Stone shamans always watching

[soulcastJam]

Szeth said that if he were to die the Stone Shamans would come to collect his blade from whoever killed him.  How would they know?  Clearly they are always watching Szeth, which begs the question of how?  Do they have a web of spies or does one of the surges granted by the honorblades give the ability of far-sight?  Or maybe this is a power entirely separate that the stone shamans employ.  Either way, I would guess they are aware that Szeth lost his blade, and possibly that he is coming for them.

[RawToast225]

Maybe one of the Shamans went to the Nightwatcher at the others request and asked for the ability to see everything that happened on Roshar or something similar. I won't pretend to know what the bane would be.

[Purelake Earthquake]

My bet is it's something to do with his oathstone.  Like maybe he's bound to it, and the Shaman's can tell when the bond is broken through his death or something.  There's definitely something going on with magic rocks over there in Shinovar.

[Twenty@20]

I doubt the Shaman has a specific Truthless tracking mechanism. They would expect to eventually get the news in the event of Szeth's death- he is a notorious worldwide assassin after all. Or for that matter any Truthless with any Honorblade would gain some sort of reputation outside Shinovar. The person who would have killed him would become famous too and it would be easy enough to get information about him. Of course the entire chain if event would get delayed, depending on the degree of seclusion the Shaman maintains but it is only a matter of time.

As it happened, I expect the Shaman to hear that Kaladin/Dalinar duo has possession of the Honorblade through Szeth himself.

The oathstone is, I think, more of a cultural/ religious thing rather than anything magical.

[Mimiddle04]

As it happened, I expect the Shaman to hear that Kaladin/Dalinar duo has possession of the Honorblade through Szeth himself.

 

At the end of WoR Szeth made it sound like he had some revenge to take on them, not that he wanted to make sure they got back their sword.

[Twenty@20]

At the end of WoR Szeth made it sound like he had some revenge to take on them, not that he wanted to make sure they got back their sword.

No, I didn't say that Szeth would help the Shamans to recover the Honorblade. All I was trying to imply was that when Szeth has his epic confrontation with the Shamans he will let it slip that, he was defeated by a Radiant in Dalinar's army and from that the Shamans will deduce that Dalinar has the Honorblade.

[Mimiddle04]

No, I didn't say that Szeth would help the Shamans to recover the Honorblade. All I was trying to imply was that when Szeth has his epic confrontation with the Shamans he will let it slip that, he was defeated by a Radiant in Dalinar's army and from that the Shamans will deduce that Dalinar has the Honorblade.

 

Got ya.  That makes sense.  I'm under the impression none of them will be alive to retrieve it though by the time Szeth-Crazy-chull-Vallano... I mean Szeth-son-son-Vallano is done with them.

[king of nowhere]

I have the impression that the shamans ddo not know anything about what happens to szeth, but they will have a way to just return the blade to them. like, say, a second binding. So that the shamans are bonded to the blade, but they can allow szeth to also bond it, but when szeth dies the bond reverts back to the shamans immediately. That's my opinion.

[Purelake Earthquake]

It would be entirely possible for Szeth to die quietly, if he was taken out when he was owned by that minor gang in WoK or before the whole big assassin in white deal no one would have noticed.  He'd have to be killed by someone really powerful, like a Herald or Worldhopper, but it could happen.

As for the truthless oathstone, I would be really surprised if it was not magic.  The regular oathstones for soldiers and stuff might just be less powerful versions, or just plain rocks.  First stones are just mentioned so much, stone shamans, stone's unhallowed, stonewards, Talenel Stonesinew.  The Shinovar religion is basically centered around stones, and in Sanderson's books religions and cultures are often heavily influenced by the magic.  A place as important to the magical events as Shinovar, I would think would have culture and religion based around the magic.  Also the other word in oathstone, oath, is important too, Oathpact, Oathgate.  It's basically the whole idea behind one of the shards.  The main magic system on Roshar we know about, is all about binding things.  An oath is another form of binding, which is why the word occurs a lot.  So maybe the oath stone binds Szeth to his position.  A truthless has to give his all to ensure his survival when he wants to die.  Maybe Szeth is that stone-willed, but I doubt the stone shamans would rely on that for all potential truthless.  We saw a similar scenario in Mistborn, and there was certainly some compulsion going on there.  When Szeth finds out that the stone shamans were wrong then there would nothing binding him to his oath anymore.

