Rank - Lighteyes and Darkeyes

[ReaderAt2046]

It's quite possible that the situation with nahn is more complex than just all farmers being fourth or fifth. There's no particular indication that nahn directly limit what jobs a person can get or are provided purely by occupation. For instance, Tien was apprenticing as a carpenter, which is much lower status than surgeon, but there was no indication that he would lose his position as Second Nahn. So if he'd had children they would probably be Second Nahn but not surgeons. At a guess, fifth is unusually high for farmers and the town inhabitants are relatively independent compared to the average.

Also, nahn provide degrees of civil rights. For instance, being Second Nahn provides right of inquest, which seems to mean a reasonably fair trial. So they're probably more about that than job access.

I'd bet that the nahn set a maximum level for what jobs you can get. In other words, Tien (2) could become a carpenter (5) but not, say, a master-servant (1).

[valgerth]

I

Infantrylord, Calverylord - Dalinar has these, I don't know about other princes. In charge of all forces of this type. (I suggest 2nd dahn)

Battalionlord - In charge of 1000 man, has many companylords underneath them(I'm confidant this is limited to >=4th dahn)

Companylord - acts under a battalionlord

CaptainLord - these exists in Sadeas's forces. Kaladin when under Amaram says he must report to one, so I guess these guys are 1 step above Sergeant.

Captain - at the end of the book Kaladrin is promoted to Captain. It is implied to be the highest rank that is less than Battalionlord. (but then how does this compare to a CompanyLord?)

What is the difference between a Captain and a CaptainLord?

My theory is if they are of miliary rank X, and a lighteyes, they are refereed to as a X-lord.

Matal is confirmed as being the new captain, when Lamaril is removed. This may be short for captain lord

Sergeant - Gaz was a Sergeant(and a darkeyes)

Squadleader - leads one of many squads under one Sergeant. (I believe the bridge leaders are roughly equal in rank, though not in status)

---

So here is all my collected information.

You can see I've made allot of guesses (most of them are clearly marked).

I can provide arguments for all statements, I think, challenge me if you think I've made a mistake (or if I can't backup a statement)

I would love some criticisms, and suggestions.

I've left allot of open questions in there.

It would be nice to tidy this up and put it on the Coppermind

 

 

It would appear that a captain is faily low ranking, just one higher than a Sargent,

and we know companylords act under battalionlords,

but it is also implied that captain is the rank immediately bellow battalionlord, as

that is what kalladrin is raised to, Dalinar is all "I dare not raise you to battalionlord.So you are a captain, but exempt from the chain of command." or some such,

 

The wording of the quote seemed important, so I pulled it up to make sure it read like I remember. I think everyone is putting a bit too much connection between the two ranks of captain and battalionlord. I think they are much farther apart. It seems to me at reading the exact quote (3088 in my Nook copy)

 

 

"You have a point," Dalinar said. "You realize, however, that in doing this I would essentially be giving you the same authority as a lighteyes of fourth dahn. You'd be in charge of a thousand former bridgemen. A full battalion."

"Yes."

Dalinar though for a moment. "Very well. Consider yourself appointed to the rank of captain--that's as high as I dare appoint a darkeyes. If I named you battalionlord, it would cause a whole mess of problems.

 

So this implies that while he is putting him in a position where someone normally should be battalionlord, he is only making him a captain. It says nothing for ranks between he also doesn't give him. To put it in perspective using normal military ranks, I read it as him saying, "Consider yourself appointed to the rank of master sergant. If I named you colonel, it would cause a whole mess of problems. (even though he should be a colonel to lead the numbers he is). It says nothing for the other officer ranks in between that he also is not appointed to(such as major in the real world, or companylord in WoK).

[blackmagic3]

Crazyroiter is correct as Hoid is addressed as brightlord even though the night watch don't know his rank. So I suspect that all lighteyes can be addressed as such by darkeyes but from other lighteyes 4th dahn and above are refered to as brightlord.

[hoser]

The wording of the quote seemed important, so I pulled it up to make sure it read like I remember. I think everyone is putting a bit too much connection between the two ranks of captain and battalionlord. I think they are much farther apart. It seems to me at reading the exact quote (3088 in my Nook copy)

 

 

"You have a point," Dalinar said. "You realize, however, that in doing this I would essentially be giving you the same authority as a lighteyes of fourth dahn. You'd be in charge of a thousand former bridgemen. A full battalion."

