Moash's Character

[aczh1]

Just did a reread of WOR. I focused on Moash because I was dumbfounded by his actions at the end of WOR, where he almost kills Kaladin to exact revenge on Elkohar. Actually, he didn't even need to kill Kaladin. Killing Kaladin only makes the job "cleaner".

 

I thought Moash's actions at the end of WOR were out of character. I believed the only explanation for his actions was that he was being guided by an outside force. Perhaps Odium was controlling him (similar to how Vin was being influenced by Ruin). 

 

As I worked through my reread, I realized that Sanderson set him up to be a villian. Nearly everything Moash says is petty/spiteful. He lusts after Shardblade and Shardplate (presumably to help him exact revenge on Elkohar). He's hypocritical. Here's a few passages if you aren't convinced:

 

“I’d join them in a heartbeat,” Moash said, walking up
behind. He folded his arms across his lean, well-muscled chest.
“If I were in charge, things would change. The lighteyes would
work the mines and the fields. They would run bridges and
die by Parshendi arrows.”

“Sounds fair,” Moash said, walking over to join Sigzil
beneath the overhang. “Better than deciding who rules based
on eye color.”

(Second statement contradicts the first)

 

 

 

Moash stopped a few feet from Kaladin, just out of easy
striking range with the spear. “What are you going to do, Kal?”
Moash demanded, looking at the spear pointed toward him.
“Would you really attack a member of Bridge Four?”

(He contradicts this multiple times)

 

 

 

“He’s probably some kind of brightlord in his country,”
Moash said. “The way he talks. Wonder how he ended up
with us cremlings.”

(This is just bad)

 

It's interesting how Sanderson was able to blind (at least me) to Moash's character simply by making Kaladin emphasize with Moash's state.

 

I still have hope for Moash. People have hypothesized that Moash might be Odium's champion - I think that's not likely. He clearly regrets his actions. I strongly feel that he will redeem himself in the next few books.

 

Thoughts?

Edited March 25, 2015 by aczh1

[Kurkistan he/him]

I'll say I pretty much saw it coming with Moash. Lots of his lines I was like "this man is a bad influence, please make him stop talking to Kaladin."

[Aleksiel]

I didn't think he was out of character. Even after WoK I was skeptical about him. He was the last to accept Kaladin or even act decent, he spoke against lighteyes with lots of anger and hatred that I didn't feel form any other bridgeman. He gladly seizes every opportunity that would give him the edge to be a better warrior for selfish reasons. He doubted Dalinar and didn't want them to stay in his camp at first.

 

Moash never tried to get more information on what happened to his grand-parents. He had judged Elhokar guilty and sentenced him to death without a second thought. He's been trying to get revenge for years, that was the reason he signed in the army. He was lost in the darkness Syl wished Kal to avoid when thinking about Amaram.

 

Kaladin isn't Moashe's life-long best brother-like buddy. Moash went against his orders when it came to the patriots and he had been bloodthirsty for years. I'm uncertain if he would have killed Kaladin, though.

[Mckeedee123 he/him]

While I've never read WoK Prime, I'm pretty sure Moash is based off of Merin.

[AerionBFII he/him]

I think he was influenced.... the end scene where he was in the carriage he seemed as baffled as i was about his actions.

 

But whoever smelt it dealt it. He needs to come to terms with what he did and needs to grovel back in Bridge 4's good graces......

but he wont and now Mr.T has a new Shardbearer to add to his arsenal.

[aeromancer he/him]

There is a possibility that Odium possessed him. However Moash is consumed with rage at his grandparents death. In addition, Graves is certainly not helping. The fact that he's technically a lighteyes is probrably driving him phsycotic.

[Curious Anamaximder he/him]

Moash was plain evil from the start. I hope he dies. .

Not! I love Moash. He is a evil realist. So simple.

[hoser he/him]

I love Moash. 

Sure, the evil thing.  I'll grant you that. 

But there is so much Brandon can do with him.  I love the range of potential. 

He is the best bridgeman fighter, and clearly driven by hatred.  This suggests Odious investment. 

He acted to gain revenge independently, then against Kaladin's express orders.  We can give him treacherous and insubordinate. 

