Adolin Radiancy? (Potential Spoilers)

[Cemci she/her]

The hardships that Shallan, Kaladin and Renarin (being called 'the useless one') went through are sort of what make me look forward to Adolin's storyline. There have been too many hints at his potential future to now drop an execution sentence on him for that little murder, and so anything that happens to him will impact not only him, but people around him. All the Urithiru-based Radiants we know of are close to Adolin - Kaladin as a close friend (or something similar to a friend), Shallan as betrothed, Renarin and Dalinar as direct family. Any hardship that Adolin goes through (I'm in the RadiantAdolin camp) will affect how his relationships function. Adolin isn't just uncertain in future books, he's one of the only uncertain elements we currently have. We can guess at what Kaladin might experience going back to Hearthstone, we can guess what Shallan, Renarin and Dalinar might so, but there's no telling what Adolin will do or what will happen to him, which is why he's so fascinating. 

[Lookalike]

@maxal @Kaladin Al'Thor

I belive you're making a fallacious argument by dismissing the stonewarden possibly through stubbornness. My reasoning is twofold. First, stubbornness isn't a primary attribute of the stonewardens, but a personality trait they commonly share. They are stubborn because of their dependability, they believe in themselves or the ideals they follow and will not break. You're comparing the primary ideal and philosophy of one order to a personality trait of another. Second, Maxl by your own reasoning we understand that Adolin's motives cannot be fully known, we are interpreting what we see from an outside viewpoint.

Going into the duel Adolin wasn't attempting to prove his skill versus four opponents but two, so he would have no reason to be stubborn as the situation was different. However, when the odds were evened and Adolin given the opportunity to fight teo opponents he did so. He was both stubborn and dependable here, even weakened Adolin knew he could prevail over two opponents. As Renarins skilled elder brother it would be his duty to try to save him. He would not abandon his brother, and the stonewardens would never abandon their duty, no matter the odds. Yes, he displayed love but orders aren't limited to one trait, they just hold some higher than others. The flexible nature of radiancy is displayed in Kaladin, he seeks to remember those fallen, heal and save. Kaladin would fit the Edgedancers with little problem however, his need to protect supercedes the other traits. Adolin mag be loveing, but love isn't what he holds most important, dependability is.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Lookalike

[Guest]

The hardships that Shallan, Kaladin and Renarin (being called 'the useless one') went through are sort of what make me look forward to Adolin's storyline. There have been too many hints at his potential future to now drop an execution sentence on him for that little murder, and so anything that happens to him will impact not only him, but people around him. All the Urithiru-based Radiants we know of are close to Adolin - Kaladin as a close friend (or something similar to a friend), Shallan as betrothed, Renarin and Dalinar as direct family. Any hardship that Adolin goes through (I'm in the RadiantAdolin camp) will affect how his relationships function. Adolin isn't just uncertain in future books, he's one of the only uncertain elements we currently have. We can guess at what Kaladin might experience going back to Hearthstone, we can guess what Shallan, Renarin and Dalinar might so, but there's no telling what Adolin will do or what will happen to him, which is why he's so fascinating. 

 

Yes. I do agree.

 

For me, Kaladin's story arc has become so predictable it has gotten boring, which is why I have advocate in several threads for a few twists to be thrown here and there. He is going to Heartstone, he will meet up his parents and will likely have mixed feelings over the event, he'll get his revenge one way or another with Roshone, he'll save the villagers and he'll lead them away while finding out an oath about leadership. He'll then go to Kholinar and save the city from the rebellion... Yawning. Too damnation predictable. I certainly hope it won't play out in such a straight-forward manner.

 

Shallan is going to keep on infiltrating the Ghostblood and also... huge yawn.

 

Renarin is more interesting because he has those visions so he may not be going where we think he is..., but Adolin...

 

We just don't know. No matter how long we discuss it, we just don't know. Worst, we don't even all agree into which order he should go.

 

 

@maxal @Kaladin Al'Thor

I belive you're making a fallacious argument by dismissing the stonewarden possibly through stubbornness. My reasoning is twofold. First, stubbornness isn't a primary attribute of the stonewardens, but a personality trait they commonly share. They are stubborn because of their dependability, they believe in themselves or the ideals they follow and will not break. You're comparing the primary ideal and philosophy of one order to a personality trait of another. Second, Maxl by your own reasoning we understand that Adolin's motives cannot be fully known, we are interpreting what we see from an outside viewpoint.

