Secret Ardent Man Posted April 11, 2015 Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 I have little basis for this post, but it is, after all, a theory. So bear with me. I postulate that the Heralds are the cause of the Desolations. Roshar believed that the Heralds always came back in time to fight and lead humanity against a Desolation, but what if that Vorin belief is only partially based in truth? What if the reason that the Heralds always showed up in the brink of time to lead humanity in the face of an oncoming Desolation is because they knew about its oncoming because they caused it? We know that Brandon is a fan of having his Shard-gods (like Preservation and Ruin) make deals with each other to preserve life on their respective planets. What if Honor and Odium struck a similar agreement? Odium is full of hate and wants to destroy anything that isn't as miserable as he is (since misery loves company), and he is incredibly powerful. He can eventually overcome Honor and Cultivation, so Honor devises a plan to extend the life of Roshar--he strikes a deal with Odium. The deal could conceivably have taken place like this: Honor can't stop Odium from destroying life on Roshar, but he can limit Odium's influence in some way. The key to Odium's getting full access to the planet: the Oathpact. Honor and Odium agree to a deal (much like Ruin and Preservation), where Odium is allowed to vent his hate on Roshar, subject to Honor's terms. This is where Honor's nature comes into play, as he asks for 10 volunteers to hold the key to Roshar's future in their hands. These 10 people will hold Odium's access to Roshar in their honor. Honor and the Heralds are honor-bound to conform to the terms of the deal and give Odium a chance to destroy Roshar, so the Heralds go to Odium's stronghold to be tortured until their honor breaks and they grant Odium access to Roshar. Odium, however, is bound by the agreement to return the Heralds to Roshar so that they can resist him. This is why the Heralds always arrived before the Desolations--they broke and granted Odium access to cause the Desolations! I propose that whenever one Herald broke, all 10 Heralds were sent back to Roshar. That would explain why Taln, known as Stonesinew and possessing (I infer) the strongest will of the Heralds, was able to resist allowing another Desolation for 4500 years until the book. Without the other Heralds to break first, Taln could resist the torture he was subjected to up to his natural breaking point. This could explain why he said that "I have failed," when he arrived in Kholinar--his will broke and he was returned to Roshar according to the terms of the Oathpact with Honor and Odium to resist the Desolation. This theory of the Heralds themselves allowing the Desolations, that their honor and will was all that stood between Odium and Roshar, and the as-of-yet unrevealed provisions of the Oathpact is an interesting one. I'd like to hear your thoughts. I didn't word this well at all. I'm tired. Sue me. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted April 11, 2015 Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 Well, for one we don't know that's actually Taln :3 He's definitely due to be on Roshar now that the Desolation has begun though. On the theory itself, I thought that actually was the prevalent theory, so I guess most people will agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Secret Ardent Man Posted April 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 Well, for one we don't know that's actually Taln :3 He's definitely due to be on Roshar now that the Desolation has begun though. On the theory itself, I thought that actually was the prevalent theory, so I guess most people will agree? Well, for one we don't know that's actually Taln :3 He's definitely due to be on Roshar now that the Desolation has begun though. On the theory itself, I thought that actually was the prevalent theory, so I guess most people will agree? Oh, I wasn't aware that was the main theory. I looked for a similar theory for a little bit and couldn't find it. Thanks for letting me know! Guess that means I came up with a good theory then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaellok Posted April 13, 2015 Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 Typing on my phone at work, but there's a few points that are related. First, there is a WoB (words of Brandon) that the oath pact does not include Odium, but is originally between the heralds and honor (my wording is not the same as his, and it is from memory.) Second, Brandon has all but confirmed that Desolations occur when a Herald "breaks" while in Braize. (We know a new Desolation occurs if they all stay behind for too long, and asking if the Heralds return to Roshar after breaking is on the right track.) The interactions between Shards should not be limited to just what we have seen from Preservation and Ruin... those two were literal direct opposites. They were also pleasant enough fellows to begin with (unlike Rayse/Odium, who was a right bastard.) Also, final quibbling point. Even if Desolation occurs because the Heralds break, that doesn't mean they are the cause. Odium is still the actor initiating them, and is the one responsible, and so is the cause. (Unless you think they would still exist without Odium, as long as the Heralds still lived.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsecaller3414 Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 Unless the Heralds got bored and decided to make mischief, like something my friends would do. Interesting points, though. I never thought about it like this before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.S.A.M.K.M Posted April 20, 2015 Report Share Posted April 20, 2015 What would happen if al ten heralds survived? would they need to return to the place of pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaellok Posted April 20, 2015 Report Share Posted April 20, 2015 What would happen if al ten heralds survived? would they need to return to the place of pain. Only if they wanted to prevent the Desolations from occurring non-stop! