Bad Things are Not Synonymous with Odium!!!

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

This is a somewhat trivial matter, but it's been bothering me for some time now, and I had to complain. I constantly see people attributing things to Odium, simply because they are destructive, or violent, or treacherous. Now, I'm going to be very clear with this:

Not. All. Evil. Comes. From. Odium.

I don't understand why people seem to think that, because Rayse is turning out to be the villain of this particular plot, he must be the raw embodiment of villainy. Odium is the incarnation of hatred - nothing more, nothing less. The Highstorms may indeed be his doing - but we cannot jump to that conclusion simply because they are very destructive! Odium doesn't care about destruction. All he desires is hate.

Sorry about that. I generally avoid ranting, as it accomplishes so very little, but for some reason I have found this particular mistake to be extremely grating, to the point that I had to say something, not to bring about a change, but for the sake of peace of mind. I hope you will understand that this is very unusual for me, and that I am not at all a vindictive person.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Wonko the Sane

[Elwynn]

This is a somewhat trivial matter, but it's been bothering me for some time now, and I had to complain. I constantly see people attributing things to Odium, simply because they are destructive, or violent, or treacherous. Now, I'm going to be very clear with this:

Not. All. Evil. Comes. From. Odium.

I don't understand why people seem to think that, because Rayse is turning out to be the villain of this particular plot, he must be the raw embodiment of villainy. Odium is the incarnation of hatred - nothing more nothing less. The Highstorms may indeed be his doing - but we cannot jump to that conclusion simply because they are very destructive! Odium doesn't care about destruction. All he desires is hate.

Sorry about that. I generally avoid ranting, as it accomplishes so very little, but for some reason I have found this particular mistake to be extremely grating, to the point that I had to say something, not to bring about a change, but for the sake of peace of mind. I hope you will understand that this is very unusual for me, and that I am not at all a vindictive person.

I don't know that I would call the general consensus a mistake.

It depends on if you prescribe to the 'Hoid wrote the letter,' kind of thing, because I'm willing to go out on a limb and trust Hoid. And if he's the one who wrote the letter...It makes me consider Rayse pretty much the threat of the cosmere, with Bavadin as his lackey.

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

I don't know that I would call the general consensus a mistake.

It depends on if you prescribe to the 'Hoid wrote the letter,' kind of thing, because I'm willing to go out on a limb and trust Hoid. And if he's the one who wrote the letter...It makes me consider Rayse pretty much the threat of the cosmere, with Bavadin as his lackey.

Agreed. He is clearly a potently evil force, and one that poses an incredible threat to the entire Cosmere. However, that does not mean that he is the incarnation of all evil. Adolf Hitler presented an severe threat to our planet, but that does not mean that he was also the mastermind behind Hurricane Katrina, or the Ku Klux Klan. A person can be incredibly dangerous without having to represent the entirety of the universe's danger.

In a Cosmeric example, would you claim that Odium is behind the Dakhor Monastery? No? But then, if Odium is the force behind all evil, are the Dakhor not evil?

Edited December 21, 2012 by Wonko the Sane

[StormAtlas]

I personally dont think the high storms are evil or that they come from Odium. Just because they are destructive dosent mean they are evil. Just look at the mists from mistborn that even though they killed were actually Preservation doing. And high storms charge the crystals/money right? So they must serve some point.

[Nepene he/him]

"“Unite them. The sun approaches the horizon. The Everstorm comes. The True Desolation. The Night of Sorrows."

"And stormwardens whisper that the highstorms are growing more powerful.”

The true desolution, which is done by Voidbringers who are "horrors of rock and flame, dozens of feet tall, foes whose eyes burned with hatred. The Voidbringers."

The storms becoming more destructive is a sign of monsters whose eyes burn with hatred coming to mess everyone up.

It's perfectly reasonable to suggest that seriously bad magical things happening are a result of the only functional god messing things up.

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

"“Unite them. The sun approaches the horizon. The Everstorm comes. The True Desolation. The Night of Sorrows."

"And stormwardens whisper that the highstorms are growing more powerful.”

The true desolution, which is done by Voidbringers who are "horrors of rock and flame, dozens of feet tall, foes whose eyes burned with hatred. The Voidbringers."

The storms becoming more destructive is a sign of monsters whose eyes burn with hatred coming to mess everyone up.

It's perfectly reasonable to suggest that seriously bad magical things happening are a result of the only functional god messing things up.

I agree that there is a case to be made for it, but most people do not make it. Instead, they simply say the following:

The storms are destructive.