"Yes."

Dalinar though for a moment. "Very well. Consider yourself appointed to the rank of captain--that's as high as I dare appoint a darkeyes. If I named you battalionlord, it would cause a whole mess of problems.

 

So this implies that while he is putting him in a position where someone normally should be battalionlord, he is only making him a captain. It says nothing for ranks between he also doesn't give him. To put it in perspective using normal military ranks, I read it as him saying, "Consider yourself appointed to the rank of master sergant. If I named you colonel, it would cause a whole mess of problems. (even though he should be a colonel to lead the numbers he is). It says nothing for the other officer ranks in between that he also is not appointed to(such as major in the real world, or companylord in WoK).

 

I wonder whether there is an assumption working here: lighteyes can't be commissioned officers.  It seems simpler and to fit the text just as well to consider that darkeyes can hold ranks up to captain and that captain means captain. 

 

This way, Kaladin was a platoonleader, essentially a lieutenant, back in Amaram's forces.  Now, as a captain, he can lead a company.  These ranks seem compatible with the structure found in Wikipedia. 

 

Consider this exchange when Kaladin is interacting with Dalinar's army:

 

"Immediate command: Who's your captain?"

"Dead", the man said.  "And my companylord. ..."

 

This is compatible with the man serving in a platoon led by a captain who reports to a companylord.  It clearly implies that there are no ranks between captain and companylord.  So the word captain in Dalinar's army could be completely compatible with the wikipedia description use of it: leader of a company or a specialist platoon. 

 

Assuming that captain means master sergeant seems incompatible with the role that Kaladin is being given.  Master sergeant roles don't seem to involve exercising overall command of units. 

 

In a society where men are illiterate, it makes sense for darkeyes to advance to command roles over other darkeyes as the commissioned officer training in a literate society is presumably more involved. 

 

What seems striking to me is that Kaladin is being given at least two distinct jobs:

1. Create, train and lead a battalion of soldiers: job for a colonel.
2. Train and lead Dalinar's personal guard: a specialist platoon or company normally led by a captainlord. 

If Kaladin is training or leading the battalion, who is commanding Dalinar's bodyguard? If he is leading the bodyguard, who is leading the battalion?

Likewise, bridge 4 can't be the leaders of the bridge battalion and simultaneously guarding Dalinar.  Teft seems like a potential master sergeant, but not acting battalionlord. 

 

And then when is Kaladin training with Bridge 4 to become Radiants?

 

Kaladin needs officer help ASAP. 

 

Thoughts of an ignorant non-military person.

Edited May 19, 2013 by hoser

[Shardbearer]

I wonder whether there is an assumption working here: lighteyes can't be commissioned officers.  It seems simpler and to fit the text just as well to consider that darkeyes can hold ranks up to captain and that captain means captain. 

 

I think you've got that backwards. Usually, only nobles would be commissioned officers. If that's the same here, Lighteyes would be the commissioned officers, while darkeyes would be the grunts and NCOs (noncommissioned officers).

 

I think  that Dalinar is already stepping outside of tradition by making Kaladin, a darkeye, into a Captain, which is a CO.

 

I wonder if captain and captainlord are basically different ways of referring to the same rank. Or maybe there are more darkeyed captains, and and captainlord is reserved for the lighteyed ones.

 

Also, there's a lot of interchange between position and rank. In the US Army, a squadleader would be a position, not a rank. The rank of a squadleader would probably be Corporal or Sergeant, an NCO rank.

 

I think that in Alethekar's army, a squadleader is a rank, equal to what a Corporal would  be.

 

After that would be a Sergeant, like Gaz. Squadleaders and Sergeants would be NCOs, not in command, but acting on behalf of the commander to carry out most of the day to day leadership responsibilities. Training, basic discipline, etc.

 

I don't remember any mentions of Liuetenant in WoK. If there are any, those would be Commissioned Officers, and would basically act as a Captain's assistant. They probably wouldn't be in command of anything, unless it was a small unit.

 

Captain/Captainlord: As I said, I don't know what the difference would be between these two. If they are two separate ranks, Captainlord would obviously be higher.

 

Companylord: I would say that this was a position rather than a rank, but this quote makes me think that's not the case:

 

Quote

"Immediate command: Who's your captain?"

