Knights Radiant's Shardplate and blades *SPOILERS*

[Ari]

A sword may be traditionally a lethal weapon, but keep in mind that if the length of the blade is dependent on rare materials, you're making a tool that you don't have to worry about physical safety for, and it's designed to cut through inanimate materials, a sword is pretty much an ideal shape for such a tool.

I think the nonlethal tool hypothesis is okay, but there's no really good evidence for or against it at this stage.

A more likely possibility, I think, is that Shardblades were designed to pass through people but kill creatures of the void, (so they were weapons you could trust to a relative novice, possibly quite useful if you wanted the Radiants to focus on manipulating Stormlight) and Odium corrupted them to kill souls. (or Spren maybe? Neat little guess, that )

[CrazyRioter]

A more likely possibility, I think, is that Shardblades were designed to pass through people but kill creatures of the void, (so they were weapons you could trust to a relative novice, possibly quite useful if you wanted the Radiants to focus on manipulating Stormlight) and Odium corrupted them to kill souls. (or Spren maybe? Neat little guess, that )

that does make some kind of sense. I definitely believe that the Blades have been corrupted somehow, this is certainly a possibility as to the nature of that corruption.

[happyman]

that does make some kind of sense. I definitely believe that the Blades have been corrupted somehow, this is certainly a possibility as to the nature of that corruption.

If they were corrupted, they were corrupted before the Knights Radiant gave them up, because Dalinar sees people killing with them immediately after the whatever-you-want-to-call-it, when the Knights give up their blades. (It's a really odd vision. The KR don't act like real humans. Something is up.) Of course, some people speculate that they gave them up because they were corrupted, which is entirely possible.

[hogiewan]

Maybe a bit of a reach but:

1) Maybe its the wrong type of blade, maybe theyre sort of attuned some to windrunners, some to dustbringers etc?

OR

2) Maybe the way they make the blades/plate for a KR somehow hurts or traps the spren theyre bound to?

OR

3) Maybe its just that they had never spilled human blood before and now that they have theyre kinda tainted?

[Straff Venture]

We can see that not everyone in the Stormlight Archive is a windrunner like Kaladin and Szeth. That would imply that each order of the Knight's Radiant had some sort of inborn power involved. Shardplate in the modern day is such that anyone can wear it with no change in power, but what if the old radiants who were in the order that used Shardplate were the only ones that could make it glow, and therefore it was more powerful in their hands than the common man? Hope that makes sense.

[ChuckDieMoehre]

1. I think Syl's dislike for the blade comes from her general animosity of killing in general. Shardblades are tools of destruction/death (as far as we know)and therefore not really sth good.

2. Maybe the Knights Radiant gave up their arms because they found out that the Heralds abandoned/lied to them (about the victory over the Voidbringers) or some other similiar disappointing truth.

3. Are you sure Szeth can't use Shardplate? I had the impression that 1: he doesn'thave his own armor. and more importantly 2: that he wouldn't disgrace himself further by owning one. As i understood if anyone of the Shin/Shen (?)

picks up a weapon he/she becomes a slavelike warrior and what is worse than picking up a normal blade?...a shardblade

of course (by the way i think that's how someone becomes "Truthless").

4. My guess is that shardplates can be summoned like the blades once You put them on or at least dismiss/summon the helm (as noticed by Dalinar in one of his visions).

5. What i would really like to know is what the shardplates-blades were/are shards of. There must be a reason for that name.

PS: Please excuse my bad english, it is not my native language.

[The Count]

that does make some kind of sense. I definitely believe that the Blades have been corrupted somehow, this is certainly a possibility as to the nature of that corruption.

What if it was the people that were corrupted rather than the blades?

That is... for people who were honorable and had no violence / hatred in their hearts, the shardblade would simply pass through them.

For those who are warlike / selfish / odious etc the blade is lethal.

We know that the Radients were meant to be the warriors so other men did not have to be. We also, only have reference to people in a war / violent situation being killed by shardblades.

It's a bit of a stretch I grant you, but maybe the blades are fine, but people's souls have been corrupted.