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted April 20, 2015 Report Share Posted April 20, 2015 What would happen if al ten heralds survived? would they need to return to the place of pain. Question that is more or less answered in the prologue alone :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsecaller3414 Posted April 20, 2015 Report Share Posted April 20, 2015 Yes, they would need to return, unless they broke their oaths like the nine did in the prologue. And yes, it does say there, so if you have further questions and have a copy of the book, you can look there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lirins hand Posted April 20, 2015 Report Share Posted April 20, 2015 Anyone think perhaps Taln being the only one to die wasn't an accident? Just re-read the prologue and I got the feeling that maybe the decision had been made earlier, not after the battle. It's a little convenient that all 9 of them came to the same conclusion at the same time. Wouldn't it have taken a little more discussion to convince all 9? Wouldn't even one other one of them have wanted to wait for Kalak? Jezrien seems to be waiting only because it's his duty, not because he wants to. The fact that they had to choose someone says something also. Are or were the 10 ever friends/comrades? Or has the cycle of desolations literally burned that out of them (if it was ever there)? What if the Heralds working for Honor was penitence? Not the way for 10 good people to save the world but for 10 bad people to repay a debt? Or to win something in the end - a sliver or the shard itself? Where does the idea that the Heralds were good come from? Is it just because ending the desolations is a good thing therefore they must be good? The fact that they break is also a cause of the desolations, so you could argue their "failure" actually is keeping Roshar in a perpetual bronze/iron age. Is there any WoB on the relative goodness of the Heralds? Or just our/in-book assumptions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaellok Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 @Lirins Hand, Some time ago, there was a rather lengthy forum discussion regarding whether the death of Taln was an accident, or murder. I cannot remember what it was titled, or who started it, sadly, tho. But you may want to doa more lengthy search, add there was a lot of discussion you may find interesting. Personally, i think it likely the Heralds are wouldn't hold back from fighting with all they have; during the desolation itself is presumably the only time they have that is free from torture. There is no reason to suggest that, were they to LOSE, they would avoid said torture. I would think it more likely they would be afraid that they would be immortal, and undergoing the pain and torment for all eternity and no hope of an end or break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zea mays Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 A question that occurs: what was the usual time interval between the arrival of the heralds and the advent of a desolation? I ask, because "Taln" thinks that he is late, and mentions another heralds teaching people metallurgy, etc. a new bronze age doesn't happen overnight, y'know. If Taln is late arriving, and the processes that started this desolation (Odium acting through intermediaries? One of the numerous secret societies?) began before he hopped over from torture-land to Roshar, than his 'breaking' is not the immediate cause. Or, he's not really Taln. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsecaller3414 Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Well, it isn't like the Desolations happened once every year or anything. I personally think that maybe they happened every hundred years or so, and that seems like a long time in between to us mortals, but it could be relatively short to the Heralds themselves. Also, I doubt that all the Heralds like each other, or have all been comrades in the past, partly because the spren that belong to each order don't seem to get along with each other unless it is direly necessary. Like Syl and Pattern, for instance. And Nale doesn't seem like the kind of person that Jezrien was, and conflicting personalities could get in the way of a camaraderie... is that the right word? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Isn't it already canon that Desolations start when Heralds leave Damnation/stay too long on Roshar or am I missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arook Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Each desolation tends to leave the world reset to basic with very little industry and knowledge being retained. But remember Taln is delirious this time he is probably saying things he has said before typically. We know that each desolation does not mean everything gets set back to stone age from Nohadon. he survived one and kept his kingdom from falling apart. Its clear that at least the last desolation even thought i think only 1 in 10 survived they were able to function still with the Radients helping they kept things going. But with out the Radients maybe only 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000 survived. But during the heraldic epochs most of the population lived in the stone age even with the Radients. As for the bronze well its fairly easy to work with unlike iron which typically needs to be twice as hot to smelt from ore. It takes a lot to get iron to the right temp safely. As for when desolation start heralds are released before a desolation I would guess years before to prepare the world how ever not this time. As for how long the heralds our on Roshar I don't think that really has anything to due with it. At least not that I have seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaellok Posted April 24, 2015 Report Share Posted April 24, 2015 A question that occurs: what was the usual time interval between the arrival of the heralds and the advent of a desolation? I ask, because "Taln" thinks that he is late, and mentions another heralds teaching people metallurgy, etc. a new bronze age doesn't happen overnight, y'know. If Taln is late arriving, and the processes that started this desolation (Odium acting through intermediaries? One of the numerous secret societies?) began before he hopped over from torture-land to Roshar, than his 'breaking' is not the immediate cause. Or, he's not really Taln. It's hard to walk down the street when you are injured and/or crazy. I imagine that you might make a few wrong turns when navigating between planets while in a similar condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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