Firefight Spoilers discussion

[Angsos]

I thought Obliteration blew himself up in Regalia's bunker. I'm of the David is an epic persuasion and his weakness is a good metaphor. Loved all the bad similes

[Angsos]

I thought Obliteration blew himself up in Regalia's bunker. I'm of the David is an epic persuasion and his weakness is a good metaphor. Loved all the bad similes

[Sand Master]

So, I posted this in a different Firefight spoilers thread, but I guess it got moved or something. I'm still pretty new to all this. Anyway, here's my take on the whole thing:

 

I half expected Calamity to be an Epic, though admittedly I thought it would be an epic named after the Calamity in the sky. I remembered from reading somewhere that the third book would be called Calamity, and the other two books have been the names of Epics so far, so it makes sense that the third one wouldn't deviate. I found David's interpretation -- that Calamity was simply an all-powerful Epic who gifts pieces of his powers to ordinary people -- to be very interesting. It seems like it fits, though as anyone who's read Sanderson's books knows, what seems obvious or fitting at first can be completely wrong in the end. Given that we don't know anything for sure, though, there's still the questions of who, what, where, why, and how, all in relation to Calamity himself. Can't wait to see what comes of that.

 

I found the ending scene with Megan to be fascinating. We've never seen anything like her powers before, (though, granted, Prof's pretty unique too) and it makes me wonder if there's something special about her, or if she really is just another Epic. She said that her power is strongest just after reincarnating, and that's obviously true. When it wears off, she isn't all that powerful (as she herself said), but when she's in all her glory.... The ability to basically reshape reality to whatever you want, as long as in any of the infinite possible universes that exist there is at least one where what you want to happen happens, is pretty godlike. I was practically giggling when she moved Prof's force field bubble around and scared him. It'll be interesting to see if her powers get weaker again (though for plot's sake, I can't see any other option. Can you imagine having what is essentially God on your side?) or if they stay as powerful as they were when we last saw them. Similarly, I am also curious to know if -- now that she's come back once after facing her fears without corruption -- her powers can now be used without any corruption again, or if that was simply a one-time deal.

 

As far as Dawnslight goes, I'm interested to see what happens to him. Regalia said that she wanted Prof there as a successor, so I think it's reasonable to assume that he'll take over rule of Babilar, (Babylon Restored --> Babyl R --> Babilar. Thought that was clever.) in which case, he'll also have control of Dawnslight, won't he? Dawnslight would be pretty difficult to move out of there, comatose as he is, and I'm guessing Prof will want to keep him alive and secure, much like Steelheart did with Conflux. Prof is pretty much evil now, but he's not stupid. He'll realize the effect that killing Dawnslight will have; all the food and light would suddenly be gone, and perhaps his plants holding up the buildings would die too. Not great circumstances for a stable government. However, considering how Dawnslight rebelled against Regalia, I wonder what Prof would do if Dawnslight did the same to him. This is why I mentioned that I'm interested to see what happens to him. On the one hand, he provides a necessary resource. On the other, he'd be defying a High Epic, and we all know they don't have much patience for insubordination.

 

Honestly, I almost expect them to take down Prof relatively quickly in the next book. Presumably it will be the last in the series, and they'll have to deal with both Evil Prof and Calamity. For all that Prof is a huge danger and a fallen friend, I feel that Calamity will be the main focus of the book (and not just because of the title). I suppose it's possible that they could juggle dealing with both Prof and Calamity at the same time, or maybe they'll just deal with Calamity, removing all Epic powers (and therefore saving Prof and the rest of the world) in doing so.

 

What follows was not originally in what I posted, but after reading what everyone else said, there's a couple things I'd like to mention. A big one seems to be David's innate ability to use Epic powers. While this seems like -- and could very well be -- important, I have a feeling it won't be. I feel about this much the same way as I do about David's ability to inspire people, in that it's just part of who he is. The two instances we have of his speedy learning curve aren't really all that similar, when you think about them. The "tensors" were really just a cover for Prof's gifted disintegration power, and the spyril was a machine based off an Epic's power. True, he learns to use both quickly, but as we've seen, David gets kind of obsessed about things. Though not in a nerdy way, mind you. I think it's entirely possible that he just learns quickly, particularly when it's related to something he's passionate about. I also mentioned his ability to inspire people and make them listen to him. Anyone who's read the Stormlight Archive knows that people say much the same things about Kaladin, and he's definitely not an Epic. It's just who he is. A bit more lackluster than the alternatives of David secretly having some latent power, I know, but I think that it's at least likely, if not true.

