Why People Are Chosen As Epics /Spoilers/

[TheSpartanDuck he/him]

Well, I was awake last night, thinking of my impending doom at the hands of an Epic that's powers are cereal based, when I started thinking, 'Hey, what makes an Epic an Epic, and what is it in their past that specifies their power portfolio? And how can I get potato powers to enslave the Irish?' Well I believe the answer is partially stated in the books, but certainly not outright stated.

•We have evidence to believe Calamity is an Epic, yet we have nearly no idea what his power portfolio is. There is the always the option that he is a high Gifter, but it's not certain yet.

•The Reckoners and Lorist have figured and speculated that something in an Epic's past is what creates there weakness, example; Sourcefield and KoolAid, poisoned as a child with KoolAid. Steelheart and Men Who Don't Fear Him, Steelheart was a school bully, yet it is unknown if someone who didn't fear him almost killed him.

•We can assume some near-death experiences happened to Nightweilder with sunlight, Megan with fire, and Newton with her faimly (she is weakened by compliments and afraid of not being as good as her faimly)

•From what is stated in the books, ONLY WEAKNESSES are specified by an Epic's past (or so from what we know)

My conclusion is that only an Epic's WEAKNESS is specified by their past, and their powers (from what we know and can theorize) are completely random.

P.s. They never did find out Regalia's power, yet when David killed her, he proved she was not a High Epic, she had no powerful protective powers. Prof's history and near death experience is unknown, only that he was a schoolteacher, dated Tia, and was friends with 3 other Epics, so we really can't determine what Prof's weakness is without knowing more of his history. (However there were small blurbs about how Prof disliked contest.)

~Stay Duckie My Friends!

Edited April 7, 2015 by TheSpartanDuck

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

I'd have to disagree that Epic powers are random; rather, I think they give Epics symbolic empowerment over their fears. For example, we have….

 

Steelheart: School bully, believed by some to have been nearly killed by a former victim who didn't fear him, creating that fear. His power portfolio makes him the biggest, strongest, most indestructible being in the city, if not the Fractured States. Who wouldn't fear a seven-foot man who could fly, lift cars, shoot energy beams from his hands, and walk through a hail of machine gunfire without so much as a scratch? 

 

Fortuity: Past largely unknown, but it created in him a deep-seated fear of rejection. Clairvoyant, able to dodge bullets with ease. If publicly rejected by a beautiful woman, who wouldn't wish they'd seen that coming, wish that they could've ducked it before it came? 

 

Firefight: Nearly died in a house fire as a child. Able to resurrect and reshape reality in small but effective ways. If caught in a fire, I'd find myself wishing I could change the situation somehow, or hoping I'd get out of it alive and unscathed. 

 

Newton: Feared disappointing her wealthy parents, a fear that seems to have been intensified when she was imprisoned for murder. Powers allow her to outrun threats and deflect things that might harm her. Anyone who has ever disappointed their parents, who has had to listen to them go on about what their actions mean and pile on the accusations ("You wanted to do this, didn't you? You wanted to make us feel this way! You wanted to destroy your future because you have some bizarre fear of success and if you let it go on….") has probably wished they could just run away, and in the meantime make it so their parents' comments don't hurt so much. 

 

Obliteration: Preacher before Calamity; judging by comments like "the seed of the Epic is in each one [of us]," it can be surmised that his fear had something to do with the darker nature of mankind. Powers allowed him to create explosions the size of nuclear blasts, go wherever he felt he needed to destroy, automatically dodge any threat to his life, burn down houses and people…in effect, his powers turned him into a destroying angel, complete with glowing skin whenever he is about to mete out "judgment." 

 

Sourcefield: Poisoned in a cult-like attempted murder as a child; feared cults as an outcome. Powers allowed her to dodge threats to her life, but also lent her a means to steal through the night and quietly eliminate anyone she saw as possessing cult-like tendencies. Dissolving into electricity and reappearing behind a cult leader would be an extremely effective means of eliminating said threat. 

 

Note that all Epic powers don't require the Epic to face their root fear. Just as the spyril allowed David to control water without ever facing his fear of it, none of these powers required the Epics to face their fears. Rather, they gave their owners a sort of artificial empowerment—a bandaid on a gunshot wound, if you will. 

Edited April 7, 2015 by TwiLyghtSansSparkles

[TheSpartanDuck he/him]

Gr8 M8. Kill my vibe. Jk. I do see your point, however your idea is kinda from a first person POV. I do agree though. Your ideas make a lot of sense, and their weaknesses do support the idea that their powers originate from their fear. It just kinda seems... IDK I know you're right, but my spleen is like 'BRUH! DUN TRUST THA FOOL M8!' But then again my spleen did tell me to pour water on that oil fire...... I really need to get that checked out don't I?

