Philosophy Behind Hemalurgy (spoilers)

[Vortaan]

True, but Allomancy and Feruchemy don't steal/tear souls apart. In a place with a confirmed afterlife (via Sazed), is ripping a soul into pieces ethical (with the knowledge that stealing a piece of a soul without killing someone will change them)? Hemalurgy brings up some very unsettling questions.

Without knowing more about the confirmed afterlife, it's hard to answer any questions. For example, what happened to Ati and Leras? Vin survived her brush with Ruin, at least in ghost form. Presumably so did both Leras and Ati. Or do Shards over-write someone's own soul over time? What about Marsh? If he's killed, is the afterlife now serving Marsh, party of 20 something?

Personally I think that what is taken from people with Hemalurgy isn't their actual self, but their connection to the power of Creation that Shards are the conduit of. Taken like that, it's likely that the person themselves moves on to said afterlife, or maybe a more purgatory kind of existence?

[Kurkistan]

Without knowing more about the confirmed afterlife, it's hard to answer any questions. For example, what happened to Ati and Leras? Vin survived her brush with Ruin, at least in ghost form. Presumably so did both Leras and Ati. Or do Shards over-write someone's own soul over time? What about Marsh? If he's killed, is the afterlife now serving Marsh, party of 20 something?

Personally I think that what is taken from people with Hemalurgy isn't their actual self, but their connection to the power of Creation that Shards are the conduit of. Taken like that, it's likely that the person themselves moves on to said afterlife, or maybe a more purgatory kind of existence?

Link:

ZAS678

Does the person being pierced in order to charge a Hemalurgic spike have to die?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Not necessarily. A spike does require you to rip pieces of a soul from the victim, but that does not mean they must die. They would be a very different person afterwords though.

So some measure of personality is probably messed with.

[Thor]

So are you saying it would be more ethical to kill them?

Thanks to everyone contributing! I particularly appreciate the input of Kurkistan and Obsever, so thanks guys.

--Gemmel

Edit:spelling and clarity.

Not necessarily, especially in regards to capital punishment. If the person gives their consent, one might equate it to assisted suicide or being an organ donor (depending on how much the personality of the person is changed/any spiritual effects, based on interactions with the Spirtual realm) but death row harvesting of spikes is probably something that goes too far (though, maybe not).

Without knowing more about the confirmed afterlife, it's hard to answer any questions. For example, what happened to Ati and Leras? Vin survived her brush with Ruin, at least in ghost form. Presumably so did both Leras and Ati. Or do Shards over-write someone's own soul over time? What about Marsh? If he's killed, is the afterlife now serving Marsh, party of 20 something?

*snip*

I was wondering about something related to the Marsh line: would it be possible to communicate with the spiritweb of the person who was taken by the spike via some magic system (think Hoenheim from Fullmetal Alchemist)?

Edited November 2, 2012 by Thor

[Vortaan]

Link:

So some measure of personality is probably messed with.

So second thought: what Hemalurgy takes is the connection between Spiritual and Cognitive aspects of a soul. Grafting this particular part of a spirit web onto someone else's soul effectively tricks the universe into allowing them access to abilities that they could not access normally. Somewhat supported by being to use it on animals and the idea that you could survive being used as source material for Hemalurgy. The way the magic works so far in the Cosmere, I doubt that removing any aspect entirely (Physical, Spiritual, Cognitive) would allow someone to continue existing.

[RenegadeShroom]

3. Could you use hemalurgy to save someone's life? I have no idea how, but interesting abstract concept think think about.

Well, assuming a hemalurgic donor that is a Bloodmaker or a Thug, then yes, easily. Although in order for any life-saving to occur in being granted Feruchemical gold, then the donor would have to provide filled goldminds.

But as a side question to that, I wonder if it's possible to heal people with mental illnesses via Hemalurgy? I think that Hemalurgy may have a few practical applications on Scadrial, certainly.

[Kurkistan]

Well, assuming a hemalurgic donor that is a Bloodmaker or a Thug, then yes, easily. Although in order for any life-saving to occur in being granted Feruchemical gold, then the donor would have to provide filled goldminds.

Easy fix. Double gold, compounding ftw!

[Thor]

Easy fix. Double gold, compounding ftw!

Maybe. That requires two donors and the initial storing of health to start compounding might kill the person who needed to be saved. Not to mention the trauma of a spike being planted (depending on the bind point and size of the spike, of course.)

[Kurkistan]

Maybe. That requires two donors and the initial storing of health to start compounding might kill the person who needed to be saved. Not to mention the trauma of a spike being planted (depending on the bind point and size of the spike, of course.)

