Thoughts on Yumi and the Nightmare Painter (Spoilers)

[NameIess]

Had to make this one before @Ironwill2112 could get to it. (And hopefully the poll works out well, because it has been a while since I’ve made one and I’m doing it on mobile)

So, Yumi and the Nightmare Painter. The best secret project, and my favorite non-Stormlight book that Brandon Sanderson has written. Why? Well despite this book having moments that make me cringe extremely hard (Yumi’s first meeting with Akane, I’m looking at you) Yumi and Painter’s relationship hits hard for me, and the book’s high moments are incredibly strong. Yumi and Painter at the fair, Painter protecting Yumi from the stable nightmare, and the penultimate scene of Painter painting Yumi are all incredible, emotionally resonant scenes.

I don’t want this to be too long, though there’s a lot more I could talk about, but I’ll add this: despite what Hoid might think about the matter, this book getting a happy ending makes it a better story.

[Myst He/Him]

11 minutes ago, NameIess said:

Had to make this one before @Ironwill2112 could get to it. (And hopefully the poll works out well, because it has been a while since I’ve made one and I’m doing it on mobile)

So, Yumi and the Nightmare Painter. The best secret project, and my favorite non-Stormlight book that Brandon Sanderson has written. Why? Well despite this book having moments that make me cringe extremely hard (Yumi’s first meeting with Akane, I’m looking at you) Yumi and Painter’s relationship hits hard for me, and the book’s high moments are incredibly strong. Yumi and Painter at the fair, Painter protecting Yumi from the stable nightmare, and the penultimate scene of Painter painting Yumi are all incredible, emotionally resonant scenes.

I don’t want this to be too long, though there’s a lot more I could talk about, but I’ll add this: despite what Hoid might think about the matter, this book getting a happy ending makes it a better story.

I absolutely love it. I’m generally against romance or romance adjacent stuff(the fact that I consider Yumi to be romance adjacent should tell you that) but I thought it was natural. And it made sense. The moments the two shared were amazing.

I personally would rate this above Stormlight 3, so top 5, but yeah. It’s amazing.

I absolutely loved Design’s personality too.

I could go on and on. I need to reread it anyways. But it’s amazing 

[Frustration]

It was probably my second favorite secret project.

Despite a couple of flaws it was really solid.

I'd probably rank it above WaT but below TSM.

[Treamayne]

For me, least favorite of the Cosmere Secret Projects (but still better than Frugal Wizard). 

Not bad, per se (on the scope of books in general), but the ending ruined it for me. Granted, I have not yet done a re-read. 

My Reactions Post

This post explains better than I could, why the ending did not work for me. Excerpt:

On 7/26/2023 at 8:03 AM, Elegy said:

[T]he fact that the book tries to make the reader feel the sad ending without commiting to it. Which feels like a major fake-out.

<snip>

This one was the worst of all, because it made me feel the deeply emotionally resonant ending that the book could have had. That ending would have been such a stand-out in his work, people would talk about it all the time. But he dropped it for the "everyone's happy, also they take over the noodle shop", which feels like fan fiction, or a meme ending, to the point that I think it's possbible that Hoid just made it up on the fly because everyone in the audience was crying and the tragic ending might be what actually happened, because it felt like such an odd decision.

<snip>

(EDIT: To clarify, the ending would have been better if he hadn't made it seem like he wanted to commit to the sad ending in the first place. Having a happy ending for this story is fine. It's the fact that he wanted the reader to believe that the sad ending had already happened just to undo it that makes me mad. If he hadn't done that, I would have happily gone along with the happy ending, even though it wouldn't have been nearly as emotionally resonant to me as the one he almost did. At the very least, it wouldn't have felt dishonest.)

[Frustration]

48 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

For me, least favorite of the Cosmere Secret Projects (but still better than Frugal Wizard). 

Not bad, per se (on the scope of books in general), but the ending ruined it for me. Granted, I have not yet done a re-read. 

My Reactions Post

This post explains better than I could, why the ending did not work for me. Excerpt:

I agree the ending was probably the worst part of the book.

And honestly I agree with @Elegy. If Brandon had committed and killed Yumi this sub-forum would be a lot more lively. The fact that I can count on one hand the number of threads made more recently than two years ago is quite telling. That's white sand levels of irrelevance.