He saved Kaladin's life and they still seem to care about each other at the end. 

The potential directions:

• Odious minion or champion:possibly betraying Kaladin again. 
• Odious agent who shows mercy to Kaladin at a key juncture.
• Redeemed by Kaladin's growing leadership skills, he betrays either Odium or Mr. T..  Maybe both.

Sure.  Hate him.  He deserves it.  But love what Brandon will do with him!

[Kurkistan he/him]

...

He is the best bridgeman fighter, and clearly driven by hatred.  This suggests Odious investment. 

...

I will quote a gentleman and scholar (a handsome devil, too) from long ago:

I can't say I'm on board with all this talk of this or that being "of Odium" or "touched by Odium" or the like. Human nature can count for quite a lot.

Tangent: I keep thinking of that scene in The Mummy Returns "He ain't happy without a good curse. 'This is cursed. That is cursed.'"

Granted, it turns out that the Thrill is sourced at Odium through the Unmade and Shallan's father is being affected by something... and so on, but still.

 

I'll stand firm in my perhaps hopeless hope that there's some stuff that people do that isn't tied directly to the KR or a shard.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Kurkistan

[hoser he/him]

Hi Kurk, nice to see one of your comments.  Seems like it's been a while.  But you must have been busy.  Tarachin superstar, you say.  You're right, of course.

I will quote a gentleman and scholar (a handsome devil, too) from long ago:

Granted, it turns out that the Thrill is sourced at Odium through the Unmade and Shallan's father is being affected by something... and so on, but still.

 

I'll stand firm in my perhaps hopeless hope that there's some stuff that people do that isn't tied directly to the KR or a shard.

You will note that I equivocate with "suggests".  I think one can be forgiven the smelling of rats where hatred is concerned on a world under the influence of "Odium". 

This is partly the story of magic and the Shards.  If magic or Shardic influence weren't prevalent or powerful, how could it work?  Clearly Brandon wants a story with magic in it.  People's personalities figure in, but magic is relevent too. 

When the magic tends to seek out exceptional individuals, it gets even harder to find the exceptional mundane.  Let's say Kaladin's need to protect had a mundane genesis.  ... profit! 

Renarin's base disease and Kaladin's depression aren't necessarily Shardic in origin, so that leaves you room for hope.  Still, if Odium has a chance to influence Moash or Hobber, who do you think he will choose?

[Kurkistan he/him]

I'm mostly lurking and ninja-posting WoBs these days: not much to draw my avid interest otherwise. And it turns out that being gainfully employed cuts down on forum-surfing time. Who knew.

 

Don't worry, once Weiry gets the Chicago stuff into the Theoryland (so I can link to it all nice and proper like) at the very least I'll post some more mad-conspiracy-theory time bubble stuff.

 

---

 

RE: Odiousness

 

I take your point, it's just... Meh. I've always found "'twas the magic that made him so" revelations to be annoying, to be honest. I loathed the plot twist in the Tawny Man trilogy, for instance. Yes yes I'm sure anything Brandon does will do a good job of it, but I've got some baggage to get over on this end. 

 

Plus I really do always think of that scene whenever I read suggestions about people being influence by Odium.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Kurkistan

[.S.A.M.K.M]

 I wonder if he might go after Roshane himself, now he is no longer with the army. If he cant kill the king, he can at least get the guy who told the king to put his grandparents in Jail. Do we think stormblessed would even try to protect the guy who sent his little brother to die?

[hoser he/him]

So wait, let me get this straight. 

I'm mostly lurking and ninja-posting WoBs these days: not much to draw my avid interest otherwise. And it turns out that being gainfully employed cuts down on forum-surfing time. Who knew.

 

Don't worry, once Weiry gets the Chicago stuff into the Theoryland (so I can link to it all nice and proper like) at the very least I'll post some more mad-conspiracy-theory time bubble stuff.

 

---

 

RE: Odiousness

 

I take your point, it's just... Meh. I've always found "'twas the magic that made him so" revelations to be annoying, to be honest. I loathed the plot twist in the Tawny Man trilogy, for instance. Yes yes I'm sure anything Brandon does will do a good job of it, but I've got some baggage to get over on this end. 

 

Plus I really do always think of that scene whenever I read suggestions about people being influence by Odium.

