duke's name appear anywhere, to which I believe the answer is no.

 

Correct. The Duke's name will not show up anywhere in the tally unless his business partner dictates a vote for him (Or if he got hit by a prince/ss, I suppose).

[Surgebound Rainspren]

Karlin peered around the spacious hall, was it just him or did one of the attendee's look slightly different, he pushed aside the thought. It was probably just a trick of the light! 

 

(Welcome Emerald)

Now back to the slave pits to finish this animation project!

[Haelbarde]

Correct. The Duke's name will not show up anywhere in the tally unless his business partner dictates a vote for him (Or if he got hit by a prince/ss, I suppose).

Awesome, thanks.

[Wonko the Sane]

Spencer said that he didn't get a PM about the Duke/Duchess in Cycle 1, so that was the Prince(ss).

 

I also think that the Prince(ss) is a Cultist. And I would also agree about Wonko, since when I was about to reveal my role to him and other pertinent information in a PM (yes, I know, I said don't roleclaim in PMs, but I had a momentary lapse of judgement and I was nearly certain Wonko was good anyway), rather than eagerly waiting to take my juicy morsels of info, he cautioned me against such foolhardy ideas, saying that he couldn't trust himself not to reveal anything to others accidentally. This strikes me as particularly village-like. A Cultist would surely champ at the bit for any good intel.

 

To be fair, I said it was your call. I absolutely wanted to know that info as much as any cultist; I just knew I have a tendency to be too open. Case in point: I just accidentally blabbed your role to the world.

 

And yeah, how did you become Queen? Aren't you just here to kill Claincy? Sounds like someone got a little sidetracked. 

[Haelbarde]

To be fair, I said it was your call. I absolutely wanted to know that info as much as any cultist; I just knew I have a tendency to be too open. Case in point: I just accidentally blabbed your role to the world.

 

And yeah, how did you become Queen? Aren't you just here to kill Claincy? Sounds like someone got a little sidetracked. 

Prefacing this with: _{*Wilsonpleasedon'tkillmeImsorryIwontdoitagainpromise*}

 

Well, if she want's to maintain her position as shshsh then she needs to be as close as possible to being a shshsh on this world - ie, Queen. So really, it's quite an obvious stepping stone towards that end goal. She just hasn't engaged shshsh mode yet. 

 

('Shshsh' has been used to filter out some words in an attempt to avoid invoking, and thus provoking the wrath of, the shshsh shshsh.)

Edited June 1, 2015 by Haelbarde

[Kasimir]

What?! I'm a Dula?! Hreo, I am disappoint! Why did you not tell me or give me special Dula powers?!

Apology accepted, Kipper, but I am still highly disappointed, O Faithless Lover. Why would you cast a vote on me? Was my devotion to you insufficient? Did you wish me to proclaim our love to the world? To abase myself before thee? For I shall:

Last night, by the dying tree, in your upraised palm, you held the leaves captive.

Tonight, O Beloved, within the heart’s walls; these eaves, I am your captive.

And what of the days—do you remember? Not one?—in the empty courtyard?

My whispered endearments/to adorn you/gilded wreaths—were they, too, captive?

Beneath my window, the nightingales are drunk on your beauty, O Lover,

I’m no nightingale; but like them, I sing most sweetly when I’m held captive.

I swore—upon the holiest of Names!—to forget you; to put you out of mind,

But the heart will heed no words, O my Beloved—and Reason is her captive.

What treachery is this? Turning me out in this wilderness of tigers?

Yesterday, I was no exile; in these fountained courts, I was no captive.

Flogged, I turn my face towards yours; before you, I abase myself anew.

I am nothing. I surrender myself: Kasimir-who-is-Love’s-captive.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Kasimir

[Haelbarde]

...So confused.

 

So wait, are you saying you're not the Dula, or are you being intensionally confusing as to leave it up in the air.

 

I guess Kas as Dula isn't the only option. Kipper could be lying about his Secret Votingness, or he could be the Duke, or he could be Lover with Kas - each would result in Kipper's vote being invalid. I would think that surely he'd not be Lover with Kas, because if so, he's just outed the pair of them. Kas as Dula seems like a reasonable possibility, but it's also possible Kipper's lying.

[Metacognition]

Get a room, you two. 