"Dead", the man said.  "And my companylord. ..."

 

In modern times, a Captain would usually command a company. I guess in Alethekar a Captain commands a platoon or something. A Companylord would then command a company.

 

For the rest (Battalionlord, Calvarylord, Infantrylord, Highmarshal) the OP seems accurate.

[hoser]

I think you've got that backwards. Usually, only nobles would be commissioned officers. If that's the same here, Lighteyes would be the commissioned officers, while darkeyes would be the grunts and NCOs (noncommissioned officers).

No.  Kaladin was a darkeyed platoon leader.  A platoon is a platoon (a military unit typically composed of two to four sections or squads and containing 26 to 50 soldiers. ... A platoon is typically the smallest military unit led by a commissioned officer—the platoon leader or platoon commander, usually a lieutenant.).  Kaladin was already the equivalent of a darkeyed commissioned officer (a lieutenant) back in Alethkar.  Darkeyes leading platoons seems to be reasonably common. 

Please show me a quote where it indicates that darkeyes can't be commissioned officers (second lieutenant rank or above here, platoonleader role here or there). 

If there is no such quote then it makes sense for captain to mean captain, not master sergeant. 

[Shardbearer]

Kaladin was a squadleader before being made a slave:

 

He also had knots of wite cord on the shoulders of his jerkin, marking him as a squadleader.

 

This is from the first time Cenn sees him, page 39 on my Kindle app.

 

A squadleader is an NCO, which in the US Army would normally be filled by a Corporal or Sergeant.

 

A platoon leader, on the other hand, would be a CO, which would be filled by a Liuetenant in the US Army. Searching on my Kindle app didn't turn up any mentions of platoon, platoonleader, or platoon leader.

 

My statement that only lighteyes would normally be appointed as COs is based on real world correlations. In late medieval times, only nobles could be COs.

[hoser]

Kaladin was a squadleader before being made a slave:

 

 

This is from the first time Cenn sees him, page 39 on my Kindle app.

 

A squadleader is an NCO, which in the US Army would normally be filled by a Corporal or Sergeant.

 

A platoon leader, on the other hand, would be a CO, which would be filled by a Liuetenant in the US Army. Searching on my Kindle app didn't turn up any mentions of platoon, platoonleader, or platoon leader.

 

My statement that only lighteyes would normally be appointed as COs is based on real world correlations. In late medieval times, only nobles could be COs.

Thanks, Shardbearer.  You are right, and I am wrrrrrr ... not right.  Kaladin is a squadleader.  Enjoy an upvote!

 

He leads "about thirty men". He has a sergeant as his second in command.  His squad has subsquads Two and Three, so presumably there are at least three subsquads. 

 

His Alethi squad is numerically a platoon, his subsquads are numerically squads and his second in command is a sergeant, so I claim that he is effectively what we would call a platoon leader and in the modern US Army would hold one of the lieutenant ranks. 

 

If I had to guess, I would say that the point Brandon is making is that lighteyes are scarcer than medieval nobility or that the Alethi armies are proportionately larger, so there aren't enough lighteyes to lead all the squad/platoons. 

 

I don't think this really applies, but apparently in both medieval and modern times plebian soldiers could become commissioned officers as described below: 

A battlefield commission is awarded to enlisted soldiers who are promoted to the rank of commissioned officer for outstanding leadership on the field of battle. The granting of a battlefield commission has its historical predecessor in the medieval practice of the knighting or ennoblement of a plebeian combatant on the battleground for demonstration of heroic qualities in an exceptional degree. In the medieval context, this martial achievement was often one of the main restricted pathways into the sword-bearing feudal aristocracy.

 

Now humiliate me with whatever else I'm missing!

Edited May 21, 2013 by hoser

[Shardbearer]

Hah, my goal isn't to humiliate you or anyone, but I was in the Army so I like to see authors get things right and I like to help readers understand some of the military stuff in books.

My job was more on the staff/support side of things so my knowledge is limited in some regards. I went to Iraq but was never really in direct combat.

I still think of Kaladin as an NCO, even if his "squad" is more like a platoon than a real squad. The way he acts is much more in line with the modern concept of NCOs than with COs.

