Adolin Radiancy? (Potential Spoilers)

[DSC01 he/him]

I don't know. I think that Windrunners probably would object to how Adolin killed Sadeas, but I'm not 100% certain. Was that really dishonorable? I mean, Sadeas presented a serious threat to the lives of individuals, to their country, and to all of Roshar. However, he was a crafty little snake. He was clever enough to never present the kind of threat that his society would accept as grounds for taking him on. This is a guy who openly tells people that he's going to ruin their lives, engineer multiple deaths, and continue to have no regard whatsoever for the value of anyone's life. But he'll never do that with a sword in his hand. It seems odd to me that so many people are so hard on Adolin for killing him. I think Adolin will be haunted by it, and I wouldn't say it was the ideal way to do it, but what's the alternative? Let him continue to kill people and ruin preparations for a coming apocalyptic event, just hoping to trick him into doing something that he wriggle out of? 

[Guest]

I don't know. I think that Windrunners probably would object to how Adolin killed Sadeas, but I'm not 100% certain. Was that really dishonorable? I mean, Sadeas presented a serious threat to the lives of individuals, to their country, and to all of Roshar. However, he was a crafty little snake. He was clever enough to never present the kind of threat that his society would accept as grounds for taking him on. This is a guy who openly tells people that he's going to ruin their lives, engineer multiple deaths, and continue to have no regard whatsoever for the value of anyone's life. But he'll never do that with a sword in his hand. It seems odd to me that so many people are so hard on Adolin for killing him. I think Adolin will be haunted by it, and I wouldn't say it was the ideal way to do it, but what's the alternative? Let him continue to kill people and ruin preparations for a coming apocalyptic event, just hoping to trick him into doing something that he wriggle out of? 

 

Was it dishonorable? We had that discussion not too long ago... The answer was it depends on who's point-of-vue you decide to adopt.

 

It is considered dishonorable by some because Adolin jumped on an unaware opponent who was not posing a physical threat at the moment. Many considered any fight conducted outside open warfare, official dueling or in self-defense to be dishonorable, especially considering the fact Adolin is assumed to be the superior factor (younger, stronger, faster, more talented). It is also assumed the Honorspren would agree with this definition. This argument is also fueled by what Kaladin, arguably the most honorable character on board, would have done or not and we all know he would not have killed Sadeas in a corridor.

 

Those who considered it dishonorable also feel Sadeas's threatening was not enough to justify direct action. The man had no leverage considering Dalinar has been proven right. His threats were empty.

 

Others considered it was honorable because Sadeas, as you say, posed a threat. He had just ranted on how he would never ever stop trying to undermine Dalinar and the only outcome likely to satisfy him was either him or Dalinar's death. It is a known fact Sadeas would have carried on this threats, these weren't empty. Those also think it is also false to assume Sadeas could not have done any harm and false to think the Highprinces will all range themselves being the Bondsmith simply because he was right about one thing. It can be argued Adolin did the world a favor and prevented the future death of countless of innocents. His motives were right: he did it for Dalinar and not himself nor vengeance. 

 

Some, such as myself, agree jumping on Sadeas unprepared was dishonorable, but the fight itself was fair. I'd argue Adolin is wounded enough to even the odds, worst, I believe he is wounded enough to give Sadeas the advantage in any fair fight. The only reason he prevailed was because he had the element of surprise with him and the fact Sadeas likely did not know about his wrist. I also disagree Adolin necessarily is physically stronger than Sadeas: he certainly is the better swordsman, but I don't think he is the superior street fighter.

 

I count myself in the second camp. I agree Adolin did the right thing, morally even if it was illegal, but I worry about him. I believe he did lose control of his emotions which is something he'll need to learn how to manage. I feel horrible for him, likely because I know how it feels to have your inner cup so filled up you can't do anything else but blast. I also think Adolin could not have walked away with a clear conscience. I believe they truly had no other way to deal with Sadeas and letting him live, after his tirade, was condemning the princedom to an open-war. He had to go, even Brandon agrees with this and Adolin was the only one who could deal with it, which means, I believe, he was the only one who loved enough to push himself beyond his limits to forget the legal issues to take him down. I hate what it'll do to him though and I already hate Dalinar for going too hard on his son as I suspect he will.

