My Idea on why the Parshendi killed Gavilar

[Lightflame]

Sitting in a car for about two hours waiting for my mom to finish shopping has its benefits. Said benefits being that the book I chose to bring was The Way of Kings.

As I always do, I apologize in advance if someone has already made this theory. The thing is, I think this one is right. (Everybody does with their theories, but you know...) This theory needs other theories for it to work, so please bear with me as I lead up to it. If you don't feel like reading all this, there's a "too long; didn't read" version after the theory.

The Way of Kings, Chapter 71, Page 976 (Hardcover Edition):

"We do not know why some speak when others do not," Taravangian said. "But the dying see something. It began seven years ago, about the time when King Gavilar was investigating the Shattered Plains for the first time."

The dying visions started happening about the same time that Gavilar discovered the Parshendi. I find that extremely significant. Dalinar has visions as well, and he supposedly yells out strange things when he has them. Dalinar's visions are brought on by Highstorms, while these visions come from death. Could there be a connection? I'd like to propose that the visions started appearing when Honor died. This would mean that Honor died seven years before the story began. Soon afterwards, King Gavilar heads out to the Shattered Plains and discovers the Parshendi, Parshmen unlike anything Roshar had seen before. See where I'm going with this? It's a theory many before me have come up with.

Seven years ago, Odium killed Honor's Shardholder Tanvast (spelling?) and the visions began. To make sure that no-one would be able to take up the Honor Shard again, Odium splintered it. The Parshendi are the splinters of Honor. It makes sense. The Parshendi having seemingly endless numbers, act strangely honourable in battle, and weren't discovered until the time when Honor's Splintering is hinted to have happened. Jasnah wonders what "activated" the Parshmen to turn them into Parshendi. If they are in fact Honor's Splinters, then the Honor Shard "activated" a random group of Parshmen in the Shattered Plains, and could also activate Parshmen in other parts of the world.

As well, consider this quote:

The Way of Kings, Chapter 68, Page 938 (Hardcover Edition):

Why didn't the Shardbearer just finish him off? The Parshendi giant leaned down, then spoke. The words were thick with accent, and Dalinar's mind nearly dismissed them. But here, up close, Dalinar realized something. He understood what was being said. The accent was nearly impenetrable, but the words were in Alethi.

"It is you," the Parshendi Shardbearer said. "I have found you at last."

The Parshendi Shardbearer's identity is a topic that has several theories made about it (I know Gavilar has been guessed. I wonder if there are any theories that it's Nohadon?), but what if they know Dalinar for a different reason? Honor chose Dalinar to receive the visions, so this Shardbearer could know Dalinar because he is the one chosen by Honor. (This leads into "Kaladin is Odium's champion because of his hatred", but let's leave that for a different time.) It makes sense, while allowing theories on this character's identity to continue.

If I'm doing my job correctly, then by now your mind should be open to the possibility of the Parshendi being Honor Splinters instead of being Voidbringers. (Or "as well as being Voidbringers", but I'm not sure if even Brandon could pull off a twist like that.) That would be good, because my theory hinges on that theory. Now, onto why the Parshendi killed Gavilar.

We already know a few things about the situation. The Parshendi hired an assassin to kill Gavilar, told him to be as showy as possible, then took credit for the assassination after the fact. In a Dalinar chapter (I forget where, since I was just flipping through the book, but I think it's one of his very early chapters.), someone even mentioned that the Parshendi seemed like they had been preparing for the war which would come when they killed Gavilar. The Parshendi didn't seem to care about Gavilar's Evil Glowy Rock of Doom, so that couldn't have been what they were after.

Instead, it seems like they wanted to start a war. Honor's mantra throughout the book is, "Unite them." I believe that Honor's will for the Highprinces/people of Roshar was carried on within the Parshendi. They killed Gavilar and took credit for it so that the Vengeance Pact would be created, and the Highprinces would come together to fight them. Honor had some capacity for seeing the future, so they could have been able to see that the Vengeance Pact would come about from their actions. If not, then their time with Gavilar might have allowed them to guess what would happen. Also, the back of the book mentions that "Victory makes men lax" or something. The war could serve the purpose of putting them back into shape.

Of course, considering the interactions between the Highprinces, they either failed horribly, or this is all part of an even bigger gambit by someone.

So what do you think of this? Agree? Disagree? Has it already been guessed? Please tell me in your reply.

[Vortaan]

Well, I'll give it a thumbs up for gumption. I don't think I've ever heard this theory before. That said, there's a couple of things I think are wrong with this theory.