 

You do realize that it is now a Night turn, right? If everything that has been said is correct, you're basically offering yourselves up to allow the Cultists a double kill. You realize this, yes? Now, if we have two Warriors, they'd have to be stuck on you two or play the game of, "I know, you know" with them on which (if any) of you are defended or not....

[Bort]

We have the case of 2 votes on Wonko. Bort, did you use your Duke vote? You weren't clear if you were going to. And if you didn't, GM's, what do you mean that a Duke will appear as a 'no-vote'. Does that just mean that if they pretended to put in a vote, it would come across as not counting, rather than they'd appear in the vote tallies as not voting when they didn't vote? Presumably our prince(ss) struck again with using Surgebound's vote. 

It seems likely that the King/Queen is the reason for the extra vote for Maill. Looking back at the last two votes, these are the people involved in votes with an extra vote:

 

I was deliberately unclear on if the Duke's vote was being used or not, because if I came out and said who I was going to get them to vote for (or even if I was definitely using their vote), then it would be possible for the Cultists to use that info to work out who they are.

 

As it turns out, yes, I did use the Duke vote - They stole my vote last cycle, so it only seemed fair. In the interests of protecting their identity though, I'm not saying who they voted for. Only myself and Duke know that, and I'm planning on keeping it that way.

 

Edit: Haelbarde, I'm a little concerned about you openly discussing who could have what role. Unguarded comments over the past cycle have already ousted Wilson as Queen (and Kipper as Keeper, although that was more deliberately announced than "leaked"). Do we really want the world to know who holds the other important Villager roles? The clarifications you have requested, along with your information gathering, suggests an ulterior motive for gathering all of this data, and only the Cultists and Gyorn would need that info. Which are you?

Edited June 1, 2015 by Bort

[Haelbarde]

I was deliberately unclear on if the Duke's vote was being used or not, because if I came out and said who I was going to get them to vote for (or even if I was definitely using their vote), then it would be possible for the Cultists to use that info to work out who they are.

 

As it turns out, yes, I did use the Duke vote - They stole my vote last cycle, so it only seemed fair. In the interests of protecting their identity though, I'm not saying who they voted for. Only myself and Duke know that, and I'm planning on keeping it that way.

 

Edit: Haelbarde, I'm a little concerned about you openly discussing who could have what role. Unguarded comments over the past cycle have already ousted Wilson as Queen (and Kipper as Keeper, although that was more deliberately announced than "leaked"). Do we really want the world to know who holds the other important Villager roles? The clarifications you have requested, along with your information gathering, suggests an ulterior motive for gathering all of this data, and only the Cultists and Gyorn would need that info. Which are you?

That's fair. Also, to be clear (not that you necessarily were suggesting I was), I didn't out Wilson or Kipper. Rather, I was thinking it could be Dow, till Wilson admitted to being Queen.

 

Why am I openly discussing who might have which role? Well, I've bascially only played 2 games - QF7, and MR6. In both, PMing was so restrictive that bascially no one used PM's at all. As a result, the village had to work in the open to try and coordinate things in an attempt to find the Eliminators (which, incidentally, we failed to do both times). PM's are both more and less restrictive in this game - only some people can PM, but when PM's happen, continuous conversations can be had easily. I've not had the chance to have any big in depth conversations with anyone via PM, and nor has quite a few people - there are what, 4 maybe 5 seons (guesstimating) in the game, and one of them got corrupted by day 2. So I'm basically operating how I was forced to operate the last two games - try and bring everything into the open, see who can verify what and used that information to try and identify eliminators. 

People often say that the information that we get from Lynch votes is the most valuable information available to the Villagers - if that is true, then we need to decode the Lynch information, and by knowing who the vote manipulators are, we can start to identify whose voting patterns are suspicious.

 

If you want, I'd be happy to announce my role and alignment.

 

Hopefully that satisfies you to why I am playing the way I am. I had not considered what the consequences would be of getting information out there.

