Question about Copperclouds

[Lanscaper]

So...I've had this thought for a while, and I just realized that I'm not sure if it actually works or not. So my question is: Do Copperclouds stack? As in, if there are two Smokers burning copper and their bubbles overlap could a Steel Inquisitor pierce through that area of overlap? And in terms of the Adventure Game if there are two Smokers/Copperclouds with a rating of 6 and they overlap, could a Steel Inquisitor with the max rating of 10 pierce through the overlapping area?

I think that I've asked this before, although I can't remember who I asked and what the response was, but I have a slight recollection that they do stack, and have an additive effect.

[Vortaan]

... Good question. From how emotional Allomancy works, I'm inclined to say yes, they stack. Since multiple Soothers can control koloss where one can't, it would stand to reason that multiple Smokers are the cure to the Inquisitor coppercloud piercing. In fact, it almost has to be that way otherwise the skaa underground could have easily been snapped up by Inquisitors just roaming through Luthadel.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

On the surface, the idea makes sense. However, when Vin and Kelsier stormed Kredik Shaw, they were both burning Copper, and the Inquisitors knew anyway. So, I would assume this trick doesn't work.

If I had to speculate on why, I'd guess it to be related to the reason why you cannot burn Bronze and Copper at the same time. Something about that pairing just seems to be oddly exclusive.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[Vortaan]

I can't remember if there's a point where Vin is far enough from Kelsier that it might be feasible that they weren't close to each other to be outside each other's copperclouds. Regardless, they weren't both together -before- they stormed Kredik Shaw. How far were they from the palace before they stormed it? If where Kelsier stopped to look at Kredik Shaw is close enough that Inquisitors could have sensed him, he would likely have been burning copper, steel, pewter, and tin. That would identify him as a Mistborn to an Inquisitor and it might be standing orders since Kelsier's first attempt that if any Mistborn is sensed near Kredik Shaw, the Inquisitors would retreat to the Lord Ruler's room to protect it. Flimsy reasoning, but... eh. It's all I got.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Vortaan

[Commander Spoonface]

On the surface, the idea makes sense. However, when Vin and Kelsier stormed Kredik Shaw, they were both burning Copper, and the Inquisitors knew anyway. So, I would assume this trick doesn't work.

If I had to speculate on why, I'd guess it to be related to the reason why you cannot burn Bronze and Copper at the same time. Something about that pairing just seems to be oddly exclusive.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

But there were also multiple Inquisitors, some even more powerful at Seeking than Vin.

[Thought]

Given how copper and bronze are described, as emitting pulses, I'd assume that it would be kind of like banging drums. One drum will produce a noise, but if you add a second drum, you don't magically make the sound twice as loud, you just make it more chaotic.

[king of nowhere]

maybe they stack partially. the drumming example could fit here: if you are drumming to cover another sound, then adding a second drum would not make twice as hard to ddetect the smaller sound, but it would make it harder.

Anyway, from what we know of allomancy there's no reason they should not stack.

Possible reasons for why the inquisitors sensed Vin and Kelsier there:

- someone of them was so strong at bronze that he could pierce the cloud anyway

- there were some moments where vin and kelsier got separated, being at opposite ends of long corridors. maybe in those moments their clouds were not close enough to stack

- the lord ruler himself felt them. he was surely srong enough to pierce 2 copperclouds

- they just felt them through something more mundane, like for example all the noise they did in breaking in killing a dozen guards

[dj26792]

Yeah, Kelsiers solo attack on the guards would have had him clear of Vin's coppercloud I suspect and would have been very noisy, they might have been detected then and they almost definitely would have been heard then. That the Inquisitors knew they were coming then is hardly unbelievable even if their clouds do stack.

[Squigy]

it should be pointed out that in the original question it is 2 Smokers of rating 6, and a Seeker of rating 10 thus 12 v 10 smokers win

however, in the Mistborn Adventure Book both Vin and Kelsier are given as having copper ratings of 4, marsh is given bronze ratings of 11 or 12 at different parts of the books, while an regular inquisitor is given a bronze rating of 6

thus their storm of the palace was likely 8 v 6-10, and they would have lost to some inquisiters

also, each metal pulses at one of 2 rates (the 2nd when being flared) and if you release 2 wave sorses with identical frequency they will combine to form a single wave with greater amplitude, thus a single "louder" effect should occur from complimentary Allomancy.

as for more mundane tactics, I seem to remember a part in HoA where Marsh described his vision as being able to see through feeling things through a combination of Iron, Steel and Tin Allomancy, I would imagine that the inquisitors have some degree of x-ray-vision-like-powers by focusing on lines to the iron in a person's blood instead of the bits of metal elements in the wall that is separating them, similar to how Preservation and Ruin and later Harmony can see through stuff that isn't metal

[Observer]

Possible Answers:

1: The Lord Ruler caught them. He's strong enough that he'd see them coming the moment they walked in the door

2: They made plenty of noise. Inquisitors would have definately heard something with tin

3: Ironlines go through walls. Hence, Inquisitors probably see through walls, exposing Vin and Kelsier

4: Tripple Bronze Inquisitor, or maybe even a double, may be able to pierce a double coppercloud regardless of if it stacks

5: It's not like they stayed very close together at some points, it's plausbile that they stopped overlapping long enough to be spotted

6: Maybe overlapping doesn't double the effect. Maybe it simply didn't raise it enough to matter.

My.....6 cents.

[Vortaan]

Oh, possible third reason. We don't have an example of Inquisitor double bronze. Vin's spike is her earring, and she doesn't wear it constantly. Presumably it's lost a lot it's charge over the years. Maybe a fully charged double bronze would work.

