Invesiture Mass Production

[SteelBagel]

So, as a thought experiment, lets say you want to create the strongest invested army possible. You can start in any era on any planet, have unlimited uninvested materials, and 1000 completely loyal members of the local population(who have powers at the rate you'd expect for that group.) You have 100 years with these resources to produce the strongest possible army, ideally one which can continue to grow after the 100 years are up. How do you do it? No ethical concerns. 

Personally, I think farming people for their breaths is the best route. Hemalurgy may produce stronger soldiers faster, but the ceiling is much lower since you can't stack too many spikes before your army becomes ruin's army. 

[Ascended Grubberfly He/Him]

1 hour ago, SteelBagel said:

So, as a thought experiment, lets say you want to create the strongest invested army possible. You can start in any era on any planet, have unlimited uninvested materials, and 1000 completely loyal members of the local population(who have powers at the rate you'd expect for that group.) You have 100 years with these resources to produce the strongest possible army, ideally one which can continue to grow after the 100 years are up. How do you do it? No ethical concerns. 

Personally, I think farming people for their breaths is the best route. Hemalurgy may produce stronger soldiers faster, but the ceiling is much lower since you can't stack too many spikes before your army becomes ruin's army. 

Ah, more arguments about soldiers! (I jest, I jest)

Hear me out: Elantrian Singers! 
I bet scholarform or nimble fork would ease up the aon learning curve, and if we knew the exact mechanics to make aons work off world it would work even better.

And as we learned from Venli in RoW, we might even be able to use Dor to power the Surges, so that opens another way to make super soldiers.

EDIT: I guess I should respond to @SteelBagel’s idea. Farming breaths could be a good idea, making an army of Phantoms was tossed around, and imagine if they had Awakened Blades.

 

Edited July 15 by Ascended Grubberfly

[Frustration]

Arelon.

It might take a second but given enough time one of my guys would become an Elantrian, and then they can just invite everyone else in, and at that point I have an army.

45 minutes ago, Ascended Grubberfly said:

Ah, more arguments about soldiers! (I jest, I jest)

Hear me out: Elantrian Singers! 
I bet scholarform or nimble fork would ease up the aon learning curve, and if we knew the exact mechanics to make aons work off world it would work even better.

And as we learned from Venli in RoW, we might even be able to use Dor to power the Surges, so that opens another way to make super soldiers.

EDIT: I guess I should respond to @SteelBagel’s idea. Farming breaths could be a good idea, making an army of Phantoms was tossed around, and imagine if they had Awakened Blades.

 

How do you connect the Singers to Arelon so that they can be taken by the Shaod?

[Ascended Grubberfly He/Him]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Arelon.

It might take a second but given enough time one of my guys would become an Elantrian, and then they can just invite everyone else in, and at that point I have an army.

How do you connect the Singers to Arelon so that they can be taken by the Shaod?

They won’t, but their kids will. I’d prefer to keep the singer genetics pure in case the benefits decline with interbreeding, so maybe have one group marry in and those kids can marry back into the original group of singers.

[BinarySecond]

Hear me out. Sho Del and Elantrians. 

4 hands, twice the efficacy with drawing Aons.

 

Or worse - Sleepless Elantrians, somehow. Each one drawing it's own line - Winged hordelings to form the complex shapes rapidly.

[Through the Living Hopper He/Him]

3 hours ago, BinarySecond said:

Hear me out. Sho Del and Elantrians. 

4 hands, twice the efficacy with drawing Aons.

 

Or worse - Sleepless Elantrians, somehow. Each one drawing it's own line - Winged hordelings to form the complex shapes rapidly.

You, my good man, are a genius 

[The White Drake]

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

Arelon.

It might take a second but given enough time one of my guys would become an Elantrian, and then they can just invite everyone else in, and at that point I have an army.

Hoid says it takes an invite from a particular group, not just any Elantrian.

The limitations in this scenario are quite notable. 

Since we get unlimited ordinary stuff, but only 1,000 random people, I think the era matters a ton. Take me to Scadrial, space age. Even without the Invested bits, they still have futuristic tech, and cloning is usable to grow the numbers fast- exponentially even. (Plus I can still sell some of my unlimited non Invested materials for Invested Scadrial stuff). Near-infinite troops with unlimited supplies and top tier technology (including Ralkalest). The clones are also subjects for Hemalurgy. I’d wager this force against any of the others proposed thus far with total confidence.