 

Lots to think about, now I'm off to try to hibernate or cryogenically freeze myself until the next book comes out.

[Twenty@20]

I don't know if this has already been mentioned, but... does Fortuity have nightmares about beautiful women?

Ya, right? This is what I thought. Probably he used to get all awkward and tongue-tied in-front of them so he had a latent fear for them. What about Nightweilder and his weakness to UV-rays? Probably got burns from overexposure to UV-rays. 

 

All this discussion about weaknesses is interesting but I am also curious about the powers. Is there some pattern to them too? Now that we know that Calamity grants the powers to the Epics, perhaps there is some underlying theme about the Powers too? I am speculating it may be tied to their desires or secret superhero fantasies from childhood.    I guess I should stop now.

[Khognilin]

Oh, boy... This was Sanderson on steroids. He is getting even better, how on earth is he getting better??? I loved this book from the get go. It is a lovely, heartworming-heartbreaking adventure. I found the first book entertaining, but this one is better by leaps and bounds. The pacing is perfect, it answered enough question, while still raising many others, and it made me empathize not only with our heroes, but with our we-are-not-so-sure-if-they-are-villans-victims-or-heroestobe. I had enormous expectations and I was worried that I might be disappointed (as I was with Mitosis), but every expectation I had was fulfilled twice over. I found the half-submerged, brightly glowing, overgrown with trees-inside-building Manhattan to be a lovely setting

[Andrew C]

If Calamity were a shard, I feel it would be Temptation, not Fear. "Here's infinite power. The price is only your soul - oh and a weakness."

 

I'm going to need to read the book again, but I'm not sure whether David is now a post-fear High Epic like Megan, or a human that was saved by Megan.

 

What I really want to know is what happens in the six hours after the book finished. Phaedrus is going to go on a Reckoner-killing rampage if unstopped. If Tia isn't his weakness, she's probably #1 on the list.

 

Finally, Prof's history. I think it's pretty certain now that his Rending involved him going postal and killing his students (something I suspected from Steelheart). Like Steelheart, finding his weakness will be essential to killing him.

[Sand Master]

It is a lovely, heartworming-heartbreaking adventure.

 

Hm. Remind me to mention this book to anyone I know who ever gets worms. In their heart. *shudders*

[Khognilin]

My bad

[Nokomis]

David reminds me of Devin from warbreaker prime. His ability to boost people's confidence is exceptional and his faith that they will do the right thing is unwavering. He makes every effort to bring out the best in them. Even the scene with the Prof at the end, David's faith is remarkable.

I'm with the camp that believes he does indeed have powers. The raging, as it were, of other epics can also be seen as a learning period. Without the raging he hasn't had the opportunity to see exactly what he can do. I've been trying to think of something "thematically appropriate" and what I quoted above gives be another idea besides the ones I've thought of. Maybe he's like a Bard, a la FFXI, in that he inspires others to enhance their abilities.

I've also been thinking, maybe, once he's learned a weakness, he can manifest it when faced with that epic. Or maybe, and this is a bit Mary Sue, but maybe he's gains the powers of epics he kills.

Now that I think about it, I'm leaning towards the Bard theory, add that would give him abilities without really being an epic, kinda. I've noticed a theme of characters that are really interested in those with powers, but aren't among them, but can still somehow help them. ie, Rithmatist.

*edit

The problem with the theory that David's biggest fear is becoming an epic and thusly negates his power is that he didn't rage, he was able to suppress it. The question is, can a weakness nullify even a raging epic?

Edited January 11, 2015 by Nokomis

[vineyarddawg]

I just finished the book about 30 minutes ago, so I'm still not sure where I stand on the "Is David an Epic or not" question. I can see it both ways, and I'm not sure which I want to be true.