Going into the duel Adolin wasn't attempting to prove his skill versus four opponents but two, so he would have no reason to be stubborn as the situation was different. However, when the odds were evened and Adolin given the opportunity to fight teo opponents he did so. He was both stubborn and dependable here, even weakened Adolin knew he could prevail over two opponents. As Renarins skilled elder brother it would be his duty to try to save him. He would not abandon his brother, and the stonewardens would never abandon their duty, no matter the odds. Yes, he displayed love but orders aren't limited to one trait, they just hold some higher than others. The flexible nature of radiancy is displayed in Kaladin, he seeks to remember those fallen, heal and save. Kaladin would fit the Edgedancers with little problem however, his need to protect supercedes the other traits. Adolin mag be loveing, but love isn't what he holds most important, dependability is.

 

Kaladin is not loving. He never did anything out of love. He does not love his men, but he wants to protect them. 

 

Adolin loves his men, he befriends them, he laughs with them. He loves his family. He yearns to stay close to them and more importantly Adolin cares enough about others to actually take direct actions: saving the prostitute, staying in prison for Kaladin are prime examples. 

 

Healing is a harder one to picture, because Adolin is not a surgeon, but we are mistaken if we think all Edgedancers are going to be... surgeons. Adolin is seen to be glad his men are getting medical treatment after the chasmfiend hunt, working for hours and hours after the fight to make things right, being the only one who actually cared about the 50 dead men. He can't put his hands into it because he wouldn't even know what to do, but he wants to fix things, people, situations. He wants to fix Kaladin, to make him smile, to turn him into his friends, to tame the wild beast. He wants to fix his father, to make him be "right" again, so he wars against the Parshendis because, in his naivety he thinks it may help.

 

So yes, he is healing, but he lacks the skill and the knowledge, but he has tried to heal others, actively, whenever he can.

 

I also disagree the 4 on 1 duel was dependability, it was desperation and love that drove him forwards. The difference between a Stoneward and Adolin is the Stoneward would choose with a purpose the hopeless fight while Adolin won't unless he is forced to.

[GoddessIMHO]

RE: Kaladin is not loving.

I have to disagree on this one. I think we have seen over and over how much loving care Kaladin shows his men. In every battle before and after being a Bridgeman he has done everything in his power to save and care for the men he fights next to. Yes, he is a hopeless brooding mess half the time but he always returns to that core of taking care of others.  I have this evil little thought of shipping him Jasnah. She could be his Dom and give that boy some disipline until he shapes up. He'd probably like it.

[Guest]

I think you are confusing protective instinct and love. Kaladin has as strong urge to protect his men, but it does not sprout from a desire to care for them, but a desire to see the weakest of them all being offered some level of protection. He protects them because they befit his own personal criteria and he is being extremely discriminating in deciding who is worthy of his protection and who isn't. His entire story arc in WoR was to accept he may need to protect people he does not want to, people such as Ehlokar and the Kholins. 

 

Kaladin does not care for all of those he protects. He cares for some, but it does not transcend the normal level of care someone would have toward people you actually live with. He does not befriend his men, nor does he try to: all he sees is his duty to protect. 

 

So no Kaladin is not a caring person. It is not his driving nature, but it does not stop him from caring in a more personal level for some individuals such as Tien or Moash. It widely differs from Lift who cares for Gawx because "someone has to care". Kaladin does not protect the bridgemen because he thinks someone has to care, but because he thinks someone has to step in and protect them. They are widely different natures, even if they share some common ground.

 

Kaladin also does not make his pet project to fix people. The only reason he tried to muster the bridgemen out of their torpor was to turn them into a cohesive unit so they can fight back: he wanted them to help him protect the,

 

Why does Adolin tries to fix both Dalinar and Kaladin if not because he actually care for them?  Adolin's entire effort is immensely more personal I would say than anything Kaladin did and, more importantly, it does not discriminate. Kaladin decides who deserved him to protect, Adolin doesn't. Lift doesn't. Also both Lift and Adolin focus on specific individuals while Kaladin focus on a group. That's one major difference. 

 

Also while Adolin does want to protect Dalinar, he does not want to protect Kaladin... It is not protective instinct that made him stay in prison for weeks, but knowledge it was wrong and a strong desire to "fix it". That's another difference. Kaladin does not want to fix his men, but simply to see them to safety.

 

This being said, Kaladin can care and Adolin can protect, but it is not their driving nature, just as they can both be brave when circumstances call for it.

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

Kaladin was raised to save lives. He's known it would be his job to care for others since he was young. I think Kaladin views caring for others as his duty more than anything else. Besides Kaladin hated all Lighteyes indiscriminately for well over a book. I think part of what makes Edgedancers loving is that they care for people they don't know, people that others in their position would just ignore. Kaladin just doesn't have that same view.