Edited July 15 by The White Drake

[Frustration]

13 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

Hoid says it takes an invite from a particular group, not just any Elantrian.

He never says it couldn't be any Elantrian, and the implication is quite clear that the group is referring to is Elantrians as he said he needed an invite in and had been trying to join them for a long time.

[The White Drake]

41 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He never says it couldn't be any Elantrian, and the implication is quite clear that the group is referring to is Elantrians as he said he needed an invite in and had been trying to join them for a long time.

The implication is very clear it’s not just any Elantrian. “An invite from a member of an exclusive group, of which she was one.” If he’d just meant ‘any Elantrian’ (not that exclusive) he’d have said so, and wouldn’t have needed to get cursed for a bet on a backwater world or seek out a malicious, cruel being.

Before we have a repeat of last time, let me cut to the chase. Do you have any proof that he meant any Elantrian, or do you just choose to believe it? If the latter, bar WoB, I don’t think either of us can make useful arguments.

Edit: the most relevant WoB is clear as mud…

u/Lobologo3

How did Hoid get Elantrian powers and access to the AonDor simply through an invite by Riina?

Brandon Sanderson

Just a little help for those in this one: new Hoid-centered epilogue to the 10th anniversary Elantrisfrom ten or so years ago is relevant here. It's not going to tell you the specifics, I'm afraid, but what happened here should be seen in the context of that scene.

 

Does imply it’s not as simple as it looks though.

Edit 2: I thought I’d seen a WoB like this…

Questioner

Why can't they just increase their numbers. Because their numbers increase over time?

Brandon Sanderson

...The number of Elantrians had certain thresholds and upper limits, that I haven't described in the books yet.

Edited July 15 by The White Drake

[Frustration]

On 7/15/2026 at 9:16 AM, The White Drake said:

Before we have a repeat of last time, let me cut to the chase. Do you have any proof that he meant any Elantrian, or do you just choose to believe it? 

Yes I do and it's not arguable

On 7/15/2026 at 9:16 AM, The White Drake said:

The implication is very clear it’s not just any Elantrian. “An invite from a member of an exclusive group, of which she was one.” If he’d just meant ‘any Elantrian’ (not that exclusive) he’d have said so, and wouldn’t have needed to get cursed for a bet on a backwater world or seek out a malicious, cruel being.

Considering that the word Elantrian never appears in the text, he did as well as he could.

 

Quote:

Quote

"Tress swallowed. To her, the woman looked deific. It was the glowing skin. Really helps you land a good first impression. I've been envious of that look for centuries now, and have been aiming to adopt it.

In fact, that is what this had all been about." Tress I lost the page

 

"Turns out that to get this particular set of powers to work, you couldn't simple fake Connection. You needed an invitation and adoption into a very select group. My only chance had been to find one smart enough to be a member of the group, stupid enough for me to toy with, and sadistic enough to trade membership for the opportunity to see me cursed." Tress pages 467-468

Hoid specifically wanted to become a member of the same group that needed to extend the invitation. That membership being specifically related to having glowing skin.

[The White Drake]

30 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yes I do and it's not arguable

It really is. Your arguments can be solid without being 'inarguable' or 'proven'.

34 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Considering that the word Elantrian never appears in the text, he did as well as he could.

 

Quote:

Hoid specifically wanted to become a member of the same group that needed to extend the invitation. That membership being specifically related to having glowing skin.

You make a good point, but it doesn't matter for what you want.

On 7/15/2026 at 10:16 AM, The White Drake said:

Questioner

Why can't they just increase their numbers. Because their numbers increase over time?

Brandon Sanderson

...The number of Elantrians had certain thresholds and upper limits, that I haven't described in the books yet.

 

 

You can't spam invites to make an army. This is part of a WoB specifically asking why they hadn't taken over the planet (the rest wasn't relevant to the conversation, but it's from November 17, 2017 if you want to check it out). While we may not know the exact limits, we know they're there, and strong enough that Brandon gives them as a reason for why, specifically, Elantrians can't just go and make more Elantrians as you suggest.

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

You can't spam invites to make an army. This is part of a WoB specifically asking why they hadn't taken over the planet (the rest wasn't relevant to the conversation, but it's from November 17, 2017 if you want to check it out). While we may not know the exact limits, we know they're there, and strong enough that Brandon gives them as a reason for why, specifically, Elantrians can't just go and make more Elantrians as you suggest.