In modern support units, instead of having a platoon leader there would often be platoon sergeant instead due to the smaller size of support units. Combat units might even have platoon sergeants that work along with the platoon leader, I'm not sure.

In case you (general you) weren't aware, many officer positions have a corresponding NCO position, like this:

Platoon leader/platoon sergeant

Company commander/first sergeant

Battalion commander/sergeant major

Brigade commander/command sergeant major

[Shardbearer]

Ok, so I just skipped ahead in my reread to Kaladins flashback of ch. 1 and it seems that things are different than I've been thinking. Kaladin as a squadleader outranks sergeant. Also, he indicates that he is unusual for having command at his young age, so squadleader is definitely an officer rank.

My thoughts are that subsquad = modern squad, squad = platoon, sergeant = modern squadleader, and squadleader = platoon leader/lieutenant.

[hoser]

...

My thoughts are that subsquad = modern squad, squad = platoon, sergeant = modern squadleader, and squadleader = platoon leader/lieutenant.

Yay! Violent agreement.  And from someone who really knows more than how to look things up on Wikipedia.  Thanks for sharing your expertise. 

Edited May 21, 2013 by hoser

[valgerth]

Ok, I think I wasn't as clear on a couple things, so I'll flesh out what I was saying a bit more. To start with, the ranks I used were random, just meant to show that Dalinar was saying something about ranks that weren't necessarily one above the other. Looking at the culture inherent, it seems that in the military, the top rank you can achieve is generally dictated by your dahn/nahn. By doing something that bears becoming that rank, you earn the increased dahn/nahn to go with it. But to go with that, a dark eyes can only progress to a certain height by nature of their eyes being dark. To go higher they need to become a shardbearer and a light eyes by connection.

This is supported by what Amaram says on page 1952 in my nook copy.

"...Distinguish yourself and rise to a high rank, and it could mean an increase of one nahn for you and your children."

Now bear with me, as I grew up with a lot of military just around me(JROTC and the like).

 

Flag Officers.

In our culture, these are Generals and Admirals. Men put in charge of mutiple battalions, ships etc.

 

Highest in the USA is the President, replaced in this case by the King(Elhokar). Ultimate authority.

 

Next highest, and only used twice in the USA is a 6 Star General, Title is General of the Armies, in Alethi culture, this would be the Highprince of War. Overall command of all the Armies, only answers to the President/King.

 

5 Star General, Our society- General of the Army, Fleet Admiral, General of the Air Force. This is the Highprinces. Ultimate authority over their own troops, except they answer to the HPoW and King. These are only held by Highprinces.(1st Nahn)

 

1-4 Star General/Admiral- Our society are Brigadier Generals/Rear Admirals through General/ Admiral. Not sure how much difference there is between their generals at this rank, but it seems just that General is used in Alethi culture. These would command armies, generally handling one theater of war directly. Amaram is referred to as a general, and the term is used in a few instances. It would seem one must be of the 2nd-3rd dahn at the lowest to have this title.

 

Field Officers

 

In our society these are the men in charge of forces large enough to support themselves for a while, but generally operate under the fold of a larger group. Something like a battalion, or one carrier/destroyer.

 

Colonel/Captain- In charge of a battalion/captain of a ship. The Alethi equivalent would be a battalionlord, which one apparently must be of 4th dahn to be.

 

Major-Lieutenant Colonel/Lieutenant Commader-Commander- These are the XOs on ships for example. Possibly companylord in Alethkar. It would seem at the lower end, possibly 5th dahn could do this.

Havrom, Fifth Battalionlord, waited for Adolin and Dalinar with his company lords in a line. They saluted, right fists to right shoulders, knuckles outward.

 

Junior Officers

This seems to be the highest rank a darkeyed can achieve in equivalence, and the lowest a lighteyed could be by nature of being "better" than darkeyes.

 

Our equivalents are lieutenant (second and first) and captain. For them it seems to be captain and captain lord. A lighteyes lowest rank would be captain lord(equivalent to our captain, and have darkeyed captains answering to them(equivalent to our lieutenants.)

 

Non Commisioned Officers

 

In our society they are sergeants, petty officers. There is a bunch of them and I'm too lazy to type them all seeing as there definitely doesn't seem to be this much differentiation in Alethkar.

 

Suffice it to say it seems that Sergeant with Squadleader below them seems to be the Alethi equivalent.