Edited Wednesday at 01:35 AM by Frustration

[Returned he/him]

I really enjoyed it. The setting was interesting, as was the split between contexts. I thought that the context-swapping concept was done well and suited the story, the contrasts of different art styles and commitment to them were interesting, and that the setups and reveals were pretty well done (I was intrigued throughout, at least). The romance plot was fine, though I thought the beginning was a little bit rushed/asserted more than shown but it came together in a satisfying way. I liked the structure of the climax, that Yumi could be contained and kept from learning enough to really challenge her containment but that her development and skill in her art could not be controlled.

I thought that the villain, an established and disinterested machine, was an interesting change of pace, and the attendant scholars who were enslaved but happy to be part of their great design was also interesting. I enjoyed the nature of the nightmares, especially Liyun's personality and dedication overcoming the nature of her nightmare existence.

I agree that the ending was awful: unearned, poorly set up and contrary to what was developing, undermining the story and themes of the book to give a tidy, happy ending. The ending alone drags my rating down by at least a star. I also got tired of Design and Hoid quickly, though I think a good portion of that was lingering distaste for Hoid's narration in Tress (which I had finished just before starting Yumi). I liked the pictures as a change of pace, even though I wish they had focused less often on the romance for subjects and composition.

The hierarchies of politeness in speech as expressed through grammar is an interesting and real-world thing to include, and done adequately enough, but only just barely so-- I acknowledge that English doesn't have grammar to do that, and so it can't be expressed as it can in Japanese (which was clearly the inspiration [EDIT: Frustration points out that the specific inspiration is Korean, though similar structures exist in Japanese]; I wonder how a Japanese [or Korean] translation expresses it in the book), but the "this novel is an in-world translation of an in-world language" device is generally one that leaves me cold. What would be subtle and artful as inflection becomes blunt and flat when dialogue is frequently modified with "he said respectfully/disrespectfully". The device wasn't quite overused, but it's fundamentally "tell rather than show" and pretending that it would be "shown rather than told" in some language in which the book is not written doesn't fix that for me.

Edited Wednesday at 04:37 PM by Returned

[Ink and Embers Any pronouns]

I enjoyed it and have it ranked as the second craziest thing I have read in my life. It was chaotic; I thought the character interactions were fun and well-detailed; I appreciated the anti-AI-art aspects; I was grateful for the scenes where Hoid explained what was happening! It is pretty similar in places to Your Name, but very interesting, especially the cultural differences between Yumi and Painter.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Returned said:

I acknowledge that English doesn't have grammar to do that, and so it can't be expressed as it can in Japanese (which was clearly the inspiration; I wonder how a Japanese translation expresses it),

Korean actually, as Brandon lived in Korea for two years and learned the language.

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, Returned said:

I acknowledge that English doesn't have grammar to do that, and so it can't be expressed as it can in Japanese (which was clearly the inspiration [EDIT: Frustration points out that the specific inspiration is Korean, though similar structures exist in Japanese]; I wonder how a Japanese [or Korean] translation expresses it in the book), but the "this novel is an in-world translation of an in-world language" device is generally one that leaves me cold.

I made a thread to explain this back during the spoiler period - extracted:

On 7/12/2023 at 1:40 PM, Treamayne said:

I thought that Hoid's description and definition of the Higher and Lower forms was . . . less than steller. The concept made sense to me, mostly because I studied Korean for years, as well as lived in Korea and Japan. So, assuming the concept Brandon was trying to express is actually based on Korean (which he also studied), I thought I would make a post giving a bit of desciption on the possible inspiration for that aspect of Komashi culture. 