[Edgedancer he/him]

Not to keep ruining your parade but as far as we know, contrary to what you imply, a near death experience isn't needed. Looking at the origins of fears we know Steelheart, Fortuity, Mitosis and Newton don't seem to have a near death experience connect to turning into an Epic.

Naturally, something traumatic like that is likely to cause a fear that Calamity might work with, but that doesn't mean it is needed.

[king of nowhere]

a possible interpretation, however some of those explanations were quite far-fetched. If one tries hard enough, he can always find a correlation between the powers and the fear, but that doesn't mean the correlation is real. the correlation between fear and weakness is, instead, much more direct. Too bad we never knew what regalia's weakness was.

 

Also, is there an official definition of "high epic"? Because it is often meant as "one possessing a prime invincibility", but the blurb for firefight said "they told him it could not be done, that no one ever killed a high epic", which is clearly false, because the reckoners had killed epics with prime invincibilities several times. So the actuall meaning of "high epic" is undefined.

[TheSpartanDuck he/him]

King! THATS EXACTLY WHAT MY SLPEEN WAS TELLING ME! I couldn't have explained it be- *Muffled Cries*

ThIS is tHe dUck'S sPleeN. if U wAnt hIM baCk, fEed mE thAT mINerAl.

[TheSpartanDuck he/him]

Not true King Of Nowhere, because as Prof had clarified in Steelheart, they HADNT ever taken out High Epics. High epics abilities of protection isn't just prime invincibility in the definition like Obleteration teleports, because he melts bullets. Steelheart himself, however, was invincible because bullets bounced off of him/ he was impenetrable. However this theory is slightly undermined by Newton, a smaller Epic who had prime invincibility because NOTHING could hit her. So I guess it's just what you consider Prime Invincibility. I whole heartedly thought Newton should've been considered a High Epic, and easily could've killed Regalia, and with more of a struggle, Obliteration. And also, Hiw stupid are Newton's gang members to not put 2 and 2 together? 'DONT COMPLIMENT NEWTON OR SHE'LL KILL YOU BRU. INSULT THE CRAP OUT OF HER M8.' these guys were freaking idiots.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

a possible interpretation, however some of those explanations were quite far-fetched. If one tries hard enough, he can always find a correlation between the powers and the fear, but that doesn't mean the correlation is real. the correlation between fear and weakness is, instead, much more direct. Too bad we never knew what regalia's weakness was.

True, but the whole idea with the symbolic empowerment theory is that the connection isn't supposed to be crystal clear. If true, the lack of a clear correlation would provide another layer of protection between the Epic and their weakness: By making it symbolic, and therefore somewhat unclear, those attempting to access the Epic's fear are unable to determine it easily. Besides, if Calamity gave Epics crystal clear and thematic empowerment over their fears, anyone could guess an Epic's weakness by looking at their powerset. Which wouldn't be an effective means of empowerment at all.

[TheSpartanDuck he/him]

I suppose you're correct, however, could it be assumed that David guessed Newton's weakness ( yes! because he said, as he was pinned down, 'It was long shot, but the only shot I had.' And then used his idea of her weakness in her) just by a VERY small amount of her history, and her powerset?

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

I suppose you're correct, however, could it be assumed that David guessed Newton's weakness ( yes! because he said, as he was pinned down, 'It was long shot, but the only shot I had.' And then used his idea of her weakness in her) just by a VERY small amount of her history, and her powerset?

I doubt he used her powerset as a point of reference. He probably just went off of the fact her gang is always insulting her, while Regalia and Obliteration compliment her.

[TheSpartanDuck he/him]

Wait, when did they compliment her? And what kinda idiot tells Epics that are more powerful than her her weakness.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

Wait, when did they compliment her? And what kinda idiot tells Epics that are more powerful than her her weakness.

I don't have the book on me, so I can't give you any specific examples, but I think I remember David mentioning it when he complimented her. And she probably told them her weakness because they were more powerful and demanded it as a means to control her. She probably had no choice.

[TheSpartanDuck he/him]

Hm. I can look at it when I get home.

[Voidus]

a possible interpretation, however some of those explanations were quite far-fetched. If one tries hard enough, he can always find a correlation between the powers and the fear, but that doesn't mean the correlation is real. the correlation between fear and weakness is, instead, much more direct. Too bad we never knew what regalia's weakness was.

 

Also, is there an official definition of "high epic"? Because it is often meant as "one possessing a prime invincibility", but the blurb for firefight said "they told him it could not be done, that no one ever killed a high epic", which is clearly false, because the reckoners had killed epics with prime invincibilities several times. So the actuall meaning of "high epic" is undefined.

In fact David specifies that they always pick someone with a PI, personally I wouldn't take a blurb to be all that canonical, they're meant to sell the book, not provide accurate exposition.

[natc]

David generally uses the term incorrectly himself anyway. As do a lot of people, considering the scene where he actually corrects himself.