The nice thing with compounding is that you barely have to store anything at all, initially. TLR spent time as an old dude for some reason, but we know that, normally, you can compound an attributes that you got initially from coumpounding. So you store 1% Health for 1 second and then compound that up to 10,000% Health for an hour with nothing beyond the initial 1% investment coming from the recipient. You could even cheat that by having, as Fungus said, the initial spike donor store a bit of Health in a metalmind before biting the bullet.

I still think double is the way to go. You sacrifice two donors instead of one (only twice the pain for a lot of gain down the road); as for the recipient, it's my impression that spike-recipients' souls "heal" after they spike is removed (see: Spook). Even if not, double damage for being spiked will still be offset by the speed of healing and how many people a single set of spikes can help in a lot less time.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Kurkistan

[king of nowhere]

It makes me think you could use spikes in an hospital.

You take them from volunteer donors in point of death, two spikes allowing double gold with some starting reserve. When an ill person is brought, you spike him in some nonlethal place to give him double gold. with that, the person can heal in seconds or minutes at most. he can then put some charge back into the spike (a spike can be used as a metalmind too) and have the spikes removed. that will result in a deadly condition changed to two non threatening wounds. if you can do it with something so small as an earring or a needle, bonus point, but even a stab in an arm would be ok compared to certain death without that treatment.

the spikes would remain in place too little time to have any effect on the personality.

Only problem is that the spikes will leak power with time, so after you heal some people with them you have to get new ones. You are dependent on augurs and bloodmakers donors to keep a storage of spikes. But if you can heal some hundred people with the same couple of spikes, it would be feasible. if that number was limited to half a dozen, than it would be too impractical.

[Thought]

TLR spent time as an old dude for some reason...

Probably for the sake of efficiency. After all, compounding age required that he burn Atium, which released the power of the metal back to the Pits, where it would take a long time to grow again. The more wasteful he was, the more Atium might be around for Ruin to get a hold of if he escaped. Being an old dude some of the time would slow how quickly he was draining age from his bracers, so it would mean that he'd have to compound less frequently, and thereby release atium but into the aether less frequently.

As far as your example of 1% health being turned into 10,000% health, that would presumably take a costly amount of gold. Allomancy gives you 10% back, so the sick dude would have to store health, burn it to get 10% health for 1 second, store that, burn that for 100% health for 1 second, store, burn, store, and burn, just to get to 10,000% for one second. Then again four more times to get an hours worth. I'm not sure how small metal can be and still be used as a metalmind, but that could get costly quick. Even storing more health for longer could still be costly, and not possible for the very sick.

Perhaps a better process would be to use a hemalurgic spike to take feruchemical healing, give it to a gold allomancer to fill all at once. Afterwards, the spike is removed and given to a patient, who taps just what they need, then taken back and given either to another patient or back to the allomancer, who fills and keeps it until needed again. That would allow the costs of the compounding to be shared among patients.

Though... having a doctor who might eventually develop homicidal tendencies could have its drawbacks.

[RenegadeShroom]

It makes me think you could use spikes in an hospital.

You take them from volunteer donors in point of death, two spikes allowing double gold with some starting reserve. When an ill person is brought, you spike him in some nonlethal place to give him double gold. with that, the person can heal in seconds or minutes at most. he can then put some charge back into the spike (a spike can be used as a metalmind too) and have the spikes removed. that will result in a deadly condition changed to two non threatening wounds. if you can do it with something so small as an earring or a needle, bonus point, but even a stab in an arm would be ok compared to certain death without that treatment.

the spikes would remain in place too little time to have any effect on the personality.

Only problem is that the spikes will leak power with time, so after you heal some people with them you have to get new ones. You are dependent on augurs and bloodmakers donors to keep a storage of spikes. But if you can heal some hundred people with the same couple of spikes, it would be feasible. if that number was limited to half a dozen, than it would be too impractical.

I can imagine that finding Augurs willing to donate their powers would be easier than finding someone who wishes to donate just about any other Allomantic ability, barring aluminium and duralumin, since it seems like a far less useful ability than the rest, at this point. Also, Augurs would be far easier to heal with Hemalurgy, 'cause you don't need to find an Augur to donate Allomantic gold to the patient. Very interesting idea with the spikes, too, temporary healing spikes, especially if they're spiking hospital staff to get the abilities.

Perhaps a better process would be to use a hemalurgic spike to take feruchemical healing, give it to a gold allomancer to fill all at once. Afterwards, the spike is removed and given to a patient, who taps just what they need, then taken back and given either to another patient or back to the allomancer, who fills and keeps it until needed again. That would allow the costs of the compounding to be shared among patients.