((of course this does not explain why Syl dislikes the blade...))

Edited September 24, 2012 by MadRand

[Straff Venture]

Are you sure Szeth can't use Shardplate? I had the impression that 1: he doesn'thave his own armor. and more importantly 2: that he wouldn't disgrace himself further by owning one. As i understood if anyone of the Shin/Shen (?)

He states that the shardplate interferes with his lashings, which is theorised to be because it is so highly invested in power by honor. And for your future reference, its the Shin

[name_here]

So, in the Q&A thread Brandon revealed that we've seen three types of Shardblades. Which, assuming Honorblades don't count as Shardblades, is one more type than I can think of at the moment.

[dj26792]

What if honour blades are included, then we've seen classic 6 foot shard blades Szeth's weird little one and Taln's honour blade all in detail in the main narative.

[Cheese Ninja]

What if honour blades are included, then we've seen classic 6 foot shard blades Szeth's weird little one and Taln's honour blade all in detail in the main narative.

I think the same:

1. Honorblades (extra powerful, disappear upon death of wielder)

2. Normal Shardblades (6 foot single edges, materializes upon death of wielder)

3. Szeth's Shardblade (shorter, double edged, possibly even the source of his Windrunner abilities)

If typical Shardblades really do change the eye color of the wielder permanently to a lighter one, maybe they alter spiritual DNA? The other part of Brandon's reply indicated that some of the types of Shardblade had repercussions for incorrect usage, which is interesting. Also RAFOs on the what happens if a Shardblade tries to cut Awakened materials... When will we be reading about that I wonder?

[Voidus]

Not all RAFO's are literal, he might have just meant it would give away too much now and that later on we could probably tell whether or not it would even though it might not actually be attempted, also I think it would depend on how many Breaths the material had so it's tricky to answer anyway.

[dj26792]

We also know that shard blades impact on sDNA because they can be hemalurigically stolen. That was in oen of the other questions.

[Odium's_Shard]

Yes! Kurkistan asked that question for me! I'll summarize what he and I have been working on over on Cosmere Theories for this area (sDNA and hemalurgy) in the terms of eye colour change, and because its a Stormlight spoiler, I'll not mention any other system in detail.

So, the Blade is theoretically stored in the Spiritual realm. The user has access to this, as its storage 'location' is written into the sDNA. This 'extra gene' as such, in the unexpected way of normal DNA, has unexplainable consequences, that are always consecutive. In this case it is the formation of the protein coding for blue eyes. However, this suggests that in their very DNA lighteyes have the 'gap' made specifically for the Bladegene to go. In essence, something different may also go wrong (as other genes are pushed away) when a Darkeyes receive a Blade that is not a problem (or a benefit) to Lighteyes.

Just something heavy to think about! Feel free to ask anymore, I'll try my best to answer, or please challenge my theory! I love a good logical argument.

Odium's_Shard

[RenegadeShroom]

However, this suggests that in their very DNA lighteyes have the 'gap' made specifically for the Bladegene to go. In essence, something different may also go wrong (as other genes are pushed away) when a Darkeyes receive a Blade that is not a problem (or a benefit) to Lighteyes.

I'll admit, I'm far from having a good grasp on the more science-y theories and such, but you lost me here. Why would other genes be pushed away, and why would it incorporate a gap? I figure that Rosharans, having been created by Honour, simply have a gene in the sDNA that allows them to wield a Shardblade, rather than a gene being made whenever someone takes up a Shardblade, and therefore some kind of "gap" occurring in the sDNA/Spiritweb.

As I said, I don't have any delusions about having a good understanding of this stuff, so please forgive me if I misunderstood something. :U

[Arran]

Hello everyone, this is my first post on this forum. Happy to be here, though I'm miffed at myself that I missed the recent Q&A - I have a few questions that I would have loved to get answers to. Ah well, I'll try to get them in at the next Q&A.