 

Grunts

Airmen, Private, whatever the hell the Navy equivalent is(right now I'm really remembering why I always hated Navy ranks). This would be spearmen in the armies. Seems most nahn can do this. It even appear slaves (those with no nahn) can too.

 

Now these won't always be a direct correlation and the reason for that is simple, which is the vast difference in numbers. There were much fewer ranks in Roman Armies for example. But that's what happens when your army in composed of thousands or tens or thousands versus the potential for hundreds or thousands to millions.

[hoser]

Suffice it to say it seems that Sergeant with Squadleader below them seems to be the Alethi equivalent.

A minor point is that, as discussed above:

• Alethi squads are numerically equivalent to a modern platoon,
• Alethi subsquads are numerically equivalent to a modern squad
• Alethi squadleaders outrank sergeants, making them like lieutenants/platoonleaders

[valgerth]

A minor point is that, as discussed above:

• Alethi squads are numerically equivalent to a modern platoon,
• Alethi subsquads are numerically equivalent to a modern squad
• Alethi squadleaders outrank sergeants, making them like lieutenants/platoonleaders

You're right, on further reading I see that. I stand by the rest of my stuff, assuming it isn't a tl;dr for everyone lol.

[Kaurne]

With the whole nahn thing, I think everyone's forgetting that 'peasants' weren't some monolithic bloc in medieval times and there is no reason to think that farmers can't be of eighth or ninth nahn.

 

Basically, the implication seems to be that all the farmers in Kaladin's town as he grows up are what, in Medieval England, would be called yeomant farmers rather than villeins. In other words, they do not owe labour to their lord. The local lord in medieval period had great control over his villeins; they could not leave his lands without his position (hence, presumably, the right of travel) or marry without his permission, among a great deal of other things. However, evidence suggests that in certain areas, there were far more yeoman (particularly during the late middle ages) and few villeins.

 

Basically, the point I'm trying to make is that this city where Kaladin lives is presumably one of the better ones. The citylord is owed dues by the populace (presumably) or has his own lands worked by parshmen or such, and has some kind of law-giving actions, but none of the farmers actually are owned by the citylord. As such, they're fourth or fifth nahn. A farmer who owes labour to their citylord for a few days a week would be lower in rank. A recently freed slave is presumably a tenth nahn, and then must work his way up. A beggar is probably likewise.

 

As far as working your way up is concerned, it's probably a mixture of purchasing (proving you both have the wealth and financial prudence to be treated as a more important member of society) and action based - I'm sure a citylord might be able to raise a man from seventh to sixth, or sixth to fifth, nahn based on his actions, although he probably can't effect a much higher raise.

 

Obviously, the presence of slaves and parshmen changes things, but I think this is roughly how it works. Kaladin just lives in an affluent area, leading to few people of a low-nahn living there.

[Shardlet]

One thing I has been neglected in this discussion is grunt-level lighteyed soldiers.  It is noted in the book that a darkeye is not permitted to pick up a sword.  Are we to assume then that only the officers in the Alethi armies have swords?  In a culture so based on competitiveness and victory, it seems absurd that only a few soldiers (the officers) would have swords.  It makes much more sense to have a diversification of weaponry (i.e., archers, swordsmen, and spearmen) since each weapon has inherent advantages and disadvantages.  An archer is outstanding for ranged attacks, but is quickly overcome in close-in fighting.  A spearman has a longer reach but is less effective once an opponent gets inside that reach.  A swordsman still has an effective reach, though smaller than a spearman) but is best suited for extremely close fighting (i.e., tougher to effectively get inside their reach).

 

It seems to me that there would be enough lower dahn lighteyes to provide for units of sword-bearing grunt-level soldiers.  These units would certainly not be commanded by darkeyed lower officers (squadleader, sergeant, etc.).  Within such units these positions would obviously be occupied by lighteyes.  Therefore, I think we must conclude that such positions are not held exclusively by darkeyes.  I would assume that Dalinar's command guidlines given to Kaladin (i.e., you do not give orders to lighteyes) would be something of a norm for darkeyed officers (i.e., darkeyed captains cannot give orders to lighteyed grunts, etc.). 