  Hide contents

1. Relationships are important. So important, in fact, that the language naturally skews to reflecting the Connection between people. For example:
   • In English a simple noun like "uncle" has multiple translations in Korean - because the word "uncle" parses to a definition of the relationship:
     • Father's Brother (unmarried) - Samcheon (lit. third-relation) 삼촌
     • Mother's Brother (unmarried) - Waesamcheon (wae = maternal side) 외삼촌
     • Father's Older Brother (married) -  Big Father - Kunabeoji (or "more [age] than father") 큰아버지
     • Father's Younger Brother (married) - Little Father - Jagunabeoji (or "less [age] than father") 작은아버지
2. It's not only distinct nouns based on a relationship, the entire root form of a word can change based on relationship. Using the wrong form can be (intentionally or accidentally) insulting - especially using a child/animal form when it is obviously not "correct." For example:
   • To eat (note: infinitive [dictionary] forms of a verb are unconjugated ending in 'da,' 'ida,' or 'hada'):
     • Meokda 먹다 - Informal (yourself, somebody of similar rank or age, anybody younger)
     • Dushida 들다/드시다 - Polite/Honorific (restaurant server to customer, anybody older than you or above you in heirarchy)
     • Japsushida 잡수시다 - Extremely polite (honored boss, grandparent, etc.)
     • (Meogi[rul]) Juda 먹이를 주세요 - Animal (Feed an animal) - in this case the verb is Juda and "meogi" is what they are being fed - however just saying an animal ate something uses meokda and the conjugation carries the rest of the deprication.
3. Additionally, the conjugation of the word being used can change based on the way the topic is discussed
   • Discounting the oddity that most verb roots can be conjugated into nouns, adjectives, adverbs, etc. - there are generally at least six different basic conjugations per verb depending on the object being discussed:
   • Brief Summary - Me talking to a boss is different than me talking to a friend, which is different than me talking with a friend about our boss, etc.
     • Talking to/about somebody of greater age/rank gets an honorific conjugation (~십니다 - Formal Honorific)
     • Talking to/about somebody of greater age/rank with whom you know or have a good relationship (~세요 - Informal Honorific)
     • Talking to somebody of similar age/rank gets a normal conjugation (~ㅂ니다 - Formal)
     • Talking to somebody of similar age/rank with whom you know or have a good relationship (~요 - Informal)
       • Also most common internet conjugation
     • Talking to child, animal or somebody significantly below you in rank or age (~아/야 - Informal, commanding)
     • Generic or unknown audience (or talking down in a possibly insulting way) - use the dictionary infinitive form.
4. Suffixes
   • 씨 (sshi) non-gendered form of address to somebody of similar rank or age
   • 님 (nim) non-gendered form of address to somebody of higher rank or age (or showing honor)
   • 이 (i) non-gendered pronoun for something/someone near the speaker - English: This
   • 그 (gu) non-gendered pronoun for something/someone near the listener- English: That
   • 저 (jeo) non-gendered pronoun for something/someone away from both the speaker and listener- English: That over there

 

Summary - Based on context, the "highly"/"lowly" could be a verb change or conjugation change. While we don't know if Komashi uses either or both; the context of those tags will hopefully make more sense and be more impactful knowing from where it may have derived. 

Hope that helps

[Returned he/him]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Korean actually, as Brandon lived in Korea for two years and learned the language.

Thanks, it was the Japanese names (Yumi, Akane, etc.) that threw me.

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

I made a thread to explain this back during the spoiler period - extracted:

Nice primer! I understand the concept well enough. But whatever the specifics, they aren't properly expressible in English which can make it awkward to directly "translate", especially without the actual antecedents. I like the highly/lowly approach taken in Yumi for a bit of exoticism and worldbuilding (it really emphasizes the different social context) but dislike it as prose style. I don't like the approach much as a literary device either, and Hoid's "this is the best I can translate it to your language" puts it firmly in that territory. Mostly a personal taste and preference thing for me, not much of a critique beyond that.

Edited Wednesday at 07:25 PM by Returned

[Schizoposting]

In Yumi, like in other Romantasy, I think that there's a tension between the romance and the fantasy: it's not obvious to me, what the romance has to do with the themes about art, and the struggle against the Father Machine. In regular fantasy, romance is usually just a sub plot to show character growth, or something of that sort—but when both are equally prominent, the story can feel disjointed. 

But it has been a while since I last read Yumi, so if anyone has different opinion on this matter, I'd be curious to hear it.

[Nitpicking]

On 6/16/2026 at 8:47 PM, Treamayne said:

For me, least favorite of the Cosmere Secret Projects (but still better than Frugal Wizard). 

Exactly my reaction.

[NameIess]

On 6/16/2026 at 7:03 PM, Myst said:

I absolutely love it. I’m generally against romance or romance adjacent stuff(the fact that I consider Yumi to be romance adjacent should tell you that) but I thought it was natural. And it made sense. The moments the two shared were amazing.

I personally would rate this above Stormlight 3, so top 5, but yeah. It’s amazing.

I absolutely loved Design’s personality too.

I could go on and on. I need to reread it anyways. But it’s amazing 

I also am not generally a reader/fan of the romance genre, but I loved the romance in this book nonetheless. I'd put Yumi about WaT for sure, maybe Oathbringer as well.

On 6/16/2026 at 8:47 PM, Treamayne said:

For me, least favorite of the Cosmere Secret Projects (but still better than Frugal Wizard). 

Not bad, per se (on the scope of books in general), but the ending ruined it for me. Granted, I have not yet done a re-read. 