 

If David is an epic, I think his powers are not stealing other Epic's powers, but rather being able to detect Epics and also being able to manipulate other people's emotions.  (So, in other words, he can do things both a seeker and a soother can do.  And what about working the sypril so well?  Coinshotting, anyone? OMG DAVID'S A MISTBORN!!)

 

But I think it's just as likely that David is an idealistic kid who's working his butt off as a Reckoner, and that devotion and work ethic makes people respect him. And the fact that he had studied epics so intensely for the better part of a decade means that he just inately knows what to look for in an epic's mannerisms, so he can usually figure out who the (non-camouflaged) epics are.

 

I can see it either way, and I can't wait to see how it all works out in Calamity.

[junior]

The theory regarding David that I've been considering is that Calamity has an opposite.  Calamity makes his presence felt in a very open way, and his agents are very noticeable.  Calamity's opposite, on the other hand, uses agents that don't appear to be anyone out of the ordinary.  But, as Megan notes about David, these agents are capable of inspiring others.

[redsunzire]

Was it actually confirmed whether Megan actually killed Sam? Did I miss anything?

[junior]

The only confirmation is the video, in which it appears she only drew her weapon after Sam did.

 

David thinks that she's avoiding the topic, but he never actually discusses it with her.  He does make a note at the end that he's going to need to speak with her about it at some point.  So I suspect it'll come up again in 'Calamity'.

[RShara]

Ya, right? This is what I thought. Probably he used to get all awkward and tongue-tied in-front of them so he had a latent fear for them. What about Nightweilder and his weakness to UV-rays? Probably got burns from overexposure to UV-rays. 

 

All this discussion about weaknesses is interesting but I am also curious about the powers. Is there some pattern to them too? Now that we know that Calamity grants the powers to the Epics, perhaps there is some underlying theme about the Powers too? I am speculating it may be tied to their desires or secret superhero fantasies from childhood.    I guess I should stop now.

 

 

For Fortuity, I didn't think that his entire weakness was when he was attracted to a person, just that it affected him.  Maybe his fear is of being rejected, and there's some of that when he sees a woman for the first time, so it weakens him.  And if a woman rejects him or laughs at him or something like that, he would lose his powers.

 

Nightwielder, I always like to think he's afraid of vampires  

Or had a bad experience with a tanning bed?  Or is photosensitive

[kuchapel]

Some random thoughts after reading:

Why did Obliteration leave? What is his fear/weakness?

Megan's escape from "true death by fire" is very similar to how Deathless avoided "true death by Infinity Blade" in Sanderson's other stories.

My theory is that David did become an Epic. However, "being an Epic" is his ultimate fear. So, when he became an Epic, his fear came true, and as a result, he was limited by his weakness and he won't be able to use any of his Epic abilities. That means in the climax of book 3, David has to overcome this fear to really become an Epic. Just a theory.

i don't think becoming weak would make you susceptible to being able to get powers from others.But just a thought. 

[Bronzeheart]

What I really want to know is what happens in the six hours after the book finished. Phaedrus is going to go on a Reckoner-killing rampage if unstopped. If Tia isn't his weakness, she's probably #1 on the list.

 

One thing I've noticed in a lot of Brandon's books is the element of sacrifice. Vin's suicide attack against Ruin (Hero of Ages) and Lightsong's sacrifice to heal Susebron (Warbreaker) both stand out in particular to me.

 

I think that Tia and Phaedrus are going to be the most likely ones to sacrifice themselves in some way in Calamity. My thoughts are that either Tia will sacrifice herself to help bring down Prof or Phaedrus will sacrifice himself to stop Calamity.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Bronzeheart

[Sammael_Rose]

 Since I'm old and jaded its been a very long time since I actually screamed and pumped my fist in the air at something that's happening in a book.

 Firefight broke that years long standing truth with a single short sentance:

 "Megan had arrived."

 That single sentance is a culmination of so much in the Steelheart universe.

 She is the one that David's father knew would come.

 She is the one the Faithfull are waiting for.

 And she pulled a "Big damnation hero" entrance.

[natc]

I've always thought Damnation didn't work right when not used as a single word phrase. Zahel was right, this Damnation language needs good idioms. Makes me eat the wrong flower it does.

David's father was right all along! Sure, it's overcoming fear that did the trick, but the power of love is why she succeeded, so it can't be dismissed.