1) The timing of Tanavast's death seems more than a little off. The last vision he shows Dalinar that shows a historical event is set at the time of the Recreance. That would mean, to me, that Tanavast was probably killed and Honor splintered somewhere around that time frame. The other theory, I guess, would be that nothing of importance to Dalinar's current predicament occurred between the Recreance and modern times, which seems kind of implausible.

2) Shards require someone to hold them to have more than a "weak will" as Sazed put it. It stretches what little we know of Shardic theory for me to believe that Odium could splinter Honor into a nation of corporeal, sentient beings with a culture and biology able to interact with Roshar.

3) The visions are not targeted to Dalinar. This is made pretty clear when Tanavast says "I don't know who you are". If Tanavast chose Dalinar at the time of Gavilar's death, then don't you think there would be some more specific advice?

I do agree that the Parshendi are likely more than just the Voidbringers, or possibly not even Voidbringers at all. I also agree that they seem to be committed to the war more for the benefit of the Alethi than for themselves. Personally I think they are the Dawnsingers, but that's another thread (although the symmetry is kind of nice).

[Observer]

I always assumed that the Parshendi chants were Dawnchants. Am I the only one?

Besides the above post, I do like the idea of the Parshendi having something to do with Honor. They do act honorably in battle, but we know so little of their actual culture that we can't make much of a judgement.

Shards require someone to hold them to have more than a "weak will" as Sazed put it. It stretches what little we know of Shardic theory for me to believe that Odium could splinter Honor into a nation of corporeal, sentient beings with a culture and biology able to interact with Roshar.

Nothing we know of says that the pieces of a splintered shard can't be picked up or bestowed individually, so it is entirely possible that Honor used the last of his will to lodge his splintered pieces into some Parshmen, which would give them at least a small sense of honor at the barest minimum, and at maximum would make them mini-shards with some wierd powers(Like armor growing from them anyone?) and a telepathic communication with all other pieces of honor (Sound familiar?)

/rant

[Vortaan]

I always assumed that the Parshendi chants were Dawnchants. Am I the only one?

Besides the above post, I do like the idea of the Parshendi having something to do with Honor. They do act honorably in battle, but we know so little of their actual culture that we can't make much of a judgement.

Nothing we know of says that the pieces of a splintered shard can't be picked up or bestowed individually, so it is entirely possible that Honor used the last of his will to lodge his splintered pieces into some Parshmen, which would give them at least a small sense of honor at the barest minimum, and at maximum would make them mini-shards with some wierd powers(Like armor growing from them anyone?) and a telepathic communication with all other pieces of honor (Sound familiar?)

/rant

Hrm. So instead of creating the Parshendi, he implants them with splinters, making them more sentient than the average Parshendi and gifting them with the music thing?

Alright, I'll buy that as a possibility. Have an upvote, good sir.

[Observer]

I was wondering where that came from...

Think of it like so: This is going to be a 10 book epic. There is almost no way Brandon would play his hand and tell us who the big baddies are so early on. I'm guessing the Parshendi had something to do with the Voidbringers, but I don't think they really are them. Normal Parshmen appear to have telepathy, and I honestly have no idea how to explain that short of...wait a moment...

What if, like on Scadrial, every Parshmen has a little bit of Honor in them, and somehow it can be activated to create a full-blown Parshendi! They take their dead outside and stick them on stone slabs, which might be why they revere stone so much. It awakens a new Parshendi, or maybe it does something totally amazing we have no way of being able to observe at the current time. Maybe I'm just crazy, I don't know!

Still, I like the idea of the odd changed wrought on the Parshendi being caused by unfocused shard power.

And do we know if what they sing is a Dawnchant?

/clutter

[Vortaan]

I was wondering where that came from...

Think of it like so: This is going to be a 10 book epic. There is almost no way Brandon would play his hand and tell us who the big baddies are so early on. I'm guessing the Parshendi had something to do with the Voidbringers, but I don't think they really are them. Normal Parshmen appear to have telepathy, and I honestly have no idea how to explain that short of...wait a moment...

What if, like on Scadrial, every Parshmen has a little bit of Honor in them, and somehow it can be activated to create a full-blown Parshendi! They take their dead outside and stick them on stone slabs, which might be why they revere stone so much. It awakens a new Parshendi, or maybe it does something totally amazing we have no way of being able to observe at the current time. Maybe I'm just crazy, I don't know!

Still, I like the idea of the odd changed wrought on the Parshendi being caused by unfocused shard power.

And do we know if what they sing is a Dawnchant?

/clutter

You know, I had forgotten about the stone thing with the Parshendi dead. It's an interesting link to the Shin, don't you think?