My Reactions Post

This post explains better than I could, why the ending did not work for me. Excerpt:

Fair. I think that my perception of the ending might be made different by the fact that I didn't fully buy into the sad ending actually happening, but I can see how the fakeout would leave a bitter taste.

On 6/17/2026 at 11:08 AM, Returned said:

I agree that the ending was awful: unearned, poorly set up and contrary to what was developing, undermining the story and themes of the book to give a tidy, happy ending. The ending alone drags my rating down by at least a star. I also got tired of Design and Hoid quickly, though I think a good portion of that was lingering distaste for Hoid's narration in Tress (which I had finished just before starting Yumi). I liked the pictures as a change of pace, even though I wish they had focused less often on the romance for subjects and composition.

I disagree that the ending undermined the themes of the story. I think that the ending where Yumi dies would undermine the themes of the story far more. Yumi's entire arc is about going from a person trapped by her position, ignoring her own needs and desires in order to serve others, to a person who can live for herself. Through her relationship with Painter (and the opportunity to experience life outside of her station as a Yoki-Hijo), she learns that she can own things, that she can have friends, that she can have love, that she does not have to sacrifice her life for others. If she simply dies at the end of the book, sacrificing her life and happiness for others, that's a denial of her arc. The Yumi at the beginning of the book would've acted the same way. The growth she experienced is irrelevant, and all you get is a sad ending. The story now is just about how Yumi gave Painter a chance to fix his relationship with his friends (until they start asking where she went, after which he'll probably end up in prison/an insane asylum) saved the planet from the Machine, and then died. I don't find that more compelling than the happy ending we got.

[Myst He/Him]

3 minutes ago, NameIess said:

I also am not generally a reader/fan of the romance genre, but I loved the romance in this book nonetheless. I'd put Yumi about WaT for sure, maybe Oathbringer as well.

I liked WaT for the Kaladin scenes, so I definitely don’t put Yumi above it. But fair. The reason I don’t like Oathbringer as much is the same reason I liked WaT.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Myst said:

I liked WaT for the Kaladin scenes, so I definitely don’t put Yumi above it. But fair. The reason I don’t like Oathbringer as much is the same reason I liked WaT.

Yeah, the lack of Kaladin is my reason for placing OB as number 4 out of the Stormlight books. But it is still a really strong book.

(man, I need to do a Stormlight reread)

[Myst He/Him]

13 minutes ago, NameIess said:

Yeah, the lack of Kaladin is my reason for placing OB as number 4 out of the Stormlight books. But it is still a really strong book.

(man, I need to do a Stormlight reread)

Except for the moment with the ideal, not a lot. (That moment was really good though) 

and same

[Returned he/him]

1 hour ago, NameIess said:

I disagree that the ending undermined the themes of the story.

My issue with the ending is less that Yumi survived and more that death-and-resurrection-via-wanting-it-enough-at-the-last-minute is an arbitrary device which really damages the weight of the death in the first place. You can have your cake and eat it, too. The thematic mismatch is more broad (for me), and I agree that what was written suits Yumi' character arc, as you outlined very well. Nikaro really can just spin up a wish that the world will rearrange itself to accommodate. Yumi's sacrifices really were unimportant, just as the more liberally raised yoki-hijo demonstrated in her proper time. I don't like those things as much.

The alternative ending I would prefer isn't necessarily one in which Yumi simply dies. It's one in which the last-minute magic Nikaro works was set up in some way, or the happy ending was achieved through less sudden, arbitrary means to immediately undo Yumi's self-sacrifice. Choices and sacrifices characters make should impact the ending more, and tidy, happy endings are overdone enough that I tend not to get any particular satisfaction from them.

[NameIess]

54 minutes ago, Returned said:

My issue with the ending is less that Yumi survived and more that death-and-resurrection-via-wanting-it-enough-at-the-last-minute is an arbitrary device which really damages the weight of the death in the first place. You can have your cake and eat it, too. The thematic mismatch is more broad (for me), and I agree that what was written suits Yumi' character arc, as you outlined very well. Nikaro really can just spin up a wish that the world will rearrange itself to accommodate. Yumi's sacrifices really were unimportant, just as the more liberally raised yoki-hijo demonstrated in her proper time. I don't like those things as much.

The alternative ending I would prefer isn't necessarily one in which Yumi simply dies. It's one in which the last-minute magic Nikaro works was set up in some way, or the happy ending was achieved through less sudden, arbitrary means to immediately undo Yumi's self-sacrifice. Choices and sacrifices characters make should impact the ending more, and tidy, happy endings are overdone enough that I tend not to get any particular satisfaction from them.