Odium's Shard:

So, the Blade is theoretically stored in the Spiritual realm. The user has access to this, as its storage 'location' is written into the sDNA. This 'extra gene' as such, in the unexpected way of normal DNA, has unexplainable consequences, that are always consecutive. In this case it is the formation of the protein coding for blue eyes. However, this suggests that in their very DNA lighteyes have the 'gap' made specifically for the Bladegene to go. In essence, something different may also go wrong (as other genes are pushed away) when a Darkeyes receive a Blade that is not a problem (or a benefit) to Lighteyes.

I'm confused here. Do you mean that when a darkeyes bonds with a Shardblade, his/her eyes are always genetically modified to become blue? Why not other light colors, like green? Not all Shardblade wielders have blue eyes – Gavilar, for instance, had green eyes:

The king was still moving. Shardplate would protect a man from such a fall, but a large length of bloodied wood stuck up through Gavilar’s side, piercing him where Szeth had broken the Plate earlier. Szeth knelt down, inspecting the man’s pain-wracked face. Strong features, square chin, black beard flecked with white, striking pale green eyes. Gavilar Kholin.

Also, does you theory account for the Knights Radiant having very pale eyes, a detail that specifically attracted Dalinar's attention in his visions? (Maybe Knights Radiant, because of their magically-empowering and -binding Ideals, forge a "deeper" connection to their Shardblade and thus have paler eyes compared to current-day wielders who want only to selfishly gain a nigh-unstoppable weapon.)

Finally, and speaking from a purely personal viewpoint, it doesn't seem fair that a darkeyes would be affected by some problem due to bonding with a Shardblade, purely because his/her eye color isn't right, while lighteyes get a free pass. It feels like, well, magical racism.

[Cheese Ninja]

Think maybe they all started out as Darkeyes? Besides the Knights Radiants whose eye color changed due to Stormlight usage. Assuming the in book characters are correct about Shardblades changing eye color. (We haven't seen proof of this yet, Szeth's eyes change, but they also change back to normal when he puts away his Shardblade, which seems different from most other Shardblades in the series.) Also, I think Spiritual DNA is completely independent from real DNA. It leaves its mark on the individual and their descendants, but it's not something visible by examining a genome. That may or may not have been part of the argument that Odium's Shard was making. In the real world there are 16 or so genes responsible for human eye color. Wiki - Eye Color Not sure how much of that applies here, but we are dealing with a magical aspect on top of that.

Also, the blue color in human eyes is not a pigment, but rather a relative lack of pigment and light scattering in the same manner that gives the oceans and skies their blue appearance. Read the wiki article for more info. As far as DNA coding errors go, there's a few different types involving base pairs, but I got the impression that the space between genes isn't necessarily fixed. There's a lot of non-coding DNA on genomes. Again, not my area of expertise.

some of mycoltbug's questions in the Q&A:

2. Would a breath imbued object stop a shard blade?

RAFO

3. Is there any ramifications to the holder of a shard blade for using a blade in a manner that it wasn't intended?

Depends on the type of Shardblade. (You have seen three different kinds in TWoK.) For most, no. For some, most certainly.

4. Is it possible for a non-native being to use a shard blade?

Yes.

On the main topic of Odium's Shard's argument: If it's possible for non-native beings to use Shardblades, and if most Shardblades don't have ramifications for using them in a non-intended manner, then it's unlikely that Lighteyes are any better suited to Shardblades than Darkeyes. There's some wriggle room in Brandon's replies.

I think it's most likely that modern day Lighteyes are the descendants of those Darkeyes who claimed the abandoned Shardblades after the Recreance. With their power, they became the leaders, and when Sunmaker destroyed the Hierocracy he made sure everyone learned it simply learned it as "The Lighteyes were selected by the Almight to lead." Which brings up the questions: What happened to the descendants of the Knights Radiant? Shouldn't their children have had light colored eyes as well?

[Arran]

Cheese Ninja:

Think maybe they all started out as Darkeyes?

If you mean that all the first Shardblade wielders had dark eyes (and thus that lighteyes were excluded for one reason or another), I suppose it's possible, but it seems far-fetched to me. Surely there must have been worthy lighteyed candidates. Hmm, this gives me another idea: that the extremely pale eyes of the Knights Radiant are a method of signifying that they are worthy of wielding Shardblades, and that the "regular" light eyes are a sort of brand/warning to all others that the person wielding that Shardblade is unworthy of it. So if people came across a Shardblade wielder with regular light eyes, they'd know he wasn't a Radiant but instead a public danger and they should get word to Urithiru ASAP so the Radiants would intervene.