In any case, it's not fair to say that Edgedancers are the only loving group. The first ideal involves choosing to uphold life. Even Jasnah, who we've seen kill people without remorse, wants to stop the Desolation and save lives. Caring seems to be a general requirement for every order.

[Guest]

Kaladin was raised to save lives. He's known it would be his job to care for others since he was young. I think Kaladin views caring for others as his duty more than anything else. Besides Kaladin hated all Lighteyes indiscriminately for well over a book. I think part of what makes Edgedancers loving is that they care for people they don't know, people that others in their position would just ignore. Kaladin just doesn't have that same view.

In any case, it's not fair to say that Edgedancers are the only loving group. The first ideal involves choosing to uphold life. Even Jasnah, who we've seen kill people without remorse, wants to stop the Desolation and save lives. Caring seems to be a general requirement for every order.

 

Edgedancers are the only group who makes "care" their main attributes which does not prevent other members of other orders to act caring in given circumstances. As I said, Kaladin can be caring, for certain people, but this feeling is not strong enough to transcend his other preoccupations.

 

We could also say the same about bravery... A lot of people are placing Adolin with the Dustbringers because he is brave. Yes, he is brave, but so is Kaladin and Dalinar and even Renarin... is he exceptional? No. What makes Adolin stands out is his desire to just help others which he has shown at multiple occasions and he did not discriminate. If he sees a wrong around him, he tries to fix it. He tries to help whenever he can with whatever tool he has in hand, no matter what the cost is to himself. That's being caring, emphatic. Kaladin would have never stayed in prison for Adolin or for anyone, but Adolin does. For a man he initially disliked. Without the guidance of a spren. That's something.

 

Kaladin's level of care is directly proportional to his desire to protect. If he sees harm coming his men's way: he'll protect, but if he sees one of his man being crushed over personal events, he won't actively try to fix him. He has been raised to care, but he failed the test. He did not chose to become a surgeon: he chose soldering because his desire to protect others was stronger than his desire to just care for them. He thought caring was not enough he has to stop the threats. This is very unlike Adolin, our reluctant soldier, who chose to become a soldier in a naive attempt to heal his father from his depressed bout following Gavilar's death. It was not protection that made him chose this career, but love. On the other hand, Kaladin's earliest desire was to kill to protect: he has always been about protection, despite what his father tried to teach him.

 

So while Kaladin can care, at some level, he is leagues away from an Edgedancer. Adolin, on the other hand, is rather close, but to see it, you have to move ahead of first impressions which are widely driven by 3rd persons POV and the public image Adolin is projecting of himself.... 

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

Edgedancers are the only group who makes "care" their main attributes which does not prevent other members of other orders to act caring in given circumstances. As I said, Kaladin can be caring, for certain people, but this feeling is not strong enough to transcend his other preoccupations.

 

We could also say the same about bravery... A lot of people are placing Adolin with the Dustbringers because he is brave. Yes, he is brave, but so is Kaladin and Dalinar and even Renarin... is he exceptional? No. What makes Adolin stands out is his desire to just help others which he has shown at multiple occasions and he did not discriminate. If he sees a wrong around him, he tries to fix it. He tries to help whenever he can with whatever tool he has in hand, no matter what the cost is to himself. That's being caring, emphatic. Kaladin would have never stayed in prison for Adolin or for anyone, but Adolin does. For a man he initially disliked. Without the guidance of a spren. That's something.

 

Kaladin's level of care is directly proportional to his desire to protect. If he sees harm coming his men's way: he'll protect, but if he sees one of his man being crushed over personal events, he won't actively try to fix him. He has been raised to care, but he failed the test. He did not chose to become a surgeon: he chose soldering because his desire to protect others was stronger than his desire to just care for them. He thought caring was not enough he has to stop the threats. This is very unlike Adolin, our reluctant soldier, who chose to become a soldier in a naive attempt to heal his father from his depressed bout following Gavilar's death. It was not protection that made him chose this career, but love. On the other hand, Kaladin's earliest desire was to kill to protect: he has always been about protection, despite what his father tried to teach him.

 

So while Kaladin can care, at some level, he is leagues away from an Edgedancer. Adolin, on the other hand, is rather close, but to see it, you have to move ahead of first impressions which are widely driven by 3rd persons POV and the public image Adolin is projecting of himself....

I was actually trying to agree with you in my last post… I suppose I didn't do a very good job.