You could probably just kill all the other Elantrians as soon as you have a single loyal one if you created a very powerful Aon that targeted all other Elantrians at once.

Barring that, assassinating them may be plausible with enough regular loyal people and the element of surprise. 

[The White Drake]

8 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

You could probably just kill all the other Elantrians as soon as you have a single loyal one if you created a very powerful Aon that targeted all other Elantrians at once.

Barring that, assassinating them may be plausible with enough regular loyal people and the element of surprise. 

The whole reason they're so desirable is they're insanely powerful if you know what you're doing. Is there any particular reason your Elantrians would get to do things like Aon-stack to nigh immortality and city-kill with Aons while all the other, far more numerous and equally powerful Elantrians just stand around and die off? Anything your Elantrians can do the others should be able to as well, so I don't see a small army of mortals and handful of Elantrians murdering the entire city. If they could, Elantrians wouldn't be so valuable.

[Mystfall He/Him]

6 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

The whole reason they're so desirable is they're insanely powerful if you know what you're doing. Is there any particular reason your Elantrians would get to do things like Aon-stack to nigh immortality and city-kill with Aons while all the other, far more numerous and equally powerful Elantrians just stand around and die off? Anything your Elantrians can do the others should be able to as well, so I don't see a small army of mortals and handful of Elantrians murdering the entire city. If they could, Elantrians wouldn't be so valuable.

The other route is to find out what’s limiting the amount of elantrians and try to expand that(it’s probably the amount of Dor in the cognitive realm around Arelon though, and there’s not too much you can do about that)

[The White Drake]

10 minutes ago, Mystfall said:

The other route is to find out what’s limiting the amount of elantrians and try to expand that(it’s probably the amount of Dor in the cognitive realm around Arelon though, and there’s not too much you can do about that)

I doubt that's what it is, personally, but since we don't know, it's a bit of a moot point to pursue. All we know is that those limits haven't already been circumvented by the Elantrians, so you'd be trying for a technological advance of unknown difficultly.

[Mystfall He/Him]

6 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

I doubt that's what it is, personally, but since we don't know, it's a bit of a moot point to pursue. All we know is that those limits haven't already been circumvented by the Elantrians, so you'd be trying for a technological advance of unknown difficultly.

Only other thing I can think of it being is the size of the Aon Rao

But yeah, we don’t know what it is. Or how hard it’d be to do, and we haven’t got a lot about it so not too much point to theorize other than for fun.

And in that case, the top of my head says that fullborn are the best option. Since the original prompt doesn’t say when we’d be dropped into the planet, as long as it’s before Rashek’s ascension, travel to the well, take a few bars of Lerasium, then find some full feruchemists and make some Fullborn. People having kids will naturally grow your army. 

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

You can't spam invites to make an army. This is part of a WoB specifically asking why they hadn't taken over the planet (the rest wasn't relevant to the conversation, but it's from November 17, 2017 if you want to check it out). While we may not know the exact limits, we know they're there, and strong enough that Brandon gives them as a reason for why, specifically, Elantrians can't just go and make more Elantrians as you suggest.

A limit.

From the book Elantris we know that the city was home to tens of thousands and that the population of the city was mostly Elantrians. That's a pretty high limit.

[The White Drake]

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

A limit.

From the book Elantris we know that the city was home to tens of thousands and that the population of the city was mostly Elantrians. That's a pretty high limit.

I don't believe the population was ever stated. I tried to find info on how many Elantrians there were already and came up empty. Can you provide your source?
(Anyhow, that would mean there's already a ton of people already Elantrians filling up that limit. And again, this, was specifically in the context of 'they can't just go grow their numbers' as a reason they didn't conquer the world in particular. Which is exactly what you want to do.)

24 minutes ago, Mystfall said:

And in that case, the top of my head says that fullborn are the best option. Since the original prompt doesn’t say when we’d be dropped into the planet, as long as it’s before Rashek’s ascension, travel to the well, take a few bars of Lerasium, then find some full feruchemists and make some Fullborn. People having kids will naturally grow your army. 

OP said any Era, so presumably you get to pick.