The ending for me was set up well. We see that invested entities can be affected by how people think about them and more specifically by painters. We see Nikaro returning Identity to nightmares by painting them. We know that Yumi is invested enough to persist after death. After the shroud is gone, Yumi doesn’t have a connection to the physical realm, and begins to lose her Identity. Painter gives Yumi that connection and reminds her of her Identity like he did with the nightmares. Unlike them, Yumi’s invested enough to make herself a new body and survive.

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, NameIess said:

The ending for me was set up well. We see that invested entities can be affected by how people think about them and more specifically by painters. We see Nikaro returning Identity to nightmares by painting them. We know that Yumi is invested enough to persist after death. After the shroud is gone, Yumi doesn’t have a connection to the physical realm, and begins to lose her Identity. Painter gives Yumi that connection and reminds her of her Identity like he did with the nightmares. Unlike them, Yumi’s invested enough to make herself a new body and survive.

I'd disagree.

Cosmere

Spoiler

I think Rashek is perhaps the most similar case we have to Yumi. He's immensely powerful, and had his soul expanded greatly both by natural infusion of investiture and by time. Likewise both of their lifespans are artificially extended by an outside force, either Atium or the Father Machine. After losing those mechanisms they both die. Rashek was far more invested than Yumi was, and likewise had the ability to persist. However he didn't have the ability to make himself a new body from scratch, just having that investiture isn't enough. Even the human fused that Ishar makes require other human bodies to return. Simply having Identity and investiture isn't enough to survive on when the latent Connections that made the survival possible are severed.

Likewise even Yumi acknowledges as she is breaking the Father Machine's hold that she can't survive without it. But then she does, for reasons. If she had just persisted as a Cognitive Shadow I would have been more okay with it, but it still would have felt cheap.

 

 

I also disliked that Dramas worked to bind the spirits. The whole point of the Yoki-hijo was that art wasn't enough you had to be a special person as well. Not only does it make the lore weird it feels unearned as a way to avoid bringing the yoki-hijo back in case someone took issue with it.

I still say Brandon has commitment issues when it comes to consequences, and will add this to his long list of fake-out deaths

[NameIess]

54 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I'd disagree.

Cosmere

  Reveal hidden contents

I think Rashek is perhaps the most similar case we have to Yumi. He's immensely powerful, and had his soul expanded greatly both by natural infusion of investiture and by time. Likewise both of their lifespans are artificially extended by an outside force, either Atium or the Father Machine. After losing those mechanisms they both die. Rashek was far more invested than Yumi was, and likewise had the ability to persist. However he didn't have the ability to make himself a new body from scratch, just having that investiture isn't enough. Even the human fused that Ishar makes require other human bodies to return. Simply having Identity and investiture isn't enough to survive on when the latent Connections that made the survival possible are severed.

Likewise even Yumi acknowledges as she is breaking the Father Machine's hold that she can't survive without it. But then she does, for reasons. If she had just persisted as a Cognitive Shadow I would have been more okay with it, but it still would have felt cheap.

 

 

I also disliked that Dramas worked to bind the spirits. The whole point of the Yoki-hijo was that art wasn't enough you had to be a special person as well. Not only does it make the lore weird it feels unearned as a way to avoid bringing the yoki-hijo back in case someone took issue with it.

I still say Brandon has commitment issues when it comes to consequences, and will add this to his long list of fake-out deaths

That's true that we don't really have precedent for a Cognitive Shadow being able to make a new body. However, what Painter did was not entirely different from what Yumi did by drawing spirits and requesting them to manifest in the physical realm. This WoB kinda implies that the mechanics are similar to that, although it might just be talking about the mechanics of attracting spirits:

Spoiler

Cheyenne Sedai

Stacking and other forms of art, like the TV dramas at the end, attract the spirits, but for some reason, painting doesn't. Could you elaborate on why, and the mechanical reasons behind that?

Brandon Sanderson

The painting would. The problem is that the way the painters are doing it, is a little too by-the-numbers. Painter isn't the only one who's just kind of doing it by rote. They have a little bit of... "commodification of art"-commentary going on in this, and things like that. I think the painting could draw the spirits; the painting does at the end. He draws Yumi, right? Which is working under the same mechanics. I think that part of it is proximity, part of it is the mechanical nature of it.