Odium is evil, and likes to destroy things.

Therefore, the storms come from Odium.

Now, in this case, flawed logic leads to a reasonable conclusion. However, it is this exact line of thinking that leads many to believe that Odium secretly orchestrated the Reod, as well - a statement that has been confirmed to be untrue.

Also, minor point about your wording: Cultivation's status is currently unknown, there may or may not be a fourth Shard on Roshar (what with Odium not being "native to Roshar"), and even Honor still has a measure of influence in the form of Surgebinding, so I would hardly call Odium the only functional Shard on Roshar.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Wonko the Sane

[Voidus]

It hasn't been confirmed that Odium wasn't behind the Reod, IIRC Brandon sidestepped the question to avoid answering. And we know that Odium splintered Devotion and Dominion, that seems like a reasonable leap to the breaking of the magic system.

[name_here]

Odium splintered Devotion and Domination before the Elantrians even found the city. The Reod happened much, much later.

[Nepene he/him]

Yeah, the Reod may well have been arranged by Dominion, or some agent of his that is seeking to reconstitute him.

Or Odium may have left a surprise for Elantris.

Or it may have just been an earthquake.

[Millennium]

Brandon said that Odium is as much about being hated as it is about feeling hate, so being seen as evil is certainly in Odium's nature. This does not necessarily mean that actually being evil is in its nature, but whether or not it is, it would be perceived that way. Everything we've heard about Odium thus far, we've heard through the enemies that it must, by its nature, have.

[Carthoris he/him]

Brandon said that Odium is as much about being hated as it is about feeling hate, so being seen as evil is certainly in Odium's nature. This does not necessarily mean that actually being evil is in its nature, but whether or not it is, it would be perceived that way. Everything we've heard about Odium thus far, we've heard through the enemies that it must, by its nature, have.

That may be true but what does Odium gain from causing evil and not taking credit for it? I personally don't think that the highstorms are the work of Odium. I think it would be more likely that they are a work of Cultivation and while I have no hard evidence for this I though that Stormwater causing plants to grow better might have been a hint.

[Kurkistan he/him]

That may be true but what does Odium gain from causing evil and not taking credit for it? I personally don't think that the highstorms are the work of Odium. I think it would be more likely that they are a work of Cultivation and while I have no hard evidence for this I though that Stormwater causing plants to grow better might have been a hint.

Tanavast talked about Odium (I think he referenced him directly) letting humanity fall to rust after they think they "won", the fight taken to the heavens with Man victorious on Roshar. If humanity knew that the highstorms were caused by Odium (because he should took credit for it, as you suggest), then the highstorms not stopping would be a bit of a hint at the ruse, no?

Actually--forgive me if someone else has brought this up before--that is fairly strong evidence that Odium has no part in the highstorms, or at least is not their sole cause. The Heralds would probably have known and passed on the fact that Odium, The Enemy during the Desolations, was the one behind the highstorms, so their claim that he was defeated wouldn't have held water from the get go when the highstorms failed to stop.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Kurkistan

[FlashWrogan he/him]

I agree that Odium shouldn't be automatically linked to anything evil. I do think there is quite a bit of evidence to make the case for Odium being linked to the highstorms. I make a pretty good case of it here

Tanavast talked about Odium (I think he referenced him directly) letting humanity fall to rust after they think they "won", the fight taken to the heavens with Man victorious on Roshar. If humanity knew that the highstorms were caused by Odium (because he should took credit for it, as you suggest), then the highstorms not stopping would be a bit of a hint at the ruse, no?

Actually--forgive me if someone else has brought this up before--that is fairly strong evidence that Odium has no part in the highstorms, or at least is not their sole cause. The Heralds would probably have known and passed on the fact that Odium, The Enemy during the Desolations, was the one behind the highstorms, so their claim that he was defeated wouldn't have held water from the get go when the highstorms failed to stop.

There is nothing to say that Odium's connection to the highstorms isn't one more thing that the Heralds chose not to share with mankind. Perhaps they feared that men would stop using stormlight or panic about this regular weather pattern.

[Kurkistan he/him]

There is nothing to say that Odium's connection to the highstorms isn't one more thing that the Heralds chose not to share with mankind. Perhaps they feared that men would stop using stormlight or panic about this regular weather pattern.

Maybe. *Sniff* Maybe.

I think the Herald's would have an incentive to share such a fact, though. I can think of half-a-dozen theological shenanigans you could pull to justify using the power of the enemy against him, or claim that Honor tries to counteract Odium's influence, which makes stormlight "neutral" or some such.