More than anything, I was trying to make the point that the orders don't have a monopoly on their order's traits. Every KR is still human and still has as complex and varied a personality as anyone else. You can't just point to one instance when Adolin acted stubbornly and say he should be a Stoneward because of that. Everything we've seen about the bonding process seems to indicate that the Soren watch the people that they bond with for a while before any bond exists. Soren make these decisions after observing someone's motives and actions over a long period of time, and so should we. I think that when we do that for Adolin, he fits best with the Edgedancers.

[Guest]

 

I was actually trying to agree with you in my last post… I suppose I didn't do a very good job.

More than anything, I was trying to make the point that the orders don't have a monopoly on their order's traits. Every KR is still human and still has as complex and varied a personality as anyone else. You can't just point to one instance when Adolin acted stubbornly and say he should be a Stoneward because of that. Everything we've seen about the bonding process seems to indicate that the Soren watch the people that they bond with for a while before any bond exists. Soren make these decisions after observing someone's motives and actions over a long period of time, and so should we. I think that when we do that for Adolin, he fits best with the Edgedancers.

 

Nah I figured you are agreeing, I just wanted to add some more for the benefit of those reading it. Should have made it clearer. The rest of the post goes the same way. 

 

I do agree orders do not have the monopoly of their traits, but they are the one who embrace their given one the strongest. There are many reasons why I believe Adolin isn't geared for the Stonewards. There are said to be stubborn to a fault and they are said to resemble their Herald the most. Taln was known to take the most desperate spot in a battle and to defend it until the end, usually dying in the process. Of all Herald, he seemed to be the one who died the most often. 

 

If we look at Adolin now... Is he stubborn? Yes, but not absurdly so. Once he has an idea into his head, he'll stick to it until he is proven wrong. That's the key. He is not so stubborn he can't see his own wrongness and while he complains loudly, once he is convinced, he switches camp in the blink of an eye.

 

Is he dependable? Yes, he is very trustworthy. You can count on him in any battle, but not quite outside of it. When push came to shove, Adolin chose to stand on his own, to forget about the rules/codes his father enforced on him in order to favor his own morality, his own heart. He does it when he sits in prison for Kaladin, an event which caused a lot of yelling. Now we can easily guess who was yelling at you (yeah Dalinar likely was angry at Adolin for his open defiance of a king's order). He does it again when he murders Sadeas. He broke the trust Dalinar put in him in one strike of a knife because putting an end to the threat that is Sadeas was more important to him than following his father's words. His lack of control over his own emotions also tells of someone not dependable enough for the Stonewards. Adolin struggles to control himself all through the book. He loses it first after the Szeth encounter and in a fabulous way at the end. I bet we are going to see more and more unhinged Adolin in the next book, but his lack of capacity to quell his inner fire seems at odds with the Stonewards motto.

 

Is he resourceful? Yes, he is. He surprised us all by proving to be an apt military leader and by showing he did have an inner hamster spinning the wheel. He is a smart kid, but one too heavily influenced by his society, one who strongly want to belong, so he became a jock. Had he grown up in a different world, he would have likely done good with the academics. So yeah, Adolin is resourceful whenever he is standing in a known battlefield, but once he is faced with the unknown, he loses his groundings. We see it again when he faced Szeth. He can't figure out how to beat him, he was rooted out in a few seconds, the event seriously disturbed him to the point where he crafted a "plan". What plan it was... Never remove your Plate ever and never sleep ever. Wow. Way to go Adolin. That was being resourceful. For once you are faced with someone you can't beat and your great plan is to ruin yourself (to the point where you can't control your Blade, again wow kid, you sure prove them all) such as to lower your chances to find a way to get to him. Kaladin was the smart one here, by actually seeking Zahel's help.

 

So all in all, while Adolin is stubborn, dependable and resourceful, these are not driving attitudes in him much like bravery or care aren't driving ones in Kaladin. The one consistency we have seen in Adolin is standing up for those in needs, no matter the cost to himself. It also is trying to make things right, to fix the people around him, to focus on a pet project (typically a person) and to keep on finding out an angle to get to that person (yeah, I'm looking at you grumpy Kaladin). That desire, the impulse to fix wrongs, to do right is driving him forward more than any other quality he may have.

 

So yeah, I am firmly within the Edgedancers camp and not just because of the Blade.

[Lookalike]

Reread WoK, Adolin is repeatedly describes as "too similar" to Dalinar, specifically in chapters referencing Dalinars indomitable will.

"Kaladin also does not make his pet project to fix people. The only reason he tried to muster the bridgemen out of their torpor was to turn them into a cohesive unit so they can fight back: he wanted them to help him protect the,"

This is just incorrect, not much else to say.