 

Now that I think of it, I would not be surprised if there were lower officer ranks for lighteyes that we have not hit on yet (since we have not yet had explicit contact with such a unit?).  But, I think it would be simpler just to have a system with a more rigid chain of command structure for lower officers.  In other words, a captain can only issue orderds to soldiers directly placed under his command, etc. 

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Swords are kind of the ferrari of weapons. You can do a lot with them, but they also cost more and require a lot more training. Give a peasant a spear or an axe instead - easier to use with little experience.

[Shardbearer]

I'm pretty skeptical of the idea that there would be lighteyed grunts working alongside the darkeyed ones, especially if the darkeyed person in charge can't give orderes to them. It seems more likely that spearmen would have some kind of secondary weapon for close combat range. Or that since there are so few swordsmen that spearmen don't need to worry so much about close range, since it's basically spear vs. spear.

[Shardlet]

I recognize that the darkeyes (the peasant class) only have spears.  There is express discussion of this in the book.  Whether or not it would be prudent to arm at least some darkeyes with swords is not at issue since, at the very least, the social conventions in Alethkar absolutely prohibit it.

 

Also, I did not suggest mixed units of darkeyes (spears) and lighteyes (swords).  I am simply suggesting that there would likely be units composed of lighteyed soldiers who are armed with swords.  As to the expense of swords vs. spears, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of trees in Eastern Roshar.  Yes, there is mention of some, even in modest proximity of the warcamps.  But wood does not seem to be a plentiful resource to begin with and then add to that is must be a suitable kind of wood for the purpose of making a spear (toughness, stiffness, hardness, weight, shape).  Judging by the conservation efforts on at least Sadeas's part (bridgmen scavenging) it seems that everything is precious and most things need to be soulcast.  I suspect that much of there equipment (even including spears) is soulcast

 

If your opponent has principally spears, then it makes it all the more valuable for your army to have swords as well for a firepower advantage.  True if the other guy only has spears then you can get by with spears.  But, you can't soulcast a trained soldier.  It seems, from a strict resource stance, you'd want to provide an optimum blend of weapons in order to economize your equipment expense while minimizing loss of soldiers.

 

Obviously, this goes both ways, you would not want to have an army primarily composed of swordsman either.  It seems that the more homogenous your weaponry is, the easier it would be for your enemy to counter.  Particularly in a prolonged back-and-forth campaign. 

 

Clearly, given the fact that there is a vastly larger population of darkeyes than lighteyes and the fact that lighteyes consider the life of a lighteye to be more valuable than the life of a darkeye, there would be vastly more darkeyed spearmen than all lighteyed soldiers (including officers).  But, the value of having units of lighteyed swordsmen would be great.  And if such units exist, they would need to have low level lighteyes officers since no lighteyed soldier, but the most disciplined (like Dalinar's soldiers), would ever accept an order from a darkeye officer.

[Shardbearer]

Ok, I see where your going now. It could work. It could aslo pose tactical difficulties. Once the forces of both sides mix on the field, the swordsmen would probably need to mix right in with them to be of any use.

 

On another point, I noticed something in my reread today that I wanted to point out:

 

He [Kaladin] made way for a couple of soldiers in forest-green coats. Their brown eyes marked them as common citizens, but the white knots on their shoulders meant they were citizen officers. Squadleaders and sergeants.

 

So we have confirmation that "NCOs" are referred to as citizen officers, and that two of those ranks are squadleader and sergeant.

 

Brightlord Matal is the new captain of the bridge crews after Lamaril's execution, so we have confirmation that captain is a lighteye rank. I stick to my guns in saying that when Dalinar makes Kaladin a captain, he is already promoting him above any other darkeye in his army and taking a political risk to do it.

[bleedscarlet]

Thought I'd chime into this old discussion, because Sanderson revealed a little more today.

12) ESSH and Isilel both wanted to know:

What are the mechanics of rising or falling in dahn/nahn rank? Isilel provided these examples:

Let’s say somebody from a very low nahn, who is basically a serf, right? I mean, they don’t have the freedom of movement. So, what if a man like that rises to a sergeant and serves 25 years with distinction, does he go back to being a serf when/if he retires from the military? Would he be required to return to his village/town of origin? Can something like this be properly controlled, even? I mean, do they check travelling people’s papers?