[DSC01 he/him]

I suspect Ialai will become a big problem, too. And that will probably fuel Adolin's guilt, when he begins to feel that killing Sadeas didn't accomplish anything. 

 

I understand the viewpoint that it wasn't altogether honorable to dispatch Sadeas as Adolin did, but the situation is kind of like the classic idea of using a time machine to go back and kill Hitler. It would probably be really hard to find Hitler being an immediate threat to anyone, but he still caused the death of millions. Sadeas wouldn't intentionally commit a genocide, of course, but his meddling, if successful, would derail preparations for the Desolation and have the same effect (and his intentions are bad enough to condemn him, anyhow, without worrying about the unintended disaster he would cause). 

 

I suspect that Adolin killing Sadeas will be very important for his character, though. I always thought people made too much of the "broken" requirement for Radiants. I got the impression that Syl was talking about the human condition in general, not saying that Radiants had to be particularly broken people. However, I recently read a WoB indicating that there must be gaps in people's spiritwebs that allow Investiture to get in and fuel their various powers. That makes me think that I was mistaken. If so, Adolin needs something like this to break his spirit a bit and give the bond a place to take root.

[Cemci she/her]

I think just killing Sadeas won't be enough to break Adolin's spirit in the same way Shallan (family life), Kaladin (Tien's death), Dalinar (Gavilar's death) and Renarin (epilepsy perhaps? or in any case childhood experiences) were broken. I think we'll need a lot of things to pile up and put pressure on Adolin for him to crack - killing Sadeas is only the first step, what will have a more significant impact will be the consequences of that killing. 

 

Regarding Ialai, I think her involvement will be contributing less to Adolin's guilt and more towards his physical demise. Remember that Ialai has an apparently impressive spy and assassin network; from what we've seen of Torol's and Ialai's interactions, Sadeas was only really able to carry out his attempts on the Kholins because of Ialai's help ('we may have to start using your assassins'). Jasnah's notes on the Sadeas couple said that Ialai is also politically shrewd, so you're right in that killing Sadeas didn't accomplish a whole lot, but I think Sadeas' death could potentially put Adolin at least (I think Ialai will figure out fairly quickly that Sadeas' death came at the hands of somebody close to the Kholins) in serious danger.

[DSC01 he/him]

Oh, definitely it will take more than just that one event. But I think that will certainly be the catalyst.

 

As for Ialai, I don't know if she'll immediately suspect Adolin. I doubt that anyone will, if he keeps it secret (and I'm sure he will--for a time). However, her husband's death will spur her to action, and I think that she will prove to be more dangerous than Adolin et al had ever imagined.

 

I don't think Adolin would be a primary target for assassination. Elhokar and Dalinar would be more likely. Regardless, I believe that she will reveal herself to be more than someone with a strong network of hired killers. As soon as she realizes that Sadeas is gone, she'll probably step in and start playing the same games he did, likely to even more devastating effect. And that will definitely make Adolin feel really guilty. He'll already be full of conflicted feelings about killing Sadeas, and as soon as he sees that Ialai just stepped up to fill the same role, the excuse that he keeps trying to comfort himself with--that Sadeas had to be taken out, for the good of all Roshar--will seem very holow.

[Guest]

A poor message, the previous much better one was accidentally erased.

 

I suspect Ialai will become a big problem, too. And that will probably fuel Adolin's guilt, when he begins to feel that killing Sadeas didn't accomplish anything. 

 

Especially if the new Highprince of Sadeas turns out to be worst than Sadeas... Imagine it, he goes at length to eliminate a terrible threat to his father only to unleash a worst one.

 

You do need cracks into your spirit web, but you don't need to be completely broken down. There are still many gaps in Adolin as a character. There were events in his life which no doubt affected him. 