The hero did come, she just needed someone to help her along.

[mathmo]

The only confirmation is the video, in which it appears she only drew her weapon after Sam did.

 

David thinks that she's avoiding the topic, but he never actually discusses it with her.  He does make a note at the end that he's going to need to speak with her about it at some point.  So I suspect it'll come up again in 'Calamity'.

 

The big moral question:  If you reincarnate after being shot, is it still self-defense if you shoot back under those circumstances?  

[Edgedancer]

The big moral question:  If you reincarnate after being shot, is it still self-defense if you shoot back under those circumstances?  

It´s not that she simply comes back to life, which would cast a prettty bad light on killing someone, unless it´s a snap decision made in an panicked state of mind but she also gets her personality altered when she resurects. Personally I would say that going directly in for the kill is to much, I wouldn´t call it straight out murder either, though.

 

So... moral gray area? It really depends how much time she had to react/think and if she could have gotten herself out of the situation without shooting him.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Edgedancer

[mathmo]

It´s not that she simply comes back to life, which would cast a prettty bad light on killing someone, unless it´s a snap decision made in an panicked state of mind but she also gets her personality altered when she resurects. Personally I would say that going directly in for the kill is to much, I wouldn´t call it straight out murder either, though.

 

So... moral gray area? It really depends how much time she had to react/think and if she could have gotten herself out of the situation without shooting him.

Well, we don't know if it's just the personality - is it the same Megan who resurrects?  And just because "she's always resurrected before", doesn't mean she definitely will the next time.

 

And I'm going to guess that being shot is a pretty unpleasant experience, let alone the experience of dying.  

 

I find myself feeling "Yeah, it's not a 'fair' fight, and it would be nice to avoid killing in those circumstances.  But I think you'd need to be pretty saintly to let someone shoot you instead."

[junior]

Self-defense if you reincarnate?

 

Sure.  Absolutely.  If someone's attempting to break my arm (while promising immediate medical attention afterwards to keep it from becoming life-threatening), I don't think anyone's going to complain if I try and shoot that person first.  Fatal injuries don't stick on Megan.  But they do tend to be extremely painful events.  In this particular instance, there would have been both the gunshot wound (because having a hole blown into and possibly through you is such a pleasant experience), and the trauma that she's mentioned she experiences when she wakes up the next morning.

 

Having said that, I think something else was going on that we're not aware of yet.  Megan kept the motivator, and Regalia just happened to be watching.  I don't think it was an accident that Megan and Sam ran into each other.

[chacedawn]

Firefight is definitely a very solid continuation of Steelheart. I have a question though. Where did Obliteration go? I asked the same question on Goodreads and someone replied saying that he killed himself (suicide) because he realized what David had said and about the weakness thing. I'm really confused. Is it canon that Obliteration died?

[Edgedancer]

Firefight is definitely a very solid continuation of Steelheart. I have a question though. Where did Obliteration go? I asked the same question on Goodreads and someone replied saying that he killed himself (suicide) because he realized what David had said and about the weakness thing. I'm really confused. Is it canon that Obliteration died?

Nope, as far as we know it´s a far better guess that he´s of to face his weakness and will return in Calamity. There´s really no reason to assume he´s dead.

[Observer]

Self-defense if you reincarnate?

 

Sure.  Absolutely.  If someone's attempting to break my arm (while promising immediate medical attention afterwards to keep it from becoming life-threatening), I don't think anyone's going to complain if I try and shoot that person first.  Fatal injuries don't stick on Megan.  But they do tend to be extremely painful events.  In this particular instance, there would have been both the gunshot wound (because having a hole blown into and possibly through you is such a pleasant experience), and the trauma that she's mentioned she experiences when she wakes up the next morning.

 

Having said that, I think something else was going on that we're not aware of yet.  Megan kept the motivator, and Regalia just happened to be watching.  I don't think it was an accident that Megan and Sam ran into each other.

 

From a utilitarian perspective, it's far better to kill the somebody before they force Megan to reincarnate, or at the very least it used to be. When she comes back, she's super powerful and extremely corrupted by Calamity. The amount of damage she can and probably will do before getting a hold of herself likely outweighs the damage of dropping one guy. But maybe that's just me.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Observer