You are reading fantasy and unhappy with all the darn magic.  But you want to take the magic and make machines with it.  So you're okay with the magic when you can turn it into science?  You do know that there are regular novels that don't have magic in them. 

 

Is Moogle the guy who wants the heroes to not be helpful, while the corrupt, evil pond scum like Sadeas and Taravangian save the day?  I think you are both fighting the genre that you chose, but with Brandon's plot twists, he might have a better chance. 

 

Moash has obviously evil intent, but he hasn't actually done any harm yet.  I'm interested in what Brandon does with him. 

[natc]

I wonder if he might go after Roshane himself, now he is no longer with the army. If he cant kill the king, he can at least get the guy who told the king to put his grandparents in Jail. Do we think stormblessed would even try to protect the guy who sent his little brother to die?

It's that or lose his powers and kill Syl again, so. Yeah he probably would.

[dvoraen]

I'm mostly lurking and ninja-posting WoBs these days: not much to draw my avid interest otherwise. And it turns out that being gainfully employed cuts down on forum-surfing time. Who knew.

 

Don't worry, once Weiry gets the Chicago stuff into the Theoryland (so I can link to it all nice and proper like) at the very least I'll post some more mad-conspiracy-theory time bubble stuff.

 

---

 

RE: Odiousness

 

I take your point, it's just... Meh. I've always found "'twas the magic that made him so" revelations to be annoying, to be honest. I loathed the plot twist in the Tawny Man trilogy, for instance. Yes yes I'm sure anything Brandon does will do a good job of it, but I've got some baggage to get over on this end. 

 

Plus I really do always think of that scene whenever I read suggestions about people being influence by Odium.

So is this where I try, to a likely low degree of success, to convince you that being conditioned to think a way doesn't count as "the magic making you this way"?  (I'm implying this is what was going on with Shallan's father.  He was being nudged by the Unmade until he no longer needed the prompting to be a murderous bastard.  The part I don't get is whether he really drew their eyes to him or if it's more a symptom of the closest Unmade's influence, which I still contend was Nergaoul acting upon him the entire time.)

Edited April 10, 2015 by dvoraen

[Moogle]

Is Moogle the guy who wants the heroes to not be helpful, while the corrupt, evil pond scum like Sadeas and Taravangian save the day?  I think you are both fighting the genre that you chose, but with Brandon's plot twists, he might have a better chance. 

 

I am wounded by the suggestion that I find Sadeas and Amaram anything but terrible human beings and painfully uninteresting characters. Sadeas' sudden removal from the story was one of the highlights of WoR for me. I only hope Amaram meets the same fate on the first page of SA3.

 

Taravangian I do find to be the most sympathetic character in the series. I have high hopes for his salvation of mankind. I'll give you that. I'll agree that this is probably not the genre to expect that to happen in, but Brandon's always loved playing with the morally grey conquerer types (hi there TLR and Elend!). There's a decent chance he'll be involved in saving the day.

 

@Kurk:

I totally understand that feeling! I do think there's hope, though. I felt like I was fighting a hopeless war trying to say "well, Kaladin probably just has seasonal affective disorder" in response to the threads discussing why he got depressed during Weepings (wherein every magical explanation possible was theorized wildly), but was vindicated by WoB a while back.

 

Actually on-topic:

I found Moash's willingness to harm Kaladin in order to get his revenge just a little over the top. I don't think it's because of Odium's influence (at least beyond the fact that humans most likely have some Odium in them/the Thrill affected Moash), I think that Moash just wanted revenge a lot more than he ever showed and Brandon probably could have shown that a bit more. I find his desire for vengeance to be perfectly reasonable, but his harming of Kaladin to be questionable at best.

 

I completely get why people think it's out of character and look for alternative explanations, but I am loathe to go to magical explanations when the mundane is as likely.

 

Moash is one of the best villains of SA, and I see a lot of nice potential for any future plot he's involved in. I hope to see more of my Moashiekuns.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Moogle

[Kurkistan he/him]

So wait, let me get this straight. 

You are reading fantasy and unhappy with all the darn magic.  But you want to take the magic and make machines with it.  So you're okay with the magic when you can turn it into science?  You do know that there are regular novels that don't have magic in them. 