Also I made a post somewhere where I described my theory on the Parshendi/Dawnchant connection. The points raised against it were that someone would have probably twigged to it by now, which I find unlikely. Alethi male nobility aren't exactly a group with a well-rounded education

[Observer]

You know, I had forgotten about the stone thing with the Parshendi dead. It's an interesting link to the Shin, don't you think?

Also I made a post somewhere where I described my theory on the Parshendi/Dawnchant connection. The points raised against it were that someone would have probably twigged to it by now, which I find unlikely. Alethi male nobility aren't exactly a group with a well-rounded education

The Women who can read aren't fighting, the Men who can't are. They'd never regongnize Dawnchant. Furthermore, it's indecipherable, and I doubt anybody took the time to memorize what looks like gibberish to them, so even if they heard the Parshendi, the lack of memorization and knowledge of pronunciation would hinder them from recognizing it.

The sacredness of stone and the Parshmen getting stuck on a slab of it has to be connection. Brandon doesn't leave any details of that kind alone, he works with them. Especially if it's gonn abe 10 books.

[happyman]

The sacredness of stone and the Parshmen getting stuck on a slab of it has to be connection. Brandon doesn't leave any details of that kind alone, he works with them. Especially if it's gonn abe 10 books.

True this. Something is up with Stone and the Shin and the Parshmen/Parshendi.

[Senor Feesh]

Major problem I have with the theory is actually a simple one - Gavilar was the King of Alethkar. He'd ALREADY united the Highprinces (albeit through conquest). Why then assassinate him, giving the Highprinces the opportunity to splinter again if you wanted them to be united? Would it not be more likely that if they wanted to cause anything, it would be strife?

[tipbruley]

Hmmm very interesting. I would like to expand on the theory and say that Parshmen can be influenced by either Honor or Hate. This would explain the books saying that the Parshmen were voidbringers. Somehow Odium influenced them in the past. Parshmen could be the husks that either get turned into Voidbringers or Parshendi based on what Shard influences them. Maybe creating the Parshendi was the last act Honor did before biting the dust!

[Straff Venture]

Major problem I have with the theory is actually a simple one - Gavilar was the King of Alethkar. He'd ALREADY united the Highprinces (albeit through conquest). Why then assassinate him, giving the Highprinces the opportunity to splinter again if you wanted them to be united? Would it not be more likely that if they wanted to cause anything, it would be strife?

The problem with Gavilar's unity of Alethkar was that it wasn't based around anything except Gavilar, Dalinar and Sadeas ctrushing the other highprinces into submission. A kingdom built on blood would easily break apart (and as we can see from Kaladin's time in Amaram's army, it already is). What Alethkar really needs is something to unite against. After all, Alethkar culture all the way to the Alethela is based around war, what better way to get them all together by having a common enemy? Of course, as we saw on the shattered plains, the highprinces are still very much separated. At this point, we just bring in Dalinar Kholin (who in the thread is referred to as Honor's chosen leader, or something like that) to become highprince of war and finally, properly unite them.

[Observer]

What Venture said. They're united, but not in the sense they need to be. They need a leader to get behind and a common enemy to get against.

[name_here]

It's probably not Dawnchant, mostly because Dalinar's babbling during the visions is Dawnchant and Adolin does not notice any connection.

[Observer]

You don't really memorize babble. If a baby babbles, and then 3 dayslater another baby babbles in a similar way, it's not like you'll draw a connection. In all likelyhood Parshendi are dawnchanting, but nobody's ever noticed or connected it. Written babble is hard to connect to spoken babble, and obscure generals nobody has heard babble is hard to connect to rarely-paid-attention to babble.

Did any of that make sense?

[Riddlesinthedark]

You don't really memorize babble. If a baby babbles, and then 3 dayslater another baby babbles in a similar way, it's not like you'll draw a connection. In all likelyhood Parshendi are dawnchanting, but nobody's ever noticed or connected it. Written babble is hard to connect to spoken babble, and obscure generals nobody has heard babble is hard to connect to rarely-paid-attention to babble.

Did any of that make sense?

No it doesn't, because while you likely won't memorize random babble, you will recognize a foreign language. Especially with repetition. Adolin has heard the Parshendi chanting quite often in this war, and has been with his father through several Highstorms.

Especially if Dawnchant is a source language for modern Alethi. It might not be comparative to Latin or Greek, but if you had often heard your enemies shouting in Proto-European, and then your Father starts off in it...