 

 

I suspect that Adolin killing Sadeas will be very important for his character, though. I always thought people made too much of the "broken" requirement for Radiants. I got the impression that Syl was talking about the human condition in general, not saying that Radiants had to be particularly broken people. However, I recently read a WoB indicating that there must be gaps in people's spiritwebs that allow Investiture to get in and fuel their various powers. That makes me think that I was mistaken. If so, Adolin needs something like this to break his spirit a bit and give the bond a place to take root.

 

You do need cracks into your spirit web, but you don't need to be completely broken down. There are still many gaps in Adolin as a character. There were events in his life which no doubt affected him. I sincerely believe he has been piling up issues for years now, carefully building his own very stable card castle, but recent events has made it shaky... The aftermath of Sadeas's death will make the castle topple over and all will pour out.

 

 

I think just killing Sadeas won't be enough to break Adolin's spirit in the same way Shallan (family life), Kaladin (Tien's death), Dalinar (Gavilar's death) and Renarin (epilepsy perhaps? or in any case childhood experiences) were broken. I think we'll need a lot of things to pile up and put pressure on Adolin for him to crack - killing Sadeas is only the first step, what will have a more significant impact will be the consequences of that killing. 

 

I don't think the murder by itself is sufficient, but I do think the consequences will be horrible for him. I think his story arc has the potential to be as heart-wrenching as Kaladin or Shallan, even if it does not involve physical abuse or torture... Being disowned, thrown out of your family, shunned away by those you love, abandoned for a crime you committed to protect them is plain horrible. At least with the abusive father, you never knew him any differently. Losing the trust of the "good father" must be somewhat hard.

 

It also raises the question as to what happens, in the long run, to the nice person who always thinks of others before himself, who always act in their interest before his own on the day he becomes the one who needs help, but is deprived from it because nobody ever thought he'd ever need it?

 

 

Regarding Ialai, I think her involvement will be contributing less to Adolin's guilt and more towards his physical demise. Remember that Ialai has an apparently impressive spy and assassin network; from what we've seen of Torol's and Ialai's interactions, Sadeas was only really able to carry out his attempts on the Kholins because of Ialai's help ('we may have to start using your assassins'). Jasnah's notes on the Sadeas couple said that Ialai is also politically shrewd, so you're right in that killing Sadeas didn't accomplish a whole lot, but I think Sadeas' death could potentially put Adolin at least (I think Ialai will figure out fairly quickly that Sadeas' death came at the hands of somebody close to the Kholins) in serious danger.

 

Ì do think Adolin's life will be in danger over the course of the next book. Everyone will try to get a bite of him while he is in his most vulnerable state. 

 

 

I don't think Adolin would be a primary target for assassination. Elhokar and Dalinar would be more likely. Regardless, I believe that she will reveal herself to be more than someone with a strong network of hired killers. As soon as she realizes that Sadeas is gone, she'll probably step in and start playing the same games he did, likely to even more devastating effect. And that will definitely make Adolin feel really guilty. He'll already be full of conflicted feelings about killing Sadeas, and as soon as he sees that Ialai just stepped up to fill the same role, the excuse that he keeps trying to comfort himself with--that Sadeas had to be taken out, for the good of all Roshar--will seem very holow.

 

Adolin was the Sadeas's target for a while now... Take out the family's prized Golden Boy. She will go for him.

 

Good point for Adolin's guilt though. I had wonder how long he will hold it before he actually starts to crack down...

Edited October 30, 2015 by maxal

[DreamEternal]

I just want to point out that, while I don't think Adolin's killing of Torol Sadeas was evil, I can't see it as better than walking away, since Sadeas was disacreditated, Urithiru was found, Dalinar is glowing and the world is ending.

The Kholins could very well just force Sadeas to abandon his shards and titles without losing their credibility, perhaps even imprision him. A great part of the backstabbing in the alethi politics happens because of the many immunities of a person in power, but displays of obvious superiority, like defeating four shardbearers in the duel of the century, can be used to allow more direct punishments.