It is kind of in some ways, I think--kind of off the record--drawing the nightmares, as well as painting the nightmares. Because people are doing this, this is part of why the nightmares are finding their way. And it's one of these things that happen so often in life, that the thing that you're doing in order to stop the thing from happening actually causes it to happen more. It's the American football thing, right? We put helmets on people to protect them, which makes them feel more comfortable hitting each other harder, which causes, actually, more injuries than in sports where people are unpadded. And it's one of those kinds of, "And they're painting the nightmares to stop the nightmares but that's also kinda drawing the nightmares."

I do think you could draw the spirits with painting. I just think there's kind of a collection of things--remember, what it took from Yumi to actually, legitimately draw spirits away from the machinery. It took how many centuries of practice on her part? I think it's a combination of all those factors why the paintings aren't quite drawing the spirits. And it did, right? Painter drew the spirits. Now, it's telling that he drew the spirits on the job that he wasn't required to do, because his shift was over, and he could've gone home, and he didn't. He went anyway. And that's the time the spirits noticed him. But they'd been watching him already, anyway. I think, in the chronology, if you actually go and break it down, they talk to Yumi before he actually even saves that child and say, "We've been watching someone, we got somebody for you." But that was kind of the straw that turned the camel into a superhero. I dunno, there's a mixed metaphor for you.

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

As for Yumi's death after the Father machine was destroyed:

Cosmere spoilers

Spoiler

Her situation is different from TLR. Her life was extended, but not directly by the Father Machine. If it could've simply let her die, it would have. The Yoki-Hijo seem to have gained investiture from the Shroud that allowed them to become immortal independent of the Father Machine. Indeed, it seems that they all manifested physical bodies from that investiture. Once the Father Machine died, however, it no longer kept the Shroud in the physical realm, and therefore the Yoki-Hijo no longer had a connection there. Also, I will note that the actual Herald's bodies are manifested out of Investiture when they return, so it is possible for those powerful enough, it just requires a) enough Investiture (From Honor in the Herald's case, the Shroud in the Yoki-Hijo's case) and b) a mechanism to create the new bodies (The Heralds set theirs up by use of the Surges, I would argue that Invested Entities like the spirits or the post-Shroud Yoki-Hijo manifesting in the Physical realm is part of the magic system of Komashi) TLR probably had the Investiture to create a new body, he just hadn't set up a mechanism while he held the Well of Ascenscion and didn't have anything from Feruchemy or Allomancy that could've allowed him to create a new body after he died.

As for the Yoki-Hijo being the only ones able to draw spirits, we see even before the end that it's not the case. The machines are able to attract the spirits and get them to manifest. The Yoki-Hijo may have an advantage in drawing spirits, and they certainly have an advantage in communicating with them. We only ever see Yumi (and Painter, by association) speak to spirits, and I assume that's the real uniqueness of the Yoki-Hijo. That they can speak to the spirits and convince them to manifest with mental commands, instead of the cruder methods the scholars needed to use.

However, I do think that the whole 'oh, the planet's fine, despite the fact that they went from unlimited free Hion to no free Hion, they probably lost an entire harvest to the sunlight/heated ground, and everyone got skin cancer from the sun.' aspect of the ending was the weakest part of it. I mean, maybe the Hion gradually faded, since the spirits currently manifested might not have immediately been freed, but it's still an all-out disaster that would've resulted in a lot of suffering and death. In universe I suspect Hoid was just glazing over the really hard times, but out of universe it does cheapen an otherwise masterful ending.

[alder24]

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

Cosmere

  Hide contents

I think Rashek is perhaps the most similar case we have to Yumi. He's immensely powerful, and had his soul expanded greatly both by natural infusion of investiture and by time. Likewise both of their lifespans are artificially extended by an outside force, either Atium or the Father Machine. After losing those mechanisms they both die. Rashek was far more invested than Yumi was, and likewise had the ability to persist. However he didn't have the ability to make himself a new body from scratch, just having that investiture isn't enough. Even the human fused that Ishar makes require other human bodies to return. Simply having Identity and investiture isn't enough to survive on when the latent Connections that made the survival possible are severed.

Cosmere:

Spoiler

Rashek is not that invested, he's just a sliver and he isn't a CS. Yumi was a CS ever since the Father Machine was activated, and with every day she became more and more invested. She's more invested than Elantrians, who are more invested than Heralds, who are CS and can create their own bodies out of their investiture.