During Kaladins flashbacks it was repeatedly made mention that Kaladin could not stand to see his patients die, because he cared too much. Saying he doesn't form friendships and love his men is also completely false, specific mention of this exists. Yes, he distances himself because he sees that as the duty of a commander, but to say he doesn't love his men is disingenuous. Kaladins driving desire is to protect, which is why he is a windrunner, but Edgedancers are extremely close in principle. Additionally, it's not fair to compare anyone to Lift as we know next to nothing about her. He know the second ideal of the Edgedancers and a little bit about a 12 year old girl, that's really not enough to draw conclusions from, I mean she's not exactly elegant yet that's a trait akin to the stonewardens stubbornness.

The Windrunners don't choose who to protect, they protect everyone. Kaladin has a flawed trait due to his past and that's what his entire growth is about. He's not a full radiant yet so to use his shortcommings as an argument is fallacious. Adidtionally, Adolin's leadership would place him close to the Stonewardens, that the Edgedancers.

Adolin has never displayed healing and loveing can only been seen by reading into his actions from a third party. However, Adolin has objectively displayed loyalty, bravery, dependability, and recousefullness. I don't see how displaying one of the attributes for an order is a stronger argument that displaying both of another. Someone who loved their father would have accepted his will and done what they believed best. Adolin stubbornly argued and held his position for months until Dalinars visions were proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Yet, despite Adolin's stubbornness Dalinar knew he could depend on Adolin to lead had he chosen to abdicate.

Adolin may also love, but jumping into battle at the thickest point, vastly outnumbered and prevailing is am almost exact description of the Stonewardens. Recousefullness? Adolin organizes sneak attacks, adapts tactics on the fly, and rapidly varies personal strategy, I don't think he's ever won the same way twice. Admittadly, Sanderson Loooves Red Herrings, so we're probably both wrong.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Lookalike

[Guest]

Adolin has next to nothing in common with Dalinar. He has passion, strong emotions, a capacity to impose his will and the seed of a good leader, some day, except he does not know that yet. He does not know he shares his father stern look and that his will can be equally implacable. Both men are stubborn when they think they are right, but both will easily switch side as none are prideful. The resemblance however stops there. Adolin is more emphatic than Dalinar, he reads emotions more easily, he gets the social cues without having to be told and more importantly, he is not a soldier at heart. He does not reveal on the battlefield such as Dalinar do. The only reason he wants to go on gem hunts is because he is worried how other Highprinces are perceiving his princedom as weak. It is all a matter of belonging and "being like everyone else", which is a dear theme to Adolin, especially in WoK. He grows slightly out of it in WoR.

 

Stonewards I suspect, are soldiers at heart. True warriors. Adolin isn't. He's a duelist, not a warrior, not a soldier, but this argument is based on perception upon the Stonewards role in the battle. 

 

If you read my posts carefully, being stubborn hardly is the only reason why I dismiss the Stonewards. Adolin is not dependable enough, he is not resourceful enough. These are not driving qualities in him much as "care" isn't a driving quality in Kaladin and while care and protection can be confuse at times, Kaladin's entire line of thought hardly ever go towards "care", but protection. I have also rectified my thoughts in a more recent post where I did state Kaladin can care, but it is not his driving nature. Had it been his driving nature, he would have asked to train with the surgeons again, but no. Kaladin's entire story arc in WoK was to find out if he could kill to protect. He did not enjoy simply caring for the injured, he wanted to kill the threats, to protect them. Care never was his driving motto. He has always wanted to be a soldier, to be this man killing the threats. To protect. 

 

And while it is true the Windrunners are supposed to protect everyone and not just the few, I find it strange the first two oaths were specifically design to teach Kaladin this particular lesson. I's thus wager it is not just Kaladin who may have had preferences into who deserved his protection and who didn't. If these were only Kaladin's shortcomings, then the first oaths would be something else, but they aren't. All Windrunners have to learn to protect those who needs it and all Windrunners have to learn to protect those they hate. All. Not just Kaladin, so it is not just him.

 

We may not know a lot about Lift, but we do know she was willing to die to try to help a dead boy she hardly knew because she felt someone had to care. If not her, then there was no one else. That's not quite the same epiphany as Kaladin who would have been more prompt to try to actively kill Darkness to protect the fallen boy, even if he lacked the means to do so. The text also illustrates how Lift does not befit her orders qualities and it unnerved Wyndle: he did not choose her. He did not want her. He wanted someone else, someone more appropriate, but he was stuck with Lift under the promise of "she will grow." Older Lift may surprise us.

 

I am sorry, but I do not believe the Stonewards are a good fit for Adolin, both personality wise and attribute wise. He is just not "the one who stands when all else has fallen". 