In this case, the Kholins became the heros of the millenium, and Sadeas would gather very little support if he stood against them, while they are now so above him and everyone else that accusing him of conspiration and assassination attempt could actualy work now, since all Highprinces are neutral or allied to the king.

Edited October 30, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

You do need cracks into your spirit web, but you don't need to be completely broken down. There are still many gaps in Adolin as a character. There were events in his life which no doubt affected him.

You do need cracks into your spirit web, but you don't need to be completely broken down. There are still many gaps in Adolin as a character. There were events in his life which no doubt affected him. I sincerely believe he has been piling up issues for years now, carefully building his own very stable card castle, but recent events has made it shaky... The aftermath of Sadeas's death will make the castle topple over and all will pour out.

I agree. We know his mother died when Adolin was 13. I suspect that Adolin never properly dealt with his grief. He had to bury his emotions to take care of his younger brother and a father devastated by his wife's death. He became the man of the household before he was ready. In my opinion, this is why he clings to parental figures so much. Edited October 30, 2015 by thegatorgirl00

[Plaeggs he/him]

Nah, don't read the first pages! These were written nearly two years ago... You have to read the latest pages 

 

Also, the fact we already have an Edgedancer doesn't prevent Adolin to become one. We do know we have met two, so far and Brandon confirmed we would be getting multiple Radiants per order as soon as book 3. Currently, Lift is an interlude character and while Brandon did say she would eventually become a major character, that is not to happen until the second half of Stormlight. Until then, she is to remain a recurring interlude character. Her progression as a Radiant will thus be dimly explore through those. Having a more important character such as Adolin become an Edgedancer is not redundant, especially given how different he is from Lift.

 

If you go back and read a few pages, you can find the argumentation as to how Adolin doesn't fit the Dustbringers at all. I believe it is an erroneous impression many readers get due to the fact Adolin is more often viewed from the 3rd person. Those 3rd persons are not drawing a complete nor accurate portrayal of Adolin. Once, you get to analyse all the clues, you get a very different perspective on the character and that perspective gives us the perfect Edgedancer.

 

Edit: I have just noticed this thread is not that old... I am confounding it with one of the older Adolin threads. There used to be quite a few "Adolin this", "Adolin that". I have forgotten what was discussed in which. You can read the first pages, I make good argument for the Edgedancers on the early pages 

Two edgedancers? Are you speaking of Ym? I was going on the assumption that he was a truthwatcher, not an edgedancer, unless I missed a part where he uses abrasion. 

[Guest]

I just want to point out that, while I don't think Adolin's killing of Torol Sadeas was evil, I can't see it as better than walking away, since Sadeas was disacreditated, Urithiru was found, Dalinar is glowing and the world is ending.

The Kholins could very well just force Sadeas to abandon his shards and titles without losing their credibility, perhaps even imprision him. A great part of the backstabbing in the alethi politics happens because of the many immunities of a person in power, but displays of obvious superiority, like defeating four shardbearers in the duel of the century, can be used to allow more direct punishments.

In this case, the Kholins became the heros of the millenium, and Sadeas would gather very little support if he stood against them, while they are now so above him and everyone else that accusing him of conspiration and assassination attempt could actualy work now, since all Highprinces are neutral or allied to the king.

 

I don't think the Kholins have the leverage to force Sadeas to abandon his Shards. Dalinar stated how he did not even have the leverage to do the same for Amaram, despite having him openly confess to his betrayal. They can't imprison him either unless he admits guilt, which he hasn't. That's part of the reason Adolin had his hands tied: you couldn't morally leave the man be, but he couldn't legally act. The poor got so overwhelmed by his own emotions he snapped and killed him. 

 

As for the rest, I think you are going on the assumption the return of the Radiants will be acclaimed... Have you considered the possibility the other Highprinces, while admitting Dalinar has been right about one thing, is not trustworthy due to him and his entourage now being Radiants? Radiants were feared and are not trusted... what makes you think the Highprince will gladly followed Dalinar? 

 

I personally bet they won't. 