Spoiler

Argent

If we are looking at very highly Invested beings, we have Yumi, and we are told that she is more Invested than Elantrians, more Invested than Returned. Let's compare Yumi, Elantrians, and Heralds. Who is most Invested, who is least Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

Of those, probably Heralds... The thing is, the Heralds varied. How in tune and aligned they are with their oaths, their promise... It wasn't Oaths, but they did promise certain things when they became Heralds. It was pre Knights Radiants, it's not as formalized as Oaths. How in line with the power of Honor, how in line with the kind of natural Investiture of Roshar--which is separate from Honor, Cultivation and Odium--are they, how can they draw upon that. I will call them the least of the three though.

Argent

So Heralds on the bottom, and Yumi on top, and Elantrians in the middle?

Brandon Sanderson

Yumi on top, but Yumi's very close to an Elantrian. They're within the same conversation. And most of the yoki-hijo were traditionally in the past less, they've gained Investiture over time.

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

 

 

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

Likewise even Yumi acknowledges as she is breaking the Father Machine's hold that she can't survive without it. But then she does, for reasons. If she had just persisted as a Cognitive Shadow I would have been more okay with it, but it still would have felt cheap.

I don't think Yumi needed Nikaro to survive at all, she already was a hyper invested CS, she could do it on her own. The problem is, she thought she had to die and because of that perception she started to fade. Nikaro made her realize that she can stay and live her life as she wants. At least that's my interpretation.

 

6 hours ago, NameIess said:

However, I do think that the whole 'oh, the planet's fine, despite the fact that they went from unlimited free Hion to no free Hion, they probably lost an entire harvest to the sunlight/heated ground, and everyone got skin cancer from the sun.' aspect of the ending was the weakest part of it. I mean, maybe the Hion gradually faded, since the spirits currently manifested might not have immediately been freed, but it's still an all-out disaster that would've resulted in a lot of suffering and death. In universe I suspect Hoid was just glazing over the really hard times, but out of universe it does cheapen an otherwise masterful ending.

The spirits like TV dramas and decided to still manifest Hion, so it's still there. But true, the ending kind of ignores the consequences of the end of the Shroud. 

[Returned he/him]

15 hours ago, NameIess said:

The ending for me was set up well. We see that invested entities can be affected by how people think about them and more specifically by painters. We see Nikaro returning Identity to nightmares by painting them. We know that Yumi is invested enough to persist after death. After the shroud is gone, Yumi doesn’t have a connection to the physical realm, and begins to lose her Identity. Painter gives Yumi that connection and reminds her of her Identity like he did with the nightmares. Unlike them, Yumi’s invested enough to make herself a new body and survive.

I hadn't thought about it that way before,  but I can see that angle. I'll have to re-read the ending with it in mind. I still dislike that type of ending as a structure (meaningful death, especially as a sacrifice chosen by that character, then immediate, free resurrection) but that's  different thing. And it is a romance story, where that sort of thing is more expected (and it's certainly a romantic ending).

Edited 11 hours ago by Returned

[Frustration]

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

Cosmere:

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Rashek is not that invested, he's just a sliver and he isn't a CS. Yumi was a CS ever since the Father Machine was activated, and with every day she became more and more invested. She's more invested than Elantrians, who are more invested than Heralds, who are CS and can create their own bodies out of their investiture.

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Argent

If we are looking at very highly Invested beings, we have Yumi, and we are told that she is more Invested than Elantrians, more Invested than Returned. Let's compare Yumi, Elantrians, and Heralds. Who is most Invested, who is least Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

Of those, probably Heralds... The thing is, the Heralds varied. How in tune and aligned they are with their oaths, their promise... It wasn't Oaths, but they did promise certain things when they became Heralds. It was pre Knights Radiants, it's not as formalized as Oaths. How in line with the power of Honor, how in line with the kind of natural Investiture of Roshar--which is separate from Honor, Cultivation and Odium--are they, how can they draw upon that. I will call them the least of the three though.

Argent

So Heralds on the bottom, and Yumi on top, and Elantrians in the middle?

Brandon Sanderson

Yumi on top, but Yumi's very close to an Elantrian. They're within the same conversation. And most of the yoki-hijo were traditionally in the past less, they've gained Investiture over time.

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

 

 

I don't think Yumi needed Nikaro to survive at all, she already was a hyper invested CS, she could do it on her own. The problem is, she thought she had to die and because of that perception she started to fade. Nikaro made her realize that she can stay and live her life as she wants. At least that's my interpretation.