[Lookalike]

I'm not sure how you can argue he's not recourseful, Adolin is the most battle recourseful character we've seen to date. He's described as the best duelisthing in recent history. Doesn't stand when everyone else has fallen? He charges Szeth repetadly, even after his father has "died", even disarmed and proven inferior Adolin will not give in. When abandoned by Sadius Adolin I'd prepared to die with his men. Adolin doesn't run away and "remember" those fallen, he stands up and fights.

Lift didn't save someone she "hardly knew" she went back to save an ally she went in with and that died because of her. If you way to compare the two that's a key difference, yes Lift comes back but Adolin doesn't run in the first place.

When considering the words it's important to remember that the words themselves aren't important but the intent behind them. Radancy is a process, one that repairs broken individuals.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Lookalike

[Guest]

I'm not sure how you can argue he's not recourseful, Adolin is the most battle recourseful character we've seen to date. He's described as the best duelisthing in recent history. Doesn't stand when everyone else has fallen? He charges Szeth repetadly, even after his father has "died", even disarmed and proven inferior Adolin will not give in. When abandoned by Sadius Adolin I'd prepared to die with his men. Adolin doesn't run away and "remember" those fallen, he stands up and fights.

Lift didn't save someone she "hardly knew" she went back to save an ally she went in with and that died because of her. If you way to compare the two that's a key difference, yes Lift comes back but Adolin doesn't run in the first place.

When considering the words it's important to remember that the words themselves aren't important but the intent behind them. Radancy is a process, one that repairs broken individuals.

 

Adolin is resourceful, he is just not resourceful enough. He has trouble dealing with unexpected situations, not necessarily on the battlefield, but elsewhere. It is illustrated in his hardship with women: he does not know what to do. He can't think of solutions. The same goes for when he meets Szeth the first time: he gets so unsettled he can't control his Blade anymore. Him, Alethkar best duelist, can't send a simple command to his Blade. That should testify as to how unnerved he was at the time.

 

Adolin has plenty of resources when he's dealing with the expected, when he is on his favored fighting ground, the one where he has the most experience, namely the dueling court and the battlefield. As a person, he has a strong learning curve tightly linked to his own personal experience: if he's lived through it, then he has tools which he can use, then he is resourceful. When he is stuck with events falling outside his experience, he has no tools. He isn't resourceful then, so he angst, he fears, he stresses out. There is a reason why he goes through his routine before each duels, why he is seen to be nervous in front of fights he should not be worried about... He needs stability around him to be at his best, he needs to reproduce the environment which made it work before, because it is familiar (experience), but when it divert too strongly... That's when Adolin starts to get vulnerable. We have seen it twice: after the first Szeth encounter and at the end of WoR. So while our boy can be resourceful, he struggles to use those resources when the event strays away too widely from the things he knows.

 

And yes, Adolin can stand. If push into a corner: he'll fight as a wild beast. He won't give up, but the difference, I feel between Adolin and s Stoneward is the Stoneward would purposefully chose the desperate location. He would chose to go to the hopeless pass and defend it until death. He will choose to get cornered to make his stand. In all situations, Adolin did not chose to be there: it happened, so he had to do with it, but I doubt he would willingly go to his death in an impossible fight, on purpose (not because he was trapped into it), unless his loved ones are somehow involved. That's the key. Without an strong incentive to care for people he loves, Adolin would never take the stand Taln took early on in WoK during the last Desolation.

 

Yes, he remembers. Of all characters, he one of the only who thinks back of those who died. He does a few occasions. He does it in WoK after the chasmfiend hunt, where he is disturbed by his men dying. He does it more obviously in WoR, when he remembers the men who died because of Sadeas. Kaladin is the only other character we see express some sentient over the dead soldiers when he remarks on how empty the Kholin camp has gotten. We don't see Dalinar or Elhokar or Navani think so much about the event other than they need a plan. That is a very Edgedancer-y for Adolin to do.

 

From her own POV, Lift states she hardly knew Gawx. He was a one time acolyte, not someone she worked with often.

 

"You barely knew him, " Wyndle said. "Yet you mourn."

 

...

 

Who would cry for Gawx? Nobody. He'd be forgotten, abandonned.

 

...

She set Gawx on his back face toward the sky. He wasn't really anything to her, that was true. They'd barely met, and he'd been a fool. She'd told him to go back.

 

But this was who she was, who she had to be.

 

So no Lift did not know Gawx and she did not go back because it's her fault he died. She went back because she had to care, she couldn't not care, she couldn't simply forget he ever existed. This is not who she was. 