 

 

I agree. We know his mother died when Adolin was 13. I suspect that Adolin never properly dealt with his grief. He had to bury his emotions to take care of his younger brother and a father devastated by his wife's death. He became the man of the household before he was ready. In my opinion, this is why he clings to parental figures so much.

 

 I have been tentatively trying to present this aspect of Adolin in a few threads, but I rapidly found many just aren't ready to read him as anything else than the arrogant spoiled prince Kaladin so readily hate. The general assumption, in the community (not necessarily the 17th Shard, I am thinking in much larger terms here), is Adolin's life was an easy walk in the park and he has never encountered any hardships, the Sadeas ordeal likely being the first "real issue" he'll have to face.

I strongly disagree with this notion as it completely ignores events we know occurred in his past. I have seen discussions where people advocated the death of the mother, the fact the Blackthorn likely wasn't a great father have taken its toll on Renarin (it likely affected him, I am not saying it didn't, but it isn't the conversation currently at hand), but nobody never wondered what it did to Adolin... He lived through the same events, but somehow many readers has decided it was a not issue. Many readers have, from a common agreement, decided these events, while being traumatic for Renarin, were not significant to Adolin and certainly did not change the assumed perspective on the easiness of his life.

 

Adolin is just a spoiled brat... His mother died while he was on the verge of entering his teenage-hood, his father was a warlord who likely spend more time slaughtering people than being at home, his brother is sick and autistic, he has been rejected by every single girl he ever dated (sure it's his fault more often than not, but from his POV he tells us how clueless he is about the entire deal, had anyone ever tried to imagine how it feels to not be deemed sufficiently interesting to past the first 2 dates boundary?), his father suffered two massive depressive events following both his wife and his brother's death while being a drunk... In which world isn't it considered enough to carry on a few wounds? 

So why? Why are we running on those assumptions?

 

Because he was not broken... So does it mean you need to be broken for events to have affected you? Some people don't break readily, some people will always try to move forward, anchoring themselves to stableness, pushing themselves forward despite the hardships, until the anchor hits the empty and then, they crash. Everyone has to deal with issues, some just absorb the blows without any qualm until they can't take it anymore. Only then do they realize how much they have been hurting.

Adolin, as a young man, has readily self-declared himself the protector of his family. Sure, Dalinar stands above him, but he sees it as his duty to protect his father, to care for him and for his brother. It goes beyond being a good son. My thoughts are thus the same as yours: he did bury his own sadness in order to care for his sick autistic brother and his depressed father. He did step up as the man of the household while still being a child himself. Nobody likely ever checked on him, wondering if he was fine while everyone likely checked on Renarin, the sick and weak child. Nobody ever wonders if Adolin is alright... that's a common statement. It is just assume, within the Stormlight Archive, he'll push through whatever is thrown at him.

 

However, I do think Adolin has not dealt with his mother's death quite so much, which is why he still looks up to Navani as a surrogate mother, why he yearns for her to take on this role... His entire behavior with her is quite telling, he is looking for a maternal figure. As for his father, he clinks to his own childhood perception of his father, the super-hero. There's something there... He should have grown out of this, he shouldn't still stare wild-eyes in awe at his father... that's strange.

He is clinging to parental figures despite having reached an age where most young persons detach themselves from those. Probably because he lacked those figures while growing up, but he is not able to properly identify it.

We also saw how he dealt with Sureblood's death: initial shock then burial in the scope of more pressing matters. He tells himself to grief later, but has he? Has he grief for his Rhysadium or is it going to snap back at him the day Dalinar asks him to ride on again with the army? I suspect this is exactly how it went down with his mother: initial shock then swallowing of tears in order to appear strong and confident for Renarin and Dalinar.

 

 

 

Two edgedancers? Are you speaking of Ym? I was going on the assumption that he was a truthwatcher, not an edgedancer, unless I missed a part where he uses abrasion. 

 

We don't know. There is a recent WoB stating we have met two Edgedancers. Does it include current Edgedancers or future ones, it is unclear, but yeah, it could be Ym or someone else.