As for panicking about a regular weather pattern, I think that the regularity of highstorms is actually an advantage to people not panicking. It's "like" if you had a hurricane blow through town every week: sure, you can prepare for it, and perhaps even begin to think of that weekly hurricane as inevitable, but you can easily see how your life would be better without it. And then someone comes along and tells you that this hurricane is the work of Evil and that, by beating these scary voidbringers, you can also get rid of the hurricanes. The hurricanes have always been a negative factor in your life, and will continue to be so when you learn their true origin, but the difference now is that you have a way to stop them.

So, in the end, the Heralds get an even more motivated army and are also able to prove that Odium will still come back eventually for another Desolation whenever the highstorms don't stop.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Millennium]

That may be true but what does Odium gain from causing evil and not taking credit for it?

What indeed. In fact, is it even possible for Odium to fail to take credit for evil it caused, or would that go against its intent? Taken a step further, can Odium even defend itself against accusations for evil things it didn't do? Or would that go against its intent, much like the people who always pop up in the wake of sensational crimes and confess to them even though they are innocent?

Whatever viewpoints Shards have are fragmented and obsessive; we know this. If we can even call their viewpoints human at all, then they must all be seriously mentally ill, even the "good" ones. If Odium cannot defend itself against false accusations, then this would make it an extremely convenient scapegoat for other Shards looking to cover their own less-savory actions.

[Turos he/him]

What indeed. In fact, is it even possible for Odium to fail to take credit for evil it caused, or would that go against its intent? Taken a step further, can Odium even defend itself against accusations for evil things it didn't do? Or would that go against its intent, much like the people who always pop up in the wake of sensational crimes and confess to them even though they are innocent?

Do we really understand about a Shard's intent? Is this concept of a driving desire/compulsion verified as an actual attribute of each Shard? If so, Odium would not seem to be drawn to claim attention. He would loathe everyone, leading more to apathy. That is unless you consider it a 'dual-intent' where he actually desires to be hated.

Whatever viewpoints Shards have are fragmented and obsessive; we know this. If we can even call their viewpoints human at all, then they must all be seriously mentally ill, even the "good" ones. If Odium cannot defend itself against false accusations, then this would make it an extremely convenient scapegoat for other Shards looking to cover their own less-savory actions.

It's possible. The order of plot structure, though, seems to indicate otherwise. Brandon's a master when it comes to writing, and one of the key points to a story is introducing the antagonist, 'bad guy/force/phenomenon' aka the opposition, early on. We have news of Odium within the 'First Act' of the Cosmere's story. It could still turn out to be a big plot twist, but my money's on Odium, however there's for certain going to be a big surprise when it happens, somehow.

[Aethling he/him]

There is also the possibility that Odium just magnifies the hatreds already present. Humans have never really needed the outside influence of a god to make them hate each other.

There is a character in the Tamuli series whose very presence makes people want to fight and kill. Odium could very well be working that way with very little direct action. You can hate and cause hatred without actually doing any harm yourself.

The increased power of the highstorms could just be a natural phenonemon. There are cycles where hurricanes are far more powerful than other times. Katrina's year 2005 is a perfect example. There were so many Atlantic storms that year that they ran out of names and had to start using the Greek alphabet. Since then, no Atlantic hurricane season has been even close. Other than Katrina and Andrew, there really haven't been that many storms that could be called all that powerful, at least not in the US.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if it turns out that the relationship between the desolations and the weather is actually backwards of what most of us have thought. Instead of the storms strengthening as the desolations approach, it could be the desolations approaching due to the natural cycle of the storms becoming more powerful.

[TalenelStonesiniew]

Do we have any evidence that Highstorms have been around longer than the last Desolation? My personal theory is that Highstorms are a result of the shattering of Honor. In other words, compared to the cycle of desolations on Roshar, it is a fairly new phenomenon. Evidence against that would be that Jezrien is called the Stormfather as well as the peculiar geology and ecology on Roshar, but in the instance of Jezrien, that can be explained by the corruption of truth into legend. Highstorms could merely be Honor's last defense/gift to man to help combat the Final Desolation in the form of providing stormlight, since Honor can't directly empower the Surgebinders any more now that he is dead. The closer to the final desolation we get, the more powerful and common the Highstorms become, because humanity will need more stormlight to combat Odium.

[Kurkistan he/him]

^Dalinar's visions provide ample evidence. Past!Kholinar is still behind a lant, as is the village the Midnight Essences attack, and the landscape is suitably rocky. Also, the onset of terrible, city-destroying hurricanes is kind of a noteworthy occurrence that ought to have featured in the myth.