 

The words aren't important true, the intend is. The intend behind Kaladin's first oaths was to make him realized he needed to protect everyone, not just those he chose. Every Windrunner, I suspect, have to learn the same lesson just as every Edgedancer has to learn to care for those they shouldn't.

[Plaeggs he/him]

9 pages? No way I have time to read this. I think (from the first page's theories) that him becoming a dustbringer is very likely. There was a thread I saw a while back that suggested that Dalinar's gift from the nightwatcher might have been something to do with all of the members of his family becoming Radiants. Anyhoo, I believe that dustbringer is much more likely than edgedancer due to the fact that we already have an edgedancer, Lift, and so far no dustbringer. Adolin matches the "typical" dustbringer and though it may be a coincidence, we have yet to see two of the same type of nahel bond. It is true that there are so far very few surgebinders in the series, so any evidence could just amount to circumstance.

[Guest]

9 pages? No way I have time to read this. I think (from the first page's theories) that him becoming a dustbringer is very likely. There was a thread I saw a while back that suggested that Dalinar's gift from the nightwatcher might have been something to do with all of the members of his family becoming Radiants. Anyhoo, I believe that dustbringer is much more likely than edgedancer due to the fact that we already have an edgedancer, Lift, and so far no dustbringer. Adolin matches the "typical" dustbringer and though it may be a coincidence, we have yet to see two of the same type of nahel bond. It is true that there are so far very few surgebinders in the series, so any evidence could just amount to circumstance.

 

Nah, don't read the first pages! These were written nearly two years ago... You have to read the latest pages 

 

Also, the fact we already have an Edgedancer doesn't prevent Adolin to become one. We do know we have met two, so far and Brandon confirmed we would be getting multiple Radiants per order as soon as book 3. Currently, Lift is an interlude character and while Brandon did say she would eventually become a major character, that is not to happen until the second half of Stormlight. Until then, she is to remain a recurring interlude character. Her progression as a Radiant will thus be dimly explore through those. Having a more important character such as Adolin become an Edgedancer is not redundant, especially given how different he is from Lift.

 

If you go back and read a few pages, you can find the argumentation as to how Adolin doesn't fit the Dustbringers at all. I believe it is an erroneous impression many readers get due to the fact Adolin is more often viewed from the 3rd person. Those 3rd persons are not drawing a complete nor accurate portrayal of Adolin. Once, you get to analyse all the clues, you get a very different perspective on the character and that perspective gives us the perfect Edgedancer.

 

Edit: I have just noticed this thread is not that old... I am confounding it with one of the older Adolin threads. There used to be quite a few "Adolin this", "Adolin that". I have forgotten what was discussed in which. You can read the first pages, I make good argument for the Edgedancers on the early pages 

Edited October 28, 2015 by maxal

[DSC01 he/him]

I would like to point out that Kaladin doesn't really fit the Windrunners, himself (that is, not throughout the entire story). He has to grow as a person and internalize the ideals before he can truly achieve Radiancy. Sometimes, as with parts of his arc in WoR, his behavior is directly in opposition to the ideals he should be following as a Windrunner. That direct opposition to the ideals is a part of his character development. So when one finds Adolin behaving in ways that seem wrong for any order in particular, that could just as well be evidence for him eventually joining that order as evidence against.

Edited October 29, 2015 by DSC01

[Kaladin al'Thor]

I would like to point out that Kaladin doesn't really fit the Windrunners, himself (that is, not throughout the entire story). He has to grow as a person and internalize the ideals before he can truly achieve Radiancy. Sometimes, as with parts of his arc in WoR, his behavior is directly in opposition to the ideals he should be following as a Windrunner. That direct opposition to the ideals is a part of his character development. So when one finds Adolin behaving in ways that seem wrong for any order in particular, that could just as well be evidence for him eventually joining that order as evidence against.

I disagree.. I am re-listening to WoK right now and so far in every flashback he has brought up wanting to protect people. "What about the third group, the group that kills to protect." Every flashback of Kaladin's talks about protecting at one point.

 

Also, he is a squad leader at earlier than 19. Having been in the Marines myself, it shows that he is a very dedicated and skilled leader to be squad leader in his first enlistment. He wants to lead because he has no confidence in the capabilities of other men. He leads to protect. Aside from that, all other squad leaders that we have seen have been older men I'm pretty sure.

 

You can say that he didn't fit the third ideal of the windrunners when he was younger, but that is where he has grown. He has always fit the characteristics of the Windrunners IMO.