[Mimiddle04]

So maybe the oath stone binds Szeth to his position.  A truthless has to give his all to ensure his survival when he wants to die.  Maybe Szeth is that stone-willed, but I doubt the stone shamans would rely on that for all potential truthless.  When Szeth finds out that the stone shamans were wrong then there would nothing binding him to his oath anymore.

 

His convo with Nalan at the end of WoR indicates he is holding himself to his Oaths and not some magical compulsion.  Also I think at the beginning of WoK he thinks to himself that he could let Gavilar kill him but it wouldn't be holding to his oath.

 

To me it makes more sense that the Shamans send Truthless into the world thinking they'll let themselves die rather than go through the horrible things they could be made to do.  I feel like it makes sense because unless Szeth is the first ever truthless, there would be other instances around Roshar of people like him throughout history and everyone wouldn't be so surprised when he showed up.

 

One reason Szeth would be the only Surgebinding Truthless, I just thought of, might be that the punishment fits the crime in their culture.  So because he supposedly lied about Radiants returning the Shamans made him a Surgebinder.

[Twenty@20]

Reading Szeth's PoVs I personally never got the impression that he was under any magical compulsion or mind control. He seemed to be in full control of his thoughts while he fulfilled his orders. Contrast this with Marsh's PoVs where we clearly get to see him being mind-controlled.

Moreover, the fact that Szeth was able to flee without completing his orders after the first time he encountered Kaladin indicates that he is not magically controlled.

If Szeth was under magical compulsion of the oathstone then there was no need for Taravangian to be afraid of him, when they met in Jah Keved.

“Have I not been faithful?” Szeth shouted, finally looking up to face the sun. His voice echoed against the mountains and their spirit-souls. “Have I not obeyed, kept my oath? Have I not done as you demanded of me?”

This quote indicates Szeth chose to obey, he chose to honor his oath. There was no compulsion other than religious ones involved. At least that is how I understood it. I would like to hear your interpretation too.

EDIT

Re: regarding collecting Honorblade. Even if Szeth was killed quietly, I believe it would be difficult to keep an Honorblade inconspicuous for long. Sooner or later, the Shamans would hear about a previously unknown Shardblade with mysterious powers. Then it would be only a matter of tracking it down.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Purelake Earthquake]

The Szeth compulsion is its own can of worms. Regardless, I doubt something that's a compound word of two magically important terms would be just a rock.

As for the compulsion, it wouldn't be as overt as say WoT or that character in Mistborn. I don't have any of those scenes on hand. It would work through his sense of honor, it makes him not willing to break his oaths.

I have one idea about what makes Szeth a truthless. Anyone who ever picks up a weapon has to be a soldier for the rest of their life. So, maybe Szeth picks up a honorblade, making him a truthless. Maybe he picks it up because he thinks that the radiants are returning.

[Purelake Earthquake]

Why he fleed after encountering Kaladin would be because he finds out he was right, which would mean the foundation of his oaths was wrong giving them no weight.

Edit: The hypothetical person who kills Szeth could take the blade and never use it or bury it under the seafloor or take it to another planet.  There are plenty of people who might want to do that.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Purelake Earthquake

[Zea mays]

My guess would be that the Shaman holding the Truthwatcher blade and the Shaman bearing the Elsecaller Blade would cooperate to locate Szeth's sword after he died.

If they had been constantly watching him all along - they had a moral responsibility to intervene.

[Pathfinder]

I have the impression that the shamans ddo not know anything about what happens to szeth, but they will have a way to just return the blade to them. like, say, a second binding. So that the shamans are bonded to the blade, but they can allow szeth to also bond it, but when szeth dies the bond reverts back to the shamans immediately. That's my opinion.

Only thing is when Szeth died, it DIDN'T immediately revert back to them to summon to their side. Kal picked it up and held onto it. It never vanished. 

[Patrick Star]

There's definitely something going on with magic rocks over there in Shinovar.

 

Too bad I already beat them to it!

 

[Purelake Earthquake]

It's a rock, his name is boulder.

[dvoraen]

Only thing is when Szeth died, it DIDN'T immediately revert back to them to summon to their side. Kal picked it up and held onto it. It never vanished. 