 

This seems to be as good a segue as any. I had a thought earlier today which sorta kickstarted my paranoia for this game - I've been saying I'm not sure who I'm suspicious of, and that was the truth. I hadn't really come up with any suspicions for who I thought could be a Cultist. All I had is one or two people I thought that I could probably maybe trust. But as I thought about how I had played this game so far, my feeling was that I had been playing in a really suspicious manner. I'd be active the whole time, posting and joining in discussion, but never really offering opinions, nor voting, complaining repeatedly about more experienced players (basically playing the "I'm new" card), and so overall not contributing much. I feel like I'd be in a good position if I were a Cultist or a Gyorn. But what makes me more suspicious is the fact that a number of players have be getting on the backs of a few other players in a similar position to me. An example of this was Honey Badger last cycle. Any comments about his activity and such like I felt like could apply equally well to myself. But no one's put me on the spot yet, asking why I'm not contributing. The only person who targeted me as suspicious was Clanky at the start of Day 2 I think, but all that did was attract 2-3 votes on Clanky, after which he retracted his vote.

 

I guess my point is, I feel like seeing as there has been some discussion regarding people who are active but not really contributing, but I've sort of been forgotten/not mentioned in these discussions. Am I'm mistaken on how I feel I've contributed to the game so far, have I genuinely be forgotten in these discussions, or have I been intentionally overlooked for some reason. 

 

Oh, and while I think about it:

 

I'd throw Hael on that list as well, even though he's played less than 5, simply because I noticed after his first game that he'd be a major threat.

Eeep. I Honored (I think...)

[Kasimir]

I'm going to answer some of the questions I was asked yesterday but didn't have time to address.

1. Kipper--it's water under the bridge now, so I'm not going to respond to your arguments. (Honestly, if you have an issue with how I'm playing this, feel free to take it up with me OOG, because I obviously don't want to be frustrating players unnecessarily with my playstyle.) However, if anyone feels like they would like me to respond to Kipper, then I'll do so.

2. Wonko: my contact is using a new Seon. I won't name them because I don't believe in role reveals (except under specific sorts of circumstances--see QF6...I think I've banged on about this long enough, no? What happened with Maili is an excellent example of why people shouldn't be telling Seon-holders their roles!) but I can confirm knowledge of seven different unique Seons being in play, including yours.
 
3. If Piff is the only person to have been replaced by a pinch-hitter, then we can look back at people who might've been inactive over the same period of time. Those who haven't been replaced have been working behind the scenes.
 
4. Then we have two people with Korathi pendants struck down in a single night. Wow. We're going through these things like no tomorrow. It looks to me as if the second person must've been an Elantrian or inactive: I'm going with the latter. (We know Ren had a pendant, which he gave to Phat to protect him. Phat's was expended defending him from the Cultists, and in any case, it wouldn't have mattered since he's immune to conversion. Zas had already been converted, so he can't have had the pendant. So it's pretty much Neo or an inactive.
 
5. Honestly, Hael, you were on my suspicions list, for the reason you and I both know. You just weren't extremely high, and in any case, it looks like I'm going to have to spend some time redoing that list. (As much as a pantser can...)

...So confused.
 
So wait, are you saying you're not the Dula, or are you being intensionally confusing as to leave it up in the air.

6. There is only one appropriate response to an 'or' question: Yes.

[Haelbarde]

6. There is only one appropriate response to an 'or' question: Yes.

Remember how I said you were the most annoying?

[Bort]

Don't worry Hael. I wasn't suggesting you ousted either of them. Wonko inadvertently outed Wilson, and Mailliw deliberately revealed Kipper's role. I don't know for definite if both are correct, but I think it would probably be safest for us not to reveal other roles in the thread. I was actually trying to do the same thing as you - work out who has what role, but privately. If I had a Seon, I'd PM you and we could try to work this out together, but I don't.

 

As far as your contributions go, granted, you've not been the most active member of the game, but you've not been inactive, and your posts have usually contributed to whatever discussion was ongoing, or like your posts in this cycle, have been fairly analytical (and for me, that's one of the signs of a dangerous player).

[Lightsworn Panda]

....Well, now that you've just said that, astute players will know what you mean.

 

I am the Queen. It's not Dow.

 

I fear for your subjects.

 

Welcome, Emerald!

[Bort]

We should charge for room and board in this SE thread. The number of 'Guests' coming through is ludicrous.

[little wilson]

To be fair, I said it was your call. I absolutely wanted to know that info as much as any cultist; I just knew I have a tendency to be too open. Case in point: I just accidentally blabbed your role to the world.

 

And yeah, how did you become Queen? Aren't you just here to kill Claincy? Sounds like someone got a little sidetracked. 