[Observer]

Depends on what they're saying. I imagine languages isn't a masuline art, and if Dalinar isn't saying anything similar to the Parshendi's wa chants, it's quite possible they're speaking the same language. Maybe the Parshendi speak a different branch off of the Dawnchants. Either way, it would also explain how easily they learned Alethi.

Edited September 9, 2012 by Observer

[Aethling]

I will have to go with Voldy. Remember when they broke the code of the dreams it was when Adolin's aunt just happened to hear the dream and recognized the language from her studies. Adolin has had tons of experience fighting and listening to his father's dreams. If they were the same language he would have picked it up by now.

[Straff Venture]

I really love this theory lightflame. Its one of the few I've seen thats properly turned my own views on plot point and progression in BS books around. So thanks, I guess

[CabbageHead]

I will have to go with Voldy. Remember when they broke the code of the dreams it was when Adolin's aunt just happened to hear the dream and recognized the language from her studies. Adolin has had tons of experience fighting and listening to his father's dreams. If they were the same language he would have picked it up by now.

I like this theory, and the bit about Adolin not recognising it can be fairly easily explained. Even ignoring differences of biology between Humans and Parshendi, and ignoring differences of accent, there is a world of difference between war chants and a conversation. All of the "gibberish" that Dalinar produces in his stormdreams are his side of a conversation with another person, not a song chanted at enemies on a battlefield.

[Observer]

The reason nobody recognized it is because women aren't out on the battlefield pointing out the magical parallels between Parshendia and Dawnchant. The phonetic differences between accents and the difference in word sounds between "Die. Die. Kill with honor. Die, shoot bow, kill kill" or whatever Parshendi say, and a conversation between Dalinar and Honor are quite large I'd imagine.

[Aethling]

Even what might be considered different languages today that originated from a common tongue can sometimes be understood without someone knowing both "languages." I knew a woman from Sweden when I was getting my MA. She had never taken any German classes, but she could still get the gist of someone speaking Dutch and German because they were related to her native language. She did not understand everything, but she could tell the languages were related. When I was getting my BA, I looked at a friend's basic French textbook and was able to read most of it even though I had never taken any French classes, but I had several years of Spanish.

Southerners can still understand Yankees while speaking. An Englander can still understand a Scot when he is speaking English (By Englander I mean someone from England specifically, not a citizen of the UK). Those are the same language, but accents can be remarkably different.

I would be willing to go along if someone said they could be distant derivatives of the same language or if they shared some common words or origins like English and German and Latin. The mushing together would stop someone from being able to recognize the language, but then it would lose the right to be called the same language. Possibly an example like Old, Middle, and Modern English as well, but there is a reason the languages are separated.

[Observer]

I'm fairly sure I mentioned that.

Maybe the Parshendi speak a different branch off of the Dawnchants. Either way, it would also explain how easily they learned Alethi.

[Aethling]

Different branches can't really be called the same language. That would mean that you are calling French, Italian, and Spanish the same language because they all descended from Latin.

I would concede there could be a link like Spanish/Latin, but I would not call the evolved tounge Dawnchant.

[CabbageHead]

Even what might be considered different languages today that originated from a common tongue can sometimes be understood without someone knowing both "languages." I knew a woman from Sweden when I was getting my MA. She had never taken any German classes, but she could still get the gist of someone speaking Dutch and German because they were related to her native language. She did not understand everything, but she could tell the languages were related. When I was getting my BA, I looked at a friend's basic French textbook and was able to read most of it even though I had never taken any French classes, but I had several years of Spanish.

Southerners can still understand Yankees while speaking. An Englander can still understand a Scot when he is speaking English (By Englander I mean someone from England specifically, not a citizen of the UK). Those are the same language, but accents can be remarkably different.

I would be willing to go along if someone said they could be distant derivatives of the same language or if they shared some common words or origins like English and German and Latin. The mushing together would stop someone from being able to recognize the language, but then it would lose the right to be called the same language. Possibly an example like Old, Middle, and Modern English as well, but there is a reason the languages are separated.

None of those are good comparisons for the situation in the WoK though. Someone who knows no language other than Cherokee would be unlikely to be able to tell whether a Scottish person and a Pakistani person, heard at different times in different places, saying different things under different circumstances, were speaking the same language. The examples you are giving presuppose some level of familiarity with the language in question. Nobody in WoK knows Dawnchant, not even Navani who guesses that that is what Dalinar is speaking.

[Zas678]

Ehhh, I don't think so. I think that the fact that Dalinar was saying and making similar sounds to Parshendi would be something that Adolin would notice and be very frightened by. No, I think that the Parshendi either don't speak the Dawnchant, or their language is as far away from the Dawnchant as English is from Latin.