Cosmere

Spoiler

Rashek wasn't a CS because he hadn't died yet, however he had the investiture needed to become one, which he did upon his death. Leras outright saying that he could endure if he wished to. He had already already modified his spiritweb which had been deeply affected by holding the Well. I mean we saw what that did with BAM and Ishar. And he savanted on top of that. I honestly would be surprised if Yumi was even close to TLR.

And while she is more invested than Heralds that's after they broke their oaths, and left, which left some of them like Kalak, Chana, and Vedev to even loose their ability to call on the powers of Roshar. The Heralds in RoW time are far lesser than they were during the Desolations. Except Taln, and maybe Ishar. He's got Well of Control oddness going on.

While the Heralds can create bodies that comes from the power Honor provides, not themselves. Even assuming the Shoud was slowly consumed by the yoki-hijo(which is quite a morbid thought) I don't think it would be enough, especially as the shroud fades before Yumi is brought back.

 

18 hours ago, NameIess said:

As for Yumi's death after the Father machine was destroyed:

Cosmere spoilers

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Her situation is different from TLR. Her life was extended, but not directly by the Father Machine. If it could've simply let her die, it would have. The Yoki-Hijo seem to have gained investiture from the Shroud that allowed them to become immortal independent of the Father Machine. Indeed, it seems that they all manifested physical bodies from that investiture. Once the Father Machine died, however, it no longer kept the Shroud in the physical realm, and therefore the Yoki-Hijo no longer had a connection there. Also, I will note that the actual Herald's bodies are manifested out of Investiture when they return, so it is possible for those powerful enough, it just requires a) enough Investiture (From Honor in the Herald's case, the Shroud in the Yoki-Hijo's case) and b) a mechanism to create the new bodies (The Heralds set theirs up by use of the Surges, I would argue that Invested Entities like the spirits or the post-Shroud Yoki-Hijo manifesting in the Physical realm is part of the magic system of Komashi) TLR probably had the Investiture to create a new body, he just hadn't set up a mechanism while he held the Well of Ascenscion and didn't have anything from Feruchemy or Allomancy that could've allowed him to create a new body after he died.

I agree that if the Father Machine could have let her die it would have, but she wasn't the only one sustained, all of the cognitive shadows of the people were created and perpetuated in the shroud. Nor were the Yoki-hijo the only ones drawn into the PR because of it. The Yoji-hijo just were invested enough to be self-aware, which the Father Machine had to deal with, which it did by drawing them and others into the PR to have them relive one day over and over again.

18 hours ago, NameIess said:

As for the Yoki-Hijo being the only ones able to draw spirits, we see even before the end that it's not the case. The machines are able to attract the spirits and get them to manifest. The Yoki-Hijo may have an advantage in drawing spirits, and they certainly have an advantage in communicating with them. We only ever see Yumi (and Painter, by association) speak to spirits, and I assume that's the real uniqueness of the Yoki-Hijo. That they can speak to the spirits and convince them to manifest with mental commands, instead of the cruder methods the scholars needed to use.

Even then it still required rock stacking, more of an artificial Yoki-hijo than another method. Assuming that they could use the Hion lines to make a new machine I'd accept if it was another rock stacker. Dramas felt like a cop-out.

Edited 2 hours ago by Frustration

[Myst He/Him]

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Cosmere

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cosmere

Spoiler

From the way Brandon answered the question(bringing up how it was before the radiants were formalized) seems to me to suggest that he’s saying that Yumi’s more powerful than the heralds before they broke their oaths.

as for TLR, in my knowledge savantism doesn’t make you any more or less invested, it just alters your spiritweb. It’s not like Spook gained investiture when he was a tin savant.

Also, the part about the herald’s borrowing Honor’s power to come back seems a little weird to me. Their entire power comes from Honor. It’s because of Him their oath had consequences, so if you use that to get around them not being invested, then I feel like you’re essentially saying that they’re not invested at all because it’s all Honor’s power.

And even if it is just Honor’s power, Vin held the well’s power, which isn’t her power, its Preservations, and we consider her to be highly invested during that point. I don’t see why the heralds are different.

 

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Even then it still required rock stacking, more of an artificial Yoki-hijo than another method. Assuming that they could use the Hion lines to make a new machine I'd accept if it was another rock stacker. Dramas felt like a cop-out.

To me that would’ve felt like they hadn’t learned anything. To use another machine just sounds like they didn’t learn anything from what just happened with the shroud and everything. But to use a person that would just go back to being a Yoki-hijo, and that also goes back on the entire book. It had to be something other than stacking rocks