Because of this point, I've wondered about the Stone Shamanate and Szeth's certainty they'd reclaim the Blade:

 

- I think it's safe to say that at least one or two of them (if not all of them) would be dispatched with the Honorblades bound to them for the purposes of retrieving the other.  In other words, guarantee certainty of its return to Shinovar.  At least one of the Blades left behind* grants access to Transportation, so Elsecalling across the continent seems plausible, or at least increases the likelihood of a fairly speedy recovery.

- Secondly, how would they even know it was relinquished from the previous owner in the first place?  I've wondered if the Shin have access to some of the (implied to exist) advanced fabrials that allow them to track an individual.  After all, Nalan was able to find Szeth when Kaladin speared him through, plus he explicitly uses the words "this attracted me", as if it were perceivable in some manner, to say nothing of the fabrials he uses personally.  Who is to say that the Stone Shamanate doesn't have access to similar abilities to learn of these types of events?

 

* We don't know which specific Blade is missing aside from the Windrunner Honorblade.  Whoever came for the other one didn't necessarily take the one they originally had.

[Arondell]

At this point I'm not even sure if recovering the blade will even be on their top ten list of things to do.  Given that it is going to be obvious to the Shin that the leadership made someone a truthless in error I think the leaders of the Shin are going to have more immediate problems to deal with.  The Everstorm has arrived and with it the return of the void bringers.  Whether they know it or not Szeth will shortly be back bringing some well deserved justice to the Shin leaders as well.

 

Even if they know Szeth is no longer in possession of the honor blade and where the blade is how are they going to feel about having to reclaim the blade from an organization that they claimed no longer existed and would never return?

 

It wouldn't surprise me if it will be a race between the shin people or Szeth who kills off the leaders first for being so horribly, unforgivably, wrong.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Arondell

[Sasukerinnegan]

The Shinovar definitely have to have some sort of warning system in place if the Honorblade changes hands. If you think about it, the Shin are repeatedly described as a xenophobic people due to their reluctance to walk on stone. And they seem to have limited contact with the outside world. Since Urithiru's gates are closed, it has no contact whatsoever with the outside world. So they should have some sort of warning system to warn them of the loss of a Honorblade. I'm surprised they "punished" Szeth with being a truthless wielding a Honorblade. If Szeth hadn't been so insistent on upholding his oaths, he could easily have escaped. Then again nothing about the Shin makes sense. If you think about it, the Shin have the only real proof of the existence of the Heralds and by extension, the Almighty. Still, to the best of our knowledge, there is no worship of Honor in Shinovar......odd?

[Arondell]

 If you think about it, the Shin have the only real proof of the existence of the Heralds and by extension, the Almighty. Still, to the best of our knowledge, there is no worship of Honor in Shinovar......odd?

 

It was my distinct impression that the Shin worship Cultivation.  The glimpses we have had of their society certainly support that at least.  Farms and farmers are considered holy.  Warriors are the lowest status.  Jasnah actually commented that those in western lands worshiped Cultivation.

[Pathfinder]

I am definitely on board with the warning system. I am forgetting a lot of names, but didn't the merchant that was showing his protege around, have a fabrial that could notify the user of individuals approaching in a radius? What if the stone shamans have access to more advanced fabrials left over from the time of the heralds, that could track individuals as many people here posit? 

[Patrick Star]

It's a rock, his name is boulder.

 

It's Rocky!  He's got nerves of steel.

 

Anyways, what if the Stone Shamans use the the truthwatcher blade to find it?  The surge of illumination could allow them to track where it is.

[Secret Ardent Man]

I'm interested to see how the Stone Shamans who attempt to retrieve the Honorblade react to the revelation that surgebinders are returning. If they attack Dalinar, Shallan, and Renarin in Urithiru then they will be faced with definitive proof that someone is surgebinding without the aid of an Honorblade (since they know that of the 9 on Roshar only 2--Szeth's and one other--are not in the Stone Shamans' possession. I wonder if they will react like Szeth did when he first encountered a glowing Kaladin. 

 

Will they turn on Shin society as well? 

[Moogle]

I am definitely on board with the warning system. I am forgetting a lot of names, but didn't the merchant that was showing his protege around, have a fabrial that could notify the user of individuals approaching in a radius? What if the stone shamans have access to more advanced fabrials left over from the time of the heralds, that could track individuals as many people here posit? 

 

Every fabrial we see from the old days is a variation on a Surge, whereas the newer fabrials with captured spren seem capable of doing far more varied things. I don't think the Radiants had any tracking fabrials like they've made nowadays.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Ookla the Infinite