 

It's true, but I feel like if you were a Cultist, you wouldn't have cautioned me about it at all. And you didn't really blab my role. It was really just the timing of your comment. I count my role-out on my own head, though if I'd had a more important role, I would've found some way to keep it under-wraps. Queen may be the ruler, but in terms of what I can do, there are far bigger threats out there.

 

It's all part of the plan. I'm simply waiting for him to cross me so I can say "Off with his head!"

 

Prefacing this with: _{*Wilsonpleasedon'tkillmeImsorryIwontdoitagainpromise*}

 

Well, if she want's to maintain her position as shshsh then she needs to be as close as possible to being a shshsh on this world - ie, Queen. So really, it's quite an obvious stepping stone towards that end goal. She just hasn't engaged shshsh mode yet. 

 

('Shshsh' has been used to filter out some words in an attempt to avoid invoking, and thus provoking the wrath of, the shshsh shshsh.)

 

For one who claims to not want to be on my list, you're doing an awful lot to poke me at every opportunity. I'm starting to see your disclaimers for what they really are: a weak attempt at covering your true desires to be on every list I have. (Not that I have lists, and even if I did, I wouldn't fall to such clear manipulation.....or would I?)

 

Unguarded comments over the past cycle have already ousted Wilson as Queen (and Kipper as Keeper, although that was more deliberately announced than "leaked"). Do we really want the world to know who holds the other important Villager roles? The clarifications you have requested, along with your information gathering, suggests an ulterior motive for gathering all of this data, and only the Cultists and Gyorn would need that info. Which are you?

 

Considering that the Priest has been outed, and Hael's not trying to figure out the Warriors, I don't think it really matters if the Cultists learn who the Dula is or the Duke/Duchess. The discussion on the vote manipulations could help lead us to the Prince(ss), who I think multiple people agree is a Cultist. Is there a reason you don't want us discussing this? Could that reason perhaps be because, as I said last night, you are a Cultist?

[Kipper]

What happens with Lovers' votes when they vote on each other. Don't the names just get removed?

The whole premise that I (as a Lover) voted for Kas is just absurd. Why would I intentionally make a vote that I knew would be messed with? Of course, you might say, "Well that's reverse psychology," but honestly, what reason would a Lover have for doing that. Also, Kas is smart enough not to reveal that we are Lovers, if indeed that is the case.

[Claincy]

Role reveals everywhere! You could all be just a touch more careful couldn't you? Though I suppose Wilson would have been known sooner rather than later given how difficult the Queen's role is to conceal. Still, the cultists now have a good number of tempting targets which makes it even harder for our warriors to do their job.

 

Responding to Meta's reasons for suspecting me:

I've been active for roughly a full cycle at this point, in which time I have made multiple posts, aired suspicions and contributed to the discussion. Yeah, I'm still not as active as I've sometimes been and frankly I'm not going to be. I'm still sick & in exam period so frankly there are limits to how much energy and time I can devote to the game.

 

Speaking of, it's past 1am at this point and I'd like to recover sometime in the next fortnight if at all possible (time-scale not actually a joke), so I should really go to sleep. And besides, it's nighttime, I can hopefully get some proper analysis and discussion done tomorrow.

[little wilson]

Still, the cultists now have a good number of tempting targets which makes it even harder for our warriors to do their job.

 

I disagree. The warriors focus should be on Phatt, though if a warrior has a seon and hasn't used it already, it would much appreciated if they'd get in touch with me. If both have seons, we can direct their protection better. It would be redundant to have Phatt protected twice tonight since that would leave him open for a hit tomorrow. The cultists could well just not even bother hitting at him tonight because they figure he'll be protected.

 

And as for why I'm offering myself: normally i wouldn't do that, because I don't expect people to trust me, but Phatt cleared me. I suppose if you want to use Ren, that would work too, but we're the only two that have been absolutely cleared by Phatt. And since I'm sure there are people wondering if Phatt is actually the Priest, I was about 80% certain he was after my PM conversation with him the night he got taken by the Shaod, but I wasn't about to say that here in the thread nor was I about to admit that I was anything more than uncertain about his alignment here in the thread either, since I was trying to protect him until I could guarantee that he was, in fact, the Priest. Unfortunately, he's been outed and now we just need to keep him alive, since he's still the best way to find the Odiv without just killing all of the converts.