We know that Dalinar's visions all take place pre-shattering because otherwise Honor wouldn't be able to show them in such detail, and wouldn't talk in the past tense. I imagine he might have been able to hold on for a little bit after whatever shattered him, but not centuries or millenia.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Kurkistan

[TalenelStonesiniew]

I don't recall any specific mentions of highstorms in Dalinar's visions. I do remember him asking if there was a place they could go for protection during a highstorm and the woman he talked to was confused. The implication from that passage was that humanity didn't have access to soulstones to create such a place, but what if the real confusion is because there wasn't a need for such a place at that time? Or perhaps, maybe the highstorms did exist then but they didn't have the characteristic of providing stormlight.

I don't know, I may be rambling, but some how I think honor is responsible for the highstorms being able to provide stormlight. I also feel just as strongly that the increased ferocity of the highstorms are not a symptom of the Final desolation, but rather a reaction to it. I don't have concrete evidence, but it seems to be right.

[happyman he/him]

I don't recall any specific mentions of highstorms in Dalinar's visions. I do remember him asking if there was a place they could go for protection during a highstorm and the woman he talked to was confused. The implication from that passage was that humanity didn't have access to soulstones to create such a place, but what if the real confusion is because there wasn't a need for such a place at that time? Or perhaps, maybe the highstorms did exist then but they didn't have the characteristic of providing stormlight.

I don't know, I may be rambling, but some how I think honor is responsible for the highstorms being able to provide stormlight. I also feel just as strongly that the increased ferocity of the highstorms are not a symptom of the Final desolation, but rather a reaction to it. I don't have concrete evidence, but it seems to be right.

The real problem is that the changes the Highstorms make to the world are so drastic. Just look at the one interlude set in Shinovar. The landscape is wildly different (and much more familiar to us as readers.) If Dalinar had seen anything remotely like it in his visions, surely it would have been mentioned? Like, a lot? The only alternatives to that are that he was somehow acclimated to the differences subconsciously (not impossible; somehow language was transmitted to him unconsciously) or---the world looked perfectly normal to him. I tend towards the second. Too many references in the past seem to be standard Roshar, especially the comments just before the Recreance on the season.

Add to this that life on Roshar is amazingly well adapted to the Highstorms, and you have that either the world was remade really, really quickly to adapt, or it has always been like that. Somehow the first alternative should show up more strongly in the legends, I would think. It hasn't been *that* long.

[Senor Feesh]

I'm with you on this Happyman. Dalinar wasn't granted any knowledge of the midnight essence or the KR either during his visions. I would imagine that the language is something to do with the way the visions have been created, some kind of cognitive manipulation or some such. Making it so that the visions could be understood seems like it would be easier than total understanding of concepts outside of one's experience.

[Vortaan he/him]

I don't have my book on me, but didn't Dalinar's jaunt into the past mention crem, either seeing it or the settlement being designed so that it wouldn't drown in it? Either way is pretty solid evidence of highstorms.

[Leuthie]

Good things are not synonymous with Honor or Cultivation. Honor (in the form of serving whoever holds the oathstone) makes Szeth do a lot of murdering. Successful Cultivation requires pruning (for plants) and culling (for animals), both of which would seem pretty evil to the targets of the pruning and culling.

What makes it hard to really see what's going on so far is the neutral nature of the Shards involved. Even hate can be put to good use. The Alethi seem to be the bad guys. The Parshendi could very well be the good guys. The perspectives we are given by the author have so far put us in a bad position to judge anyone.

It's quite possible that the Desolations (culling the herd), the Oathpact (allowing Honor to gain something with each culling period by having champions), the Highstorms (providing a mechanism that powers life on what would otherwise be rock), the Parshendi (seem pretty damnation honorable), even the Voidbringers (we know nothing definite) are all a result of the interactions between Cultivation and Honor. All we know is Odium killed Honor (based solely on the words of Honor to Dalinar), is at least partially responsible for the constant state of war in Alethkar (based on a few death quotes and a conversation between Kaladin and an unknown entity related to the Highstorms), and is hated/feared by Syl. Everything else is unfounded conjecture.

[name_here]

The Highstorms probably were around during the visions. While they don't occur and aren't directly mentioned during them, they have a major influence on settlement patterns. The ancient cities were constructed behind hills to shelter them, and the village in the Midnight Essence vision was lightly built but sheltered.