There’s a lot of parts to this. Rising within nahns and dahns happens more easily in Roshar than rising in social status did in most societies that had similar things in our world—for instance India, or even England. To an extent, it is very easy to buy yourself up a rank. What you’ve got to remember is the very high ranks are harder to attain. By nature, the children of someone of a very high rank sometimes are shuffled down to a lower rank—until they hit a stable rank. There are certain ranks that are stable in that the children born to parents of that rank always have that rank at as well. Your example of the soldier who serves with distinction could very easily be granted a rank up. In fact, it would be very rare for a soldier to not get a level of promotion if they were a very low rank—to not be ranked up immediately. The social structure pushes people toward these stable ranks. For the serf level, if you’re able to escape your life of serfdom and go to a city, often getting a job and that sort of thing does require some measure of paperwork listing where you’re from and the like. But if you were a serf who was educated, that would be pretty easy to fake. What’s keeping most people as serfs is the fact that breaking out of it is hard, and there are much fewer of those ranks than you might assume. The right of travel is kind of an assumed thing. To be lower ranked than that, something has to have gone wrong for your ancestors and that sort of thing. There are many fewer people of that rank than there are of the slightly higher ranks that have the right of travel. It’s a natural check and balance against the nobility built into the system. There are a lot of things going on here. Movement between ranks is not as hard as you might expect.

Ditto with the lighteyes—does exemplary service raise one’s dahn?

It’s much harder for a lighteyes, but the king and the highprinces can raise someone’s dahn if they want to. But it is much harder. In the lower dahns, you can buy yourself up in rank. Or you can be appointed. For instance, if you’re appointed as a citylord, that is going to convey a certain dahn, and you could jump two or three dahns just by getting that appointment. Now, if you serve poorly, if a lot of the people who have the right of travel leave—which this doesn’t happen very often—if your town gets smaller and you’re left with this struggling city, you would be demoted a dahn, most likely. If a lot of the citizens got up and left, that would be a sign. They could take away your set status by leaving. That’s something that’s built into the right of travel. So these things happen.

If parents have different nahns/dahn’s, how is child’s position calculated? For instance, if Shallan had married 10-dahner Kabsal, what dahn would their children belong to?

The highest dahn determines the dahn of the child, though that may not match the dahn of the highest parent. For instance, there are certain dahns that aren’t conveyed to anyone except for your direct heir. The other children are a rank below. I believe that third dahn is one of the stable ranks. If you’re the king, you’re first dahn. Your kid inherits. If you have another kid who doesn’t marry a highprince, and is not a highprince, then they’re going to be third dahn, not second, because that’s the stable rank that they would slip down to, along with highlords and the children of highprinces.

Or, and another thing—what happens if a lighteyed child is born to darkeyes or even slaves? Which should happen often enough, given that male nobles seem rather promiscous. Anyway, are such people automatically of tenth dahn?

The situation is very much taken into account in these sorts of cases. Normally—if there is such a thing as normal with this—one question that’s going to come up is are they heterochromatic. Because you can end up with one eye of each color, both eyes light, or both eyes dark. That’s going to influence it a lot, what happens here. Do you have any heirs? Was your child born lighteyed? This sort of thing is treated the same way that a lot of societies treated illegitimate children. The question of, do I need this person as an heir? Are they born darkeyed? Can I shuffle them off somewhere? Set them up, declare them to be this certain rank. Are you high enough rank to do that? Are you tenth dahn yourself? What happens with all of these things? There’s no single answer to that. The most common thing that’s probably going to happen is that they are born heterochromatic. Then you’re in this weird place where you’re probably declared to be tenth dahn, but you may have way more power and authority than that if one parent is of a very high dahn, just as a bastard child in a royal line would be treated in our world.

 

 

from tor blog today: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/06/brandon-sanderson-answers-your-questions-about-the-way-of-kings

[Kurkistan]

A bit of a necro, but one I approve of because it directly answers at least some of the questions at hand and anyone following this thread from the good old days will certainly appreciate the answer.

[Farnsworth]

I'm almost certain that there are ten Nahns, for two reasons:

1: There are 10 heralds, ten soulcast substances, etc. Ten seems to be a powerful number here, so I would be very surprised if there are only 10 Nahns.

2: Farmers are the second highest calling, so shouldn't it be a very high Nahn? I would imagine that it would not only be the beggars and whores who were lower than the farmers, but almost everybody.