[Voidus]

Oh, possible third reason. We don't have an example of Inquisitor double bronze. Vin's spike is her earring, and she doesn't wear it constantly. Presumably it's lost a lot it's charge over the years. Maybe a fully charged double bronze would work.

There's always going to be some loss of power, it's the nature of Hemalurgy so unless Coppercloud stacking works slightly less efficiently (eg. 2x Copperclouds =1.8 strength not 2x strength)

[Cones For Eyes]

If I had to speculate on why, I'd guess it to be related to the reason why you cannot burn Bronze and Copper at the same time. Something about that pairing just seems to be oddly exclusive.

If I had to guess, if a normal strength mistborn can't pierece another misting/mistborn's coppercloud, I can't see a reason why they would be able to pierece their own while it's active. Does this make any sense?

As for the stacking copperclouds, I would instinctively assume that they could stack. Many plausable explanations have already been offered to explain why Vin and Kelsier were detected at Kredik Shaw. At the very least, I don't think that event falsifies the stacking copperclouds conjecture.

[Observer]

Cones is right. We've listed all likely possibilities, but at the end of the day, we lack the information to know anything.

[sad]

[name_here]

Vim got through two copperclouds simultaneously during both Shan's assassination attempt (two mistborn, probably both using copper) and the fight near the start of Well of Acension (smoker and mistborn, definitely both using copper). So if they do stack, it's almost certainly not addatively.

[Observer]

Woah, totally forgot about Shan. And I'm fairly sure the Mistborn in WoA didn't need copper, there was a Smoker nearby, so we don't have any proof of that.

But yes, I'm guessing they don't stack based on the new information.

[Lady_Yasha]

Allomancy is described as showing attributes of waves. When Vin is able to determine the individual wave of a metal and know who was burning what, it's possible Allomantic metals exhibit the same behaviour that sound, or light, waves do in established science.

That is, when two waves of the same or similar phase cross, they produce an greater wave from the sum of the two. If the waves are perfectly out-of-phase (ie. 180 degrees difference) they will create a destructive effect and cancel each other out (providing each wave has the same amplitude but opposite polarity).

If every metal wave had the same amplitude and Copper was always in-phase then two Copperclouds would reinforce by a factor of how ever many were burning Copper in the same vicinity. Waves are the summation of peaks at a particular time, if one is negative it serves as a destructive summation (eg. 10 + (-)5 = 5). I doubt specific Allomantic metals are ever out-of-phase since Vin is able to discern the metal by the wave formation and never describes one metal as having two distinct waves. That is, I believe Copperclouds would reinforce each other.

If this doesn't make sense it's because I've been drinking

Edited August 29, 2012 by Lyrebon

[Observer]

That is, when two waves of the same or similar phase cross, they produce an greater wave from the sum of the two. If the waves are perfectly out-of-phase (ie. 180 degrees difference) they will create a destructive effect and cancel each other out (providing each wave has the same amplitude).

In the event that the WoA Mistborn was burning copper, that gives us another instance of stacked copperclouds that should have confused Vin. (But did she even burn bronze in that fight? I don't think she did) Still, how did Vin pick up on Shan and her other Mistborn buddy? I'd assume they were close enough for their clouds to mingle, so it makes no sense that Vin picked up on her.

[Cones For Eyes]

If this doesn't make sense it's because I've been drinking

I think I follow...maybe

I have a problem with, for want of a better term, the wave model of allomancy. Without going into horrible physics-ey details, two allomancers burning copper near each other would create regions of stronger and weaker shielding. This is just the same effect as having loud and quiet spots when you have two speakers near each other. This doesn't seem to be the way that it works in the books. I get the feeling that seekers feel pulses but we shouldn't be treating allomancy as some kind of wave phenomenon proporgating outwards from an allomancer.

That's my gut feeling anyway.

[Observer]

That's my gut feeling anyway.

I have a similar feeling, but probably just because I ate seven s'mores.

I get the feeling Bronzebeats sound out for an entirely different reason. I want to pull the Investure card again and say that you can't sense within a coppercloud the same way your can't sense within a body, but I'm not sure if I'm willing to buy that this time around due to the possible flaws.

[Voidus]

Yeah I have a slight problem with the wave model, namely there would have to be some mechanism to cause all copperclouds to be in-phase I prefer to think of it as just they have wave-like behaviour.

[name_here]

I'm pretty sure Vin located the WoA assassination team in the first place by using bronze. They were definitely both burning copper; it's how Vin figured out the "coinshot" was really a Mistborn.

I'm going to call almost certainly false on the coppercloud waves thing. Essentially, given how most Mistborn seem to never turn off their copper and Smokers do it even less often, if there was any way that multiple copperclouds could partially cancel then it would be general knowledge.

Edited August 30, 2012 by name_here

[Observer]

I'm pretty sure Vin located the WoA assassination team in the first place by using bronze. They were definitely both burning copper; it's how Vin figured out the "coinshot" was really a Mistborn.

I could have sworn she only knew that because of Zane, and for locating them I think they attacked first, but I can't be sure. Lemme grab my book.

EDIT: Vin noticed the team because they shot coins at her to start the fight.

She only burned bronze after the smoker was dead, so that proves nothing.

And once more the anti-stacking people and co are foiled >_>

Edited August 30, 2012 by Observer

[Voidus]

Yeah they attacked Vin, she didn't find them and she didn't realise the mistborn was burning copper till after their Smoker was dead.

Edit: Ninja'd!

Edited August 30, 2012 by Voidus

[Cones For Eyes]

Yeah I have a slight problem with the wave model, namely there would have to be some mechanism to cause all copperclouds to be in-phase I prefer to think of it as just they have wave-like behaviour.

Wave-like behaviour? Almost sounds like you're suggesting wave-particle duality! Would Brandon have gone into that much trouble? He does have a scientific background....