 

It's more of a personal preference than an argumentative stance, so I'm not trying to win you over on it. It just seems to me that that kind of things stops character actions and developments from being internally consistent, making them some 11th hour "oh btw he was being affected by X the whole time, or he would have behaved entirely differently." Now I say this and am likely being inconsistent/hypocritical because

 

Mistborn Spoilers

I didn't really have any problem with Ruin influencing Vin.

 

I did not, however, like the revelation that Zane was subtly emotionally-allomancing Vin throughout WoA; I acknowledge that it was clever, and interesting to see the second time around reading back through the book looking for the emotional spikes, but it seemed to cheapen the characterization a bit.

 

Aside: and it's always bothered me that Zane would even try/succeed at this, with Vin never Bronze-sensing it. First Zane would have to figure out that Vin wasn't just going to burning copper all the time like normal mistborn do—fine, I can buy that. Say he bronze-sensed her burning bronze all the time and just came to the conclusion that she usually doesn't burn copper. Moving on—then we have to have it such that a Vin who's been sensing stuff through copperclouds throughout the book is suddenly either not burning bronze during any of her encounters with Zane (and also at this point Vin isn't burning copper whenever her bronze is off, for some reason) or just doesn't notice that this guy is constantly burning zinc and brass at her. </aside>

 

And as I type I've been thinking up counter-examples where I didn't mind this kind of background mental manipulation. I guess I'm just a contrary fellow. Welcome to the twisted and inconsistent world that is my mind when I'm thinking about actual story elements rather than mechanics.

 

So is this where I try, to a likely low degree of success, to convince you that being conditioned to think a way doesn't count as "the magic making you this way"?  (I'm implying this is what was going on with Shallan's father.  He was being nudged by the Unmade until he no longer needed the prompting to be a murderous bastard.  The part I don't get is whether he really drew their eyes to him or if it's more a symptom of the closest Unmade's influence, which I still contend was Nergaoul acting upon him the entire time.)

 

I could see such an argument potentially swaying me; no need to go to the trouble of making it though, as the suggestion alone is enough to consider for now.

 

@Moogle

 

Yeah, I remember the Weeping-depression discussions.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Kurkistan

[hoser he/him]

@kurk:  On magic vs humanity, I guess I just have trouble imagining a better way for it to work. The heroes have strengths and foibles.  The Shards act through people to an extent.  If they have any influence, it will reduce internal consistency.  So it seems that there should be some influence and the characters have choice about whether to accept it.  We see Kaladin failing and then succeeding, still depressed, but evolving to fit the Shardic intent and tapping into the power. 

With Kaladin, Dalinar, Shallan's father, Moash (see:on-topic) and Adolin, the strengths line up with the Shard and I accept the magical influence.  The ones that I am really curious about are the ones where there is somewhat of a fit between the Shard and the person, but ineptitude produces ineffectiveness.  What is up with Elhokar?  And what about Balat and his liking the suffering of animals? 

I am wounded by the suggestion that I find Sadeas and Amaram anything but terrible human beings and painfully uninteresting characters. Sadeas' sudden removal from the story was one of the highlights of WoR for me. I only hope Amaram meets the same fate on the first page of SA3.

 

Taravangian I do find to be the most sympathetic character in the series. I have high hopes for his salvation of mankind. I'll give you that. I'll agree that this is probably not the genre to expect that to happen in, but Brandon's always loved playing with the morally grey conquerer types (hi there TLR and Elend!). There's a decent chance he'll be involved in saving the day.

 

...

 

Actually on-topic:

I found Moash's willingness to harm Kaladin in order to get his revenge just a little over the top. I don't think it's because of Odium's influence (at least beyond the fact that humans most likely have some Odium in them/the Thrill affected Moash), I think that Moash just wanted revenge a lot more than he ever showed and Brandon probably could have shown that a bit more. I find his desire for vengeance to be perfectly reasonable, but his harming of Kaladin to be questionable at best.

 

I completely get why people think it's out of character and look for alternative explanations, but I am loathe to go to magical explanations when the mundane is as likely.

 

Moash is one of the best villains of SA, and I see a lot of nice potential for any future plot he's involved in. I hope to see more of my Moashiekuns.