[Bort]

Considering that the Priest has been outed, and Hael's not trying to figure out the Warriors, I don't think it really matters if the Cultists learn who the Dula is or the Duke/Duchess. The discussion on the vote manipulations could help lead us to the Prince(ss), who I think multiple people agree is a Cultist. Is there a reason you don't want us discussing this? Could that reason perhaps be because, as I said last night, you are a Cultist?

 

I have no ulterior motive other than protection of identity. Or did you not see my comments about why I didn't mention the Duke's vote yesterday, and why I wasn't going to reveal anything about it today?

 

I've been in a few games now, and every one has had some kind of conversation like this. "Why don't we discuss who has what role?" "Because that makes them targets." Now, because I'm taking the defensive side to that argument, I must be a Cultist?

 

Gotta love this game, where saying one thing can have so many meanings.

[Seonid]

Well, since Mail didn't get around to contacting me with his Seon before he died, I guess I'll repeat my request to get added in to the Seon network.

[Kasimir]

Beautiful and cruel! Alas; where others have chosen the sun, I embrace an armful of thorns, for he who chooses to give his heart to the rose must as well know its thorns. I will make of thy name a song, sung so long as earth and sun shall abide; and when thou goest into the lamentable halls of Hades, never, albeit thou be dead, shalt thou lose thy fame.

Guys. May I assume that tonight, Phat is going to scan one of the two remaining Elantrians? (If the other turns out to be not a Cultist either, although I don't know how likely this is, then we're really going to have to start looking at other points of contact and transmission. Certainly, while I'm wary of falling for a spanreed gambit, I do think Team Evil will have at least one Seon. But, I expect us to have a decent number of Seons too, to account for 1. Seon removal, 2. Seon corruption. So I don't countenance right now a witch hunt into the ranks of the Seon holders.

More importantly, I'm going to make a confession. The M'Hael sent me a vial of poison a cycle ago. I had been slightly suspicious because I saw no reason why I should obtain that, and my ma always told me never to take candy from strangers. Pretty sure she had 'vials of poison from Forsaken' in mind too

I know what you've been hinting at, M'Hael. I've been hanging on to it--first, in case it was a trap, and second and more importantly, because I wanted to use it as a delayed role-block, rather than sending someone into Elantris, since we already have Seons for that. At this point, I'm coming forward because the poison action comes before the kill action. And as the M'Hael noted, it may be useful to be able to send someone we want scanned into Elantris so Phat can do his magic.

For that reason, I'd like our discussion to expand out to people it'd be good to have Phat scan To prevent myself from being ninja-ed by the Cultists, I will randomly pick someone on that list to poison and to send into Elantris. If you prefer me to hang on to the poison, I'll send it discreetly to someone I trust to use it, since I've effectively painted a target on my back and my Beloved's. Note that a poisoned Seon-holder can still use their Seon.

This is all.

[little wilson]

I have no ulterior motive other than protection of identity. Or did you not see my comments about why I didn't mention the Duke's vote yesterday, and why I wasn't going to reveal anything about it today?

 

I've been in a few games now, and every one has had some kind of conversation like this. "Why don't we discuss who has what role?" "Because that makes them targets." Now, because I'm taking the defensive side to that argument, I must be a Cultist?

 

Gotta love this game, where saying one thing can have so many meanings.

 

Forgive me if I take that comment with a cup of salt. I don't trust you one iota, and while I appreciate the anonymity you're giving the Duke/Duchess, the fact remains that we asked the vote manipulation roles to not use their ability. The Duke/Duchess chose to. They took a risk. While I think they are probably a villager, there's a chance that they're an eliminator too and your protection is actually a hindrance. Or you could be an eliminator and you and your teammates are figuring out who the Duke/Duchess is at this very moment in the doc.

 

Each is game different. Each game has different problems that the village has to overcome. Not only that, but depending on the players, the dynamic will be different. Yes, there are some players who are absolutely against talking about any roles whatsoever. And there are some roles I feel that way about. In this particular game, we shouldn't be trying to publicly discover who the Priest and the Warriors are. Unfortunately, the Priest is now public. I'm positive that we can't do much more damage than that (unless the warriors became public knowledge as well, and then we're rather SOL). So yeah, I don't think talking about vote manipulation roles when villagers aren't supposed to be using them right now anyway will hurt much. On the contrary, it could help find an eliminator or two.