[TheSpartanDuck he/him]

Well, then we really need to specify a true definition of PI, because it IS incorrectly used quite a bit.

[Voidus]

Well, then we really need to specify a true definition of PI, because it IS incorrectly used quite a bit.

PI isn't used incorrectly at all to my knowledge, it's the term 'High Epic' that keeps getting used to mean different things.

[TheSpartanDuck he/him]

I'm talking in the discussion pages it's incorrectly used, along with High Epic.

[name_here]

I think a Prime Invincibility is a defensive power that can't be defeated just by bringing more raw firepower. Intangibility, immunity to all harm, precognition that activates far enough in advance it can't be overcome with a really big bomb, reincarnation, etc.

[TheSpartanDuck he/him]

Well, not necessarily, because El Brass Bullish Dude was considered to have PI, because even high caliber bullets just bounced off of him, yet it took a morter to kill him. It was considered invincibility, yet he was killed by, as you put it, more raw firepower. #HeadCannon

[Edgedancer he/him]

Well, not necessarily, because El Brass Bullish Dude was considered to have PI, because even high caliber bullets just bounced off of him, yet it took a morter to kill him. It was considered invincibility, yet he was killed by, as you put it, more raw firepower. #HeadCannon

Do you mean Puño de Fuego? Because for one I don't think we ever got El Brass Bullish Dude's powers and more importantly Puño de Fuego was not a High Epic, which means no PI.

 

name_here's definition is mostly correct. It means ordinary means of assassination (guns, sniper, explosives) don't work but not necessarily that an Epic is downright invincible. For example Fortuity could be checkmated and Newton presumably drowned.

What doesn't help this whole discussion is that even in universe not everyone agress if a border case, like Regalia and her astral projection, fits the definition of High Epic.

[TheSpartanDuck he/him]

Well, Regalia COULD be considered a High Epic, but again, most High Epics have PI, and David thus proved (according to this theory) that Regalia was indeed NOT a High Epic, when he killed her using Obliteration's Sword. Or perhaps she was to weak to use her powers. If we knew Regalia's weakness and possibly even her history, we might be able to compare and contrast with other Epics to decide weather or not Regalia could be considered a High Epic, and furthermore, a better Definition of High Epic and PI.

And no I meant El Brass Bullish Dude. That Epic that the Reckoner Cell rooted in Bablar had killed in Mexico the year before. David gave a quick overview of his powers and the story Val told also gave more insight to his powers.

[natc]

Well, Regalia COULD be considered a High Epic, but again, most High Epics have PI, and David thus proved (according to this theory) that Regalia was indeed NOT a High Epic, when he killed her using Obliteration's Sword. Or perhaps she was to weak to use her powers. If we knew Regalia's weakness and possibly even her history, we might be able to compare and contrast with other Epics to decide weather or not Regalia could be considered a High Epic, and furthermore, a better Definition of High Epic and PI.

And no I meant El Brass Bullish Dude. That Epic that the Reckoner Cell rooted in Bablar had killed in Mexico the year before. David gave a quick overview of his powers and the story Val told also gave more insight to his powers.

Tia literally described Regalia as "not a High Epic" and David agrees on the spot and catches his erroneous thinking.

[Voidus]

Tia literally described Regalia as "not a High Epic" and David agrees on the spot and catches his erroneous thinking.

But the reason they give isn't consistent with David's definitions from Steelheart and I believe we have WoB that some people in universe could consider her to be a high Epic by virtue of her projections since it certainly makes it difficult to kill her conventionally although David and Tia don't.

[Edgedancer he/him]

And no I meant El Brass Bullish Dude. That Epic that the Reckoner Cell rooted in Bablar had killed in Mexico the year before. David gave a quick overview of his powers and the story Val told also gave more insight to his powers.

In that case you're wrong. The Epic with that power set they talked about in Firefight is Puño de Fuego and they called him not a High Epic. El Brass Bullish Dude was mentioned in Steelheart chapter 33 as an example how stupid some Epic names are together with Insulation and the Pink Pinkness.

 

But the reason they give isn't consistent with David's definitions from Steelheart and I believe we have WoB that some people in universe could consider her to be a high Epic by virtue of her projections since it certainly makes it difficult to kill her conventionally although David and Tia don't.

Here's the WOB you mean, from the recent AMA.

 

Prime invincibility is the cream of the crop of High Epic, in David's estimation. The hardest of the hard to kill. However, other people define things differently. "High epic" means "I have a power that, if you stand there and try to shoot me, it doesn't work." That's why in his definition, Regalia doesn't fit the bill--though many others would say her power of keeping herself hidden as she does would totally count. All a matter of semantics, but to him, there's a specific gradation.

So while David still uses the term inconsistently, this means there isn't a clear cut answer for some cases like Regalia in universe but the actual firepower of said Epic doesn't matter for any definition we know of the term High Epic.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Edgedancer