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

The whole reason they're so desirable is they're insanely powerful if you know what you're doing. Is there any particular reason your Elantrians would get to do things like Aon-stack to nigh immortality and city-kill with Aons while all the other, far more numerous and equally powerful Elantrians just stand around and die off? Anything your Elantrians can do the others should be able to as well, so I don't see a small army of mortals and handful of Elantrians murdering the entire city. If they could, Elantrians wouldn't be so valuable.

The other Elantrians are highly Invested, but no specific, automatic defenses have been stated before. That doesn't mean they don't exist, but at the moment I believe an Elantrian should be able to affect another Elantrian with AonDor if they juice it up with the correct modifiers.

If this is true, then I think the only real protection for an Elantrian against a powerful killing Aon that tracks them down would be to specifically ward against it (or teleport, so make the killing Aon quick or quiet). The city of Elantris seems mostly peaceful and cooperative, so I don't think they'd have such defenses immediately in place (not to mention it appears that very few are overly competent at AonDor).

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/133-elantris-annotations/#e1938

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Eight

The economy of Arelon is one of the interesting features of this book. Even still, I'm not certain if I made things a little too odd here. The idea of nobility being tied directly to money is described so often by the characters that I worry that readers will think the system too foolish to have arisen. However, I think that by establishing the king as a former merchant—and by pointing out how the system was created quickly, to fill the void after the fall of Elantris—I manage to keep the economic and social situation in Arelon within the realm of possibility.

I think that too often fantasy writers are content with simply throwing in a slightly-original spin on magic—ignoring the fact that their cultures, governments, and religions are derivative. There is this idea of the "general" fantasy world, and writers draw upon it. However, I think an interesting cultural element can be just as fascinating—and as useful to the plot—as an interesting magic system. In the best cases, the two are inter-woven, like what one can find in brilliant genre books like Dune.

Of course, the strange economic/governmental system of the book is only a descendant of another strange economic/governmental system. Sarene and Lukel discuss a few of the problems presented by having a race of people who can create whatever they want through use of magic. I don't get to deal with that aspect of AonDor very much in this particular book, since the novel is set during a time when the magic of Elantris doesn't work. However, there are a lot of interesting ramifications AonDor would present for a book set during Elantris' heyday. What good is gold if someone can create it from nothing? In fact, what good is a monetary system at all when everyone can have as much food as they want? What need is there for invention or ingenuity in the face of a group of people who can re-create any good, no matter how complex, with a mere flick of the magical wrist?

The truth behind the Elantrian magical abilities is far more limited than Sarene or Lukel acknowledge in this chapter. If one were to go back fifteen years, one would find that the Elantrians who had the skill to fabricate complex materials "out of nothing" were actually quite rare.

As we learn later in the book, AonDor is a very complicated, difficult skill to master. As I was writing this book, I imagined the complicated Aons that Raoden eventually learns how to draw being only springboards to massive equations that could take weeks to plan out and write. Fabricating something very complex would require a great deal of detail in the AonDor recipe.

Even still, I think the tension between the Elantrians and the merchants is a natural outgrowth of this situation.

 

Perhaps a more specific plan could be to edit Elantris itself to do the genocide. Raoden was able to repair/edit Elantris with a single well-placed Aon, so I think it's possible if your Elantrian is sneaky and spends time learning and preparing beforehand. 

[The White Drake]

3 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

The other Elantrians are highly Invested, but no specific, automatic defenses have been stated before. That doesn't mean they don't exist, but at the moment I believe an Elantrian should be able to affect another Elantrian with AonDor if they juice it up with the correct modifiers.

If this is true, then I think the only real protection for an Elantrian against a powerful killing Aon that tracks them down would be to specifically ward against it (or teleport, so make the killing Aon quick or quiet). The city of Elantris seems mostly peaceful and cooperative, so I don't think they'd have such defenses immediately in place (not to mention it appears that very few are overly competent at AonDor).

  Reveal hidden contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/133-elantris-annotations/#e1938

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Eight

The economy of Arelon is one of the interesting features of this book. Even still, I'm not certain if I made things a little too odd here. The idea of nobility being tied directly to money is described so often by the characters that I worry that readers will think the system too foolish to have arisen. However, I think that by establishing the king as a former merchant—and by pointing out how the system was created quickly, to fill the void after the fall of Elantris—I manage to keep the economic and social situation in Arelon within the realm of possibility.