If it's possible for non-native beings to use Shardblades, and if most Shardblades don't have ramifications for using them in a non-intended manner, then it's unlikely that Lighteyes are any better suited to Shardblades than Darkeyes.

I hope that's the case. It would feel very unfair if lighteyes were inherently better suited to bond with Shardblades than darkeyes.

With their power, they became the leaders, and when Sunmaker destroyed the Hierocracy he made sure everyone learned it simply learned it as "The Lighteyes were selected by the Almight to lead."

That's certainly a possibility (if it's outright stated in TWoK, I'm afraid I can't remember that passage at the moment). We know from real-world history that elites will go to great lengths to maintain and justify their power and privileges.

Which brings up the questions: What happened to the descendants of the Knights Radiant? Shouldn't their children have had light colored eyes as well?

Good question. Who knows, perhaps their descendants, bereft of the spiritual/moral guidance of their forebears, began acting for personal gain like the darkeyes who picked up the Shardblades following the Day of Recreance. Heck, perhaps the Kholin family, which is generally made up of good people, is among their descendants.

[name_here]

I think he meant that there simply were no lighteyes before Shardblades were used.

I rather suspect that the reason lighteyes are in charge is pretty simply that anyone who picks up a Shardblade becomes lighteyed. And the collective of people with Shardblades can dictate policy to everyone else.

[Arran]

I think he meant that there simply were no lighteyes before Shardblades were used.

So, there would have been no lighteyes at all until the first Shardblade wielders, and they then passed on that genetic trait to their descendants? Possible, but IMO far-fetched. Hopefully the second book will have some answers.

I rather suspect that the reason lighteyes are in charge is pretty simply that anyone who picks up a Shardblade becomes lighteyed. And the collective of people with Shardblades can dictate policy to everyone else.

But then wouldn't the great majority of the darkeyes the new Shardblade-armed lighteyes coerced into servitude have rebelled against their oppressors? Or maybe that did happen, and the lighteyes have over the years suppressed knowledge of those early rebellions until everyone came to accept as natural and even proper that lighteyes be in charge... even if they're unworthy, callous, selfish bastards like Sadeas.

[name_here]

When a man has the capacity to cut your soul in half, one generally does what he says. And if someone were to successfully defeat that man and steal his sword, then he would become a lighteyes.

Also, it's probably been 7000+ years since the first Shardblade wielders. That's plenty of time for there to be an awful lot of them. I expect the strict divide came a while later.

[Zenith]

When a man has the capacity to cut your soul in half, one generally does what he says. And if someone were to successfully defeat that man and steal his sword, then he would become a lighteyes.

Also, it's probably been 7000+ years since the first Shardblade wielders. That's plenty of time for there to be an awful lot of them. I expect the strict divide came a while later.

I'm going to go with this: the people were simply beat into submission, and much of the rest was simply lost through time. Most people don't know how to read, so it's not unlikely.

[Observer]

Picking up a shardblade is supposed to make you a lighteyes, it's part of the mythos of the shardblades. And yet, Szeth's eyes go back to dark the moment he puts his away. This isn't an effect observed anywhere else in the book. Is it his nature as Shin, Wierdorunner, or Truthless that does this? Or maybe something else entirely? His lade-type perhaps?

[Straff Venture]

Picking up a shardblade is supposed to make you a lighteyes, it's part of the mythos of the shardblades. And yet, Szeth's eyes go back to dark the moment he puts his away. This isn't an effect observed anywhere else in the book. Is it his nature as Shin, Wierdorunner, or Truthless that does this? Or maybe something else entirely? His lade-type perhaps?

Maybe there is a type of nahel bond involved in gaining a shardblade, and seeing as szeth does not have this bond may explain why.

[name_here]

He believes it's unique to his particular weapon, which is certainly plausible given its differences from other Shardblades.