[Cemci she/her]

I would like to point out that Kaladin doesn't really fit the Windrunners, himself (that is, not throughout the entire story). He has to grow as a person and internalize the ideals before he can truly achieve Radiancy. Sometimes, as with parts of his arc in WoR, his behavior is directly in opposition to the ideals he should be following as a Windrunner. That direct opposition to the ideals is a part of his character development. So when one finds Adolin behaving in ways that seem wrong for any order in particular, that could just as well be evidence for him eventually joining that order as evidence against.

 

Fair point that Kaladin doesn't always behave according to the Windrunner ideals, but as a result, he loses his connection to Syl. In WoR, when he can't keep promises to Dalinar and Moash and remain honourable, his bond to Syl weakens. However, Kaladin redeems himself when he stands up to Moash and does what is right by protecting Elhokar. Adolin isn't exactly capable of redemption; he doesn't have a Nahel bond to redeem himself, and he has already murdered somebody - Kaladin stops himself before it comes to the point where he lets somebody die. I think taking actions that orders do not approve of probably stops the 'recruiting' spren from bonding with you - I don't get the impression that they stick around thinking 'maybe he'll redeem himself'. The relationship between spren and humans is more complicated, and spren in general don't necessarily trust in the goodness of mankind.

[DSC01 he/him]

And yet, there are orders that would judge that Adolin killing Sadeas was the right thing to do.

[Kaladin al'Thor]

Including the Edgedancers. I have seen a WoB on it.

[Guest]

Fair point that Kaladin doesn't always behave according to the Windrunner ideals, but as a result, he loses his connection to Syl. In WoR, when he can't keep promises to Dalinar and Moash and remain honourable, his bond to Syl weakens. However, Kaladin redeems himself when he stands up to Moash and does what is right by protecting Elhokar. Adolin isn't exactly capable of redemption; he doesn't have a Nahel bond to redeem himself, and he has already murdered somebody - Kaladin stops himself before it comes to the point where he lets somebody die. I think taking actions that orders do not approve of probably stops the 'recruiting' spren from bonding with you - I don't get the impression that they stick around thinking 'maybe he'll redeem himself'. The relationship between spren and humans is more complicated, and spren in general don't necessarily trust in the goodness of mankind.

 

And yet orders have accepted Dalinar who has murdered we don't know how many people and they have accepted Jasnah you murdered we don't know how many people and they have accepted Shallan who has murdered her parents... We also have WoB strongly indicating Szeth and Eshonai who both have murdered we don't know how many people for questionable motives are going to become Radiants.

 

It is not the action that matters, but the intend and Adolin's intend was much "purer" than Jasnah or Dalinar's. It is thus unfair to think Adolin cannot "redeem" himself from having killed Sadeas. In fact, his actions are much within the intend of many orders, so he does not even need to redeem himself, except perhaps in Dalinar's eyes.

 

 

Including the Edgedancers. I have seen a WoB on it.

 

It has been assumed all orders primary related to Cultivation would be fine with it.

[Cemci she/her]

My point wasn't  that Adolin could never be a Radiant because of who or the fact that he murdered, my point was that this murder excludes him from certain orders. There's a WoB that certain orders would be very happy with what he did, but I don't think spren from the other orders (orders who would disapprove of Adolin's actions) would stay around Adolin in the hope that he redeems himself in the eyes of the spren. I think Jasnah probably didn't lose her bond to Ivory even though she killed those thugs in Karbranth because the Elsecallers are technically okay with seeking out and removing evil for the greater good.

[Guest]

My point wasn't  that Adolin could never be a Radiant because of who or the fact that he murdered, my point was that this murder excludes him from certain orders. There's a WoB that certain orders would be very happy with what he did, but I don't think spren from the other orders (orders who would disapprove of Adolin's actions) would stay around Adolin in the hope that he redeems himself in the eyes of the spren. I think Jasnah probably didn't lose her bond to Ivory even though she killed those thugs in Karbranth because the Elsecallers are technically okay with seeking out and removing evil for the greater good.

 

Oh thanks for clarifying. It is not what I understood. I agree then. Skybreaker and Windrunner would not want him. 

[Kaladin al'Thor]

Oh thanks for clarifying. It is not what I understood. I agree then. Skybreaker and Windrunner would not want him. 

Honorspren do not care about laws. I dont think That action would exlude hiim from that order, I just dont think he fits there.

[Guest]

Honorspren do not care about laws. I dont think That action would exlude hiim from that order, I just dont think he fits there.

 

They may not care about law, but they do care about honor. They seem to strongly believe the only aggression possible is one of self-defense which is why Kaladin can't just murder people to protect others unless they pose direct measurable threads. In that optic, a Honorspren would frown on Adolin jumping onto an unarmed man out of anger.