@Moogle - I must have communicated poorly.  I understand that you grew to despise Amaram and Sadeas.   I was more commenting on your initial attraction.  After arguing with you on a number of points, you wrote the following, and I think I get where you are coming from. 

 

It's hard to say, though. I'm biased against Amaram, since I thought he'd be an interesting morally grey villain... turns out nope, he's literally trying to bring an apocalypse to Roshar because he's a religious fanatic. I felt really betrayed by WoR when we got some PoVs from Amaram, given that I had previously tried to (sort of) defend him and say "hey, maybe he has really good reasons for what he's doing". He's been relegated to the pile of boring villains I just want to never be mentioned again, the only other member of the pile being Sadeas. (Fortunately, Sadeas got knocked off without much ceremony. I wish it had happened earlier.)

You want these guys to be that morally grey villain (villain/hero?) who will actually be at least partly right and vital, so Sadeas, Mr. T and Amaram held some initial attraction.  Ultimately, Sadeas and Amaram didn't fit, but I was trying to reference the trope you are looking for.  

 

I think Moash does still have potential to fit the pattern, but he could also let you down. 

 

Ultimately, I don't see an either/or.  There is always a personal influence as with Moash's initial hatred.  There can also be a magical influence.  With magical influence will come more power.  I suspect magical influence on Moash, but am not certain. 

[Zea mays]

My pet suspicion is that Odium has some influence on persons who have bonded dead spren shardblades, and that influence increases as the everstorm approaches.

[.S.A.M.K.M]

 While moash is a bad guy now, i hope he does take out roshane, so kaladin is kept clean, yet some time in the future, he acts in a wway to gain some kind of redemption in the future. With his hate for light eyes, i can see him being sent to eliminate troublesome light eyes, at first avoiding lighteyes close to dalinar or kaladin, so not face any bridge 4 men, but in the future, once he has fallen enough, he would be more willing or forced to do so.

[Guest]

My pet suspicion is that Odium has some influence on persons who have bonded dead spren shardblades, and that influence increases as the everstorm approaches.

 

Moash was trying to have Elhokar assassinate long before he was granted a dead shardblade... It can't be it. Besides, on the matter of wielders of dead-Blades falling to Odium's influence, the pattern does not work with our other example, Adolin. Brandon recently confirmed he was not under the influence of Odium.

[Zea mays]

Moash wanted the King dead for a long time. When did hurting (killing!) Kal in the process become acceptable? Adolin, Dalinar (Aladar, etc) have been bonded to a blade a loooong time. Moash only recently acquired his. The previously mentioned three have intensly questioned their moral stance. Moash has not ( despite Kal's influence). In fact (damnation the patenthesis) Moash (uniquely amongst bridge four) has shown extreme resistence to Kal's influence. He is the kind of person more succeptible to Odium. And Odium's influence (I belive) has been gradually increasing, with the advent of the desolation.

Good fantasy/sci-fi (such as Robin Hobb's Elderling-verse books) uses "magic" to expound about the human condition, not to short change or over-write it. A man obsessed with revenge is so much more suceptible to HATE than a man re-evaluating his whole moral compass. Notice how Kal is always questioning his own motivation for his actions. This is partly a symptom of his depression - always doubting and second-guessing himself, but it also demonstrates a well developed conscience.

Ek, I hope my inane rambling make some sort of sense for somebody. I can never express myself properly.

[Elsecaller3414 she/her]

Unfortunately, the lust for revenge often consumes reason.  Moash is consumed by vengeful thinking and grief over his grandparents, plotting against the one who he believes ordered their death.  His devotion to his task kind of scares me.  Kaladin shows some signs of the same vengeful thoughts, but overcame them.  He goes on to save Elhokar, so maybe Moash can overcome his thoughts and grow up.  If he does, he will likely become a better person.

[.S.A.M.K.M]

 I wonder if he will discover that the people who he now works for, influenced the situation in which his parents died.

[Zea mays]

Are you suggesting that Roshone was/is working for the diagram? I would like it, except, Moash's backstory and Roshone's exile to Hearthstone happened before Gavilar died. Have we found out when the diagram plan was founded?