What about Allomantic pewter? Assuming a donor could be found, spiking the patient with Allomantic pewter and Feruchemical gold would work wonders, I think, and even without the F. Gold, the patient's life could still be saved with just pewter, I believe.

[Windrunner]

Another thing to keep in mind with the medical stuff, is that there was a direct hint from Brandon in the MAG that metalminds can be created that anyone can tap. If Scadrians figure this process out (probably has something to do with identity) they could create goldminds for anyone in need of immediate medical care, like heart attack or stroke victims or mortally wounded cops. So spikes may not be necessary for this particular process. Although, I don't envy the guy whose job it is to store health constantly.

[Ursus]

Another thing to keep in mind with the medical stuff, is that there was a direct hint from Brandon in the MAG that metalminds can be created that anyone can tap. If Scadrians figure this process out (probably has something to do with identity) they could create goldminds for anyone in need of immediate medical care, like heart attack or stroke victims or mortally wounded cops. So spikes may not be necessary for this particular process. Although, I don't envy the guy whose job it is to store health constantly.

Anyone meaning 'any feruchimist/gold ferring' or anyone meaning anyone?

--Gemmel

[Thor]

Another thing to keep in mind with the medical stuff, is that there was a direct hint from Brandon in the MAG that metalminds can be created that anyone can tap. If Scadrians figure this process out (probably has something to do with identity) they could create goldminds for anyone in need of immediate medical care, like heart attack or stroke victims or mortally wounded cops. So spikes may not be necessary for this particular process. Although, I don't envy the guy whose job it is to store health constantly.

Meh, just wait till a Gold compounder is around and then have them create the Health. With a high enough population there might be plenty of Gold compounders alive for hospitals (and pay them a lot, of course).

Good point on the "healing" of the spiritweb after the spike is removed, Kurkistan

Still, there are questions about what happens to a person who's spiritweb is disrupted after they die (which won't be answered till we know more about the afterlife of the Cosmere.)

Edited November 3, 2012 by Thor

[Senor Feesh]

Preservation for instance could keep doing what it does unopposed into eternity and no one would really mind.

As a counter-argument to this: imagine a world where nothing could change, because everything was preserved. Nothing could die, no new things could be created (because this would require a change in the preserved order of things). Could Preservation, if left unopposed manage this? I suspect the answer is yes (as for if preservation WOULD, well that's a different discussion, and depends on your interpretation of the shardic intent).

A world in stasis, perfectly preserved, and perfectly stagnant.

I'm sure some creative minds could think up some doomsday scenarios for other 'benign' or 'altruistic' shards (such as Honor) as well.

[king of nowhere]

Probably for the sake of efficiency. After all, compounding age required that he burn Atium, which released the power of the metal back to the Pits, where it would take a long time to grow again. The more wasteful he was, the more Atium might be around for Ruin to get a hold of if he escaped. Being an old dude some of the time would slow how quickly he was draining age from his bracers, so it would mean that he'd have to compound less frequently, and thereby release atium but into the aether less frequently.

As far as your example of 1% health being turned into 10,000% health, that would presumably take a costly amount of gold. Allomancy gives you 10% back, so the sick dude would have to store health, burn it to get 10% health for 1 second, store that, burn that for 100% health for 1 second, store, burn, store, and burn, just to get to 10,000% for one second. Then again four more times to get an hours worth. I'm not sure how small metal can be and still be used as a metalmind, but that could get costly quick. Even storing more health for longer could still be costly, and not possible for the very sick.

I used to think so, but it appears compounding don't really burn much of the material. Marsh only had one bag of atium to start with, and he's been around for 300 years and according to brandon he can keep going "for a long time", meaning an easily carriable bag of atium ccan compound for several centuries. And miles kept draining his metalminds all the time, and he had to buy the new gold. He was able to do so with a lawman pay, so either lawmen in the roughs are paid ludicrous sums, or he didn't need more than a few grams of gold per month at most.

Perhaps a better process would be to use a hemalurgic spike to take feruchemical healing, give it to a gold allomancer to fill all at once. Afterwards, the spike is removed and given to a patient, who taps just what they need, then taken back and given either to another patient or back to the allomancer, who fills and keeps it until needed again. That would allow the costs of the compounding to be shared among patients.

Though... having a doctor who might eventually develop homicidal tendencies could have its drawbacks.

the drawback with this mechanism is that once the patient is healed, he need time to refill the metalmind. so you can only heal a patient every few weeks with such a system. Hardly practical in a big hospital with dozens of people in risk of life every day. Not to mention the risk that the patient may steal the spike. Given the rarity of finding a bloodmaker willing to be spiked, and the fact that the spikes run out of power with time, I figure such spikes would be extremely rare. Somewhere in the order of one per million people.