I think that too often fantasy writers are content with simply throwing in a slightly-original spin on magic—ignoring the fact that their cultures, governments, and religions are derivative. There is this idea of the "general" fantasy world, and writers draw upon it. However, I think an interesting cultural element can be just as fascinating—and as useful to the plot—as an interesting magic system. In the best cases, the two are inter-woven, like what one can find in brilliant genre books like Dune.

Of course, the strange economic/governmental system of the book is only a descendant of another strange economic/governmental system. Sarene and Lukel discuss a few of the problems presented by having a race of people who can create whatever they want through use of magic. I don't get to deal with that aspect of AonDor very much in this particular book, since the novel is set during a time when the magic of Elantris doesn't work. However, there are a lot of interesting ramifications AonDor would present for a book set during Elantris' heyday. What good is gold if someone can create it from nothing? In fact, what good is a monetary system at all when everyone can have as much food as they want? What need is there for invention or ingenuity in the face of a group of people who can re-create any good, no matter how complex, with a mere flick of the magical wrist?

The truth behind the Elantrian magical abilities is far more limited than Sarene or Lukel acknowledge in this chapter. If one were to go back fifteen years, one would find that the Elantrians who had the skill to fabricate complex materials "out of nothing" were actually quite rare.

As we learn later in the book, AonDor is a very complicated, difficult skill to master. As I was writing this book, I imagined the complicated Aons that Raoden eventually learns how to draw being only springboards to massive equations that could take weeks to plan out and write. Fabricating something very complex would require a great deal of detail in the AonDor recipe.

Even still, I think the tension between the Elantrians and the merchants is a natural outgrowth of this situation.

 

Perhaps a more specific plan could be to edit Elantris itself to do the genocide. Raoden was able to repair/edit Elantris with a single well-placed Aon, so I think it's possible if your Elantrian is sneaky and spends time learning and preparing beforehand. 

I simply have doubts one or two Elantrians will be able to wipe out the whole city and nobody will have any countermeasures. Seems like the Alcatraz effect in play.

On another note, that text you provided talking about the limits of the Elantrians casts doubt on the 'insta-win anything' part of their value. If very few can even make something mundane and complex with their magic, how many are going to be able to make immortality layers or city-killing Aons? It implies at this point in time, AonDor hasn't advanced that far. It seems much talk I hear about Elantrian power is based largely on a our own, out of universe understanding of Aons, positing theoreticals possible with AonDor, while the actual technical skills to execute such plans are lacking in the Elantris Era.

That's not a issue though- 'any Era' includes a time when they have advanced AonDor a lot. Of course, who knows what defenses other Elantrians have around during that Era.

[Trusk'our he/him]

55 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

I simply have doubts one or two Elantrians will be able to wipe out the whole city and nobody will have any countermeasures. Seems like the Alcatraz effect in play.

Honestly, fair enough concern. It's probably a lot harder than I argue for. I just think it's possible with the right Aon equation. 

56 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

On another note, that text you provided talking about the limits of the Elantrians casts doubt on the 'insta-win anything' part of their value. If very few can even make something mundane and complex with their magic, how many are going to be able to make immortality layers or city-killing Aons? It implies at this point in time, AonDor hasn't advanced that far. It seems much talk I hear about Elantrian power is based largely on a our own, out of universe understanding of Aons, positing theoreticals possible with AonDor, while the actual technical skills to execute such plans are lacking in the Elantris Era.

That's not a issue though- 'any Era' includes a time when they have advanced AonDor a lot. Of course, who knows what defenses other Elantrians have around during that Era.

Yeah, it's pretty easy to overestimate the Elantrians' practical abilities I suppose. 

I think it stems in large part from the fact that it's a silver bullet of sorts. AonDor can technically do nearly anything possible in the Cosmere, which ironically I think limits our creativity for it.

That's one of the reasons the Metallic Arts are way more fun imo- the limitations and hard rules are the fun part.

[The White Drake]

13 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Honestly, fair enough concern. It's probably a lot harder than I argue for. I just think it's possible with the right Aon equation. 

Yeah, it's pretty easy to overestimate the Elantrians' practical abilities I suppose. 

I think it stems in large part from the fact that it's a silver bullet of sorts. AonDor can technically do nearly anything possible in the Cosmere, which ironically I think limits our creativity for it.

That's one of the reasons the Metallic Arts are way more fun imo- the limitations and hard rules are the fun part.

Exactly. AonDor is a science. Use of it will advance over time. Putting immortality layers and army killers in topics like these is the equivalent of space age tech.