While with the compunding you can heal a patient in a few minutes, so it can make a difference. It would burn away some gold, but I think it would still cost much less than all the medications and nurses and other stuff needed to heal people the old way.

Another thing to keep in mind with the medical stuff, is that there was a direct hint from Brandon in the MAG that metalminds can be created that anyone can tap. If Scadrians figure this process out (probably has something to do with identity) they could create goldminds for anyone in need of immediate medical care, like heart attack or stroke victims or mortally wounded cops. So spikes may not be necessary for this particular process. Although, I don't envy the guy whose job it is to store health constantly.

I do. He'd get paid plenty of money to do nothing but stay in bed all day. Even sick, he'd still be able to read or play videogames (no need to fill as hard as you can, you can fill a goldmind at a steady rate and still be fine enough to read), and if he wanted to do some more draining activity he could just stop filling for a while. It's a dream job!

Unless one takes it as a stakanovist. In which case, he would fill as much as he can as long as he can, making his every waking hour miserable. While if he takes his time filling the metalminds, he will know some people will probably die becuase he could not provide enough healing power... ok, so not 100% a dream job, but still good enough for me.

The drawback with this system is, once again, a matter of scale. wayne needed several days, even weeks worth of charging the metalminds to recover from something deadly. there aren't many bllodmakers, so even hiring most of them, you would probably not get enough healing for all who need. Hiring just one single gold compounder should solve any problem, though.

[Ursus]

-snip-

Wayne didn't compound. He had to take weeks to recover because he only had the feruchimal end of gold.

I'm assuming that our scenario of having gold compounded for medical purposes is more modern, and we'd have ability to breed gold twinborns or splice it into genes. (Here's another host of discussion topics...)

[Vortaan]

Wayne didn't compound. He had to take weeks to recover because he only had the feruchimal end of gold.

I'm assuming that our scenario of having gold compounded for medical purposes is more modern, and we'd have ability to breed gold twinborns or splice it into genes. (Here's another host of discussion topics...)

I doubt you'd be able to breed specific Allomantic or Feruchemical abilities, just the potential for such abilities. Unless they figure out some way to predict sDna... which would be an interesting moral point.

[happyman]

As a counter-argument to this: imagine a world where nothing could change, because everything was preserved. Nothing could die, no new things could be created (because this would require a change in the preserved order of things). Could Preservation, if left unopposed manage this? I suspect the answer is yes (as for if preservation WOULD, well that's a different discussion, and depends on your interpretation of the shardic intent).

A world in stasis, perfectly preserved, and perfectly stagnant.

I'm sure some creative minds could think up some doomsday scenarios for other 'benign' or 'altruistic' shards (such as Honor) as well.

Actually, this is a pretty good description of most of the Final Empire. That's probably not an accident.

Edit: OK, OK, it wasn't that extreme. Nevertheless, the final empire was a pretty good example of what happens when Preservation dominates over Ruin, locally. Preservation alone might be able to go further (Ruin still had some effects on the world), but I think it alone says that Preservation by itself is not enough.

Edited November 5, 2012 by happyman

[Vortaan]

Actually, this is a pretty good description of most of the Final Empire. That's probably not an accident.

Edit: OK, OK, it wasn't that extreme. Nevertheless, the final empire was a pretty good example of what happens when Preservation dominates over Ruin, locally. Preservation alone might be able to go further (Ruin still had some effects on the world), but I think it alone says that Preservation by itself is not enough.

The problem here is that if the Lord Ruler hadn't been influenced by Ruin so badly, the Final Empire would likely have been a lot more stable and secure society. Yes, no religious freedom more than likely, but the main horror of the Empire was the treatment of the skaa. If they were treated more as human beings and less like cattle, the Final Empire could possibly have been a very good and stable way of preventing Ruin's release.

[Allan53]

How is this not evil? I think most people would agree that the taking of one's life is evil.

I think the idea is that while hemalurgy itself is evil (tearing apart someones soul and killing them is pretty bad), the use of the spike afterwards is the morally neutral part. The deed is done, the evil is committed, the use of the spike is not inherently evil at that point. That said, hemalurgy I think comprises both those parts, so it's certainly arguable. I suspect he meant it's no more evil than Allomancy or Feruchemy, it's a tool. However, it's hard to imagine using it and not killing someone/shredding their soul, so who knows. Maybe if they consent?