Highly and Lowly

[Treamayne]

I thought that Hoid's description and definition of the Higher and Lower forms was . . . less than steller. The concept made sense to me, mostly because I studied Korean for years, as well as lived in Korea and Japan. So, assuming the concept Brandon was trying to express is actually based on Korean (which he also studied), I thought I would make a post giving a bit of desciption on the possible inspiration for that aspect of Komashi culture. 

Spoiler

1. Relationships are important. So important, in fact, that the language naturally skews to reflecting the Connection between people. For example:
   • In English a simple noun like "uncle" has multiple translations in Korean - because the word "uncle" parses to a definition of the relationship:
     • Father's Brother (unmarried) - Samcheon (lit. third-relation) 삼촌
     • Mother's Brother (unmarried) - Waesamcheon (wae = maternal side) 외삼촌
     • Father's Older Brother (married) -  Big Father - Kunabeoji (or "more [age] than father") 큰아버지
     • Father's Younger Brother (married) - Little Father - Jagunabeoji (or "less [age] than father") 작은아버지
2. It's not only distinct nouns based on a relationship, the entire root form of a word can change based on relationship. Using the wrong form can be (intentionally or accidentally) insulting - especially using a child/animal form when it is obviously not "correct." For example:
   • To eat (note: infinitive [dictionary] forms of a verb are unconjugated ending in 'da,' 'ida,' or 'hada'):
     • Meokda 먹다 - Informal (yourself, somebody of similar rank or age, anybody younger)
     • Dushida 들다/드시다 - Polite/Honorific (restaurant server to customer, anybody older than you or above you in heirarchy)
     • Japsushida 잡수시다 - Extremely polite (honored boss, grandparent, etc.)
     • (Meogi[rul]) Juda 먹이를 주세요 - Animal (Feed an animal) - in this case the verb is Juda and "meogi" is what they are being fed - however just saying an animal ate something uses meokda and the conjugation carries the rest of the deprication.
3. Additionally, the conjugation of the word being used can change based on the way the topic is discussed
   • Discounting the oddity that most verb roots can be conjugated into nouns, adjectives, adverbs, etc. - there are generally at least six different basic conjugations per verb depending on the object being discussed:
   • Brief Summary - Me talking to a boss is different than me talking to a friend, which is different than me talking with a friend about our boss, etc.
     • Talking to/about somebody of greater age/rank gets an honorific conjugation (~십니다 - Formal Honorific)
     • Talking to/about somebody of greater age/rank with whom you know or have a good relationship (~세요 - Informal Honorific)
     • Talking to somebody of similar age/rank gets a normal conjugation (~ㅂ니다 - Formal)
     • Talking to somebody of similar age/rank with whom you know or have a good relationship (~요 - Informal)
       • Also most common internet conjugation
     • Talking to child, animal or somebody significantly below you in rank or age (~아/야 - Informal, commanding)
     • Generic or unknown audience (or talking down in a possibly insulting way) - use the dictionary infinitive form.
4. Suffixes
   • 씨 (sshi) non-gendered form of address to somebody of similar rank or age
   • 님 (nim) non-gendered form of address to somebody of higher rank or age (or showing honor)
   • 이 (i) non-gendered pronoun for something/someone near the speaker - English: This
   • 그 (gu) non-gendered pronoun for something/someone near the listener- English: That
   • 저 (jeo) non-gendered pronoun for something/someone away from both the speaker and listener- English: That over there

 

Summary - Based on context, the "highly"/"lowly" could be a verb change or conjugation change. While we don't know if Komashi uses either or both; the context of those tags will hopefully make more sense and be more impactful knowing from where it may have derived. 

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Firesong she/her]

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I thought that Hoid's description and definition of the Higher and Lower forms was . . . less than steller. The concept made sense to me, mostly because I studied Korean for years, as well as lived in Korea and Japan. So, assuming the concept Brandon was trying to express is actually based on Korean (which he also studied), I thought I would make a post giving a bit of desciption on the possible inspiration for that aspect of Komashi culture. 

  Hide contents

1. Relationships are important. So important, in fact, that the language naturally skews to reflecting the Connection between people. For example:
   • In English a simple noun like "uncle" has multiple translations in Korean - because the word "uncle" parses to a definition of the relationship:
     • Father's Brother (unmarried) - Samcheon (lit. third-relation) 삼촌
     • Mother's Brother (unmarried) - Waesamcheon (wae = maternal side) 외삼촌
     • Father's Older Brother (married) -  Big Father - Kunabeoji (or "more [age] than father") 큰아버지
     • Father's Younger Brother (married) - Little Father - Jagunabeoji (or "less [age] than father") 작은아버지
2. It's not only distinct nouns based on a relationship, the entire root form of a word can change based on relationship. Using the wrong form can be (intentionally or accidentally) insulting - especially using a child/animal form when it is obviously not "correct." For example:
   • To eat (note: infinitve [dictionary] forms of a verb are unconjugated anding in 'da,' 'ida,' or 'hada'):
     • Meokda 먹다 - Informal (yourself, somebody of similar rank or age, anybody younger
     • Dushida 들다/드시다 - Polite/Honorific (restaurant server to customer, anybody older than you or above you in heirarchy)
     • Japsushida 잡수시다 - Extremely polite (honored boss, grandparent, etc.)
     • (Meogi[rul]) Juda 먹이를 주세요 - Animal (Feed an animal) - in this case the verb is Juda and "meogi" is what they are being fed - however just saying an animal ate something uses meokda and the conjugation carries the rest of the deprication.
3. Additionally, the conjugation of the word being used can change based on the way the topic is discussed
   • Discounting the oddity that most verb roots can be conjugated into nouns, adjectives, adverbs, etc. - there are generally at least six different basic conjugations per verb depending on the object being discussed:
   • Brief Summary - Me talking to a boss is different than me talking to a friend, which is different than me talking with a friend about our boss, etc.
     • Talking to/about somebody of greater age/rank gets an honorific conjugation (~십니다 - Formal Honorific)
     • Talking to/about somebody of greater age/rank with whom you know or have a good relationship (~세요 - Informal Honorific)
     • Talking to somebody of similar age/rank gets a normal conjugation (~ㅂ니다 - Formal)
     • Talking to somebody of similar age/rank with whom you know or have a good relationship (~요 - Informal)
       • Also most common internet conjugation
     • Talking to child, animal or somebody significantly below you in rank or age (~아/야 - Informal, commanding)
     • Generic or unknown audience (or talking down in a possibly insulting way) - use the dictionary infinitive form.
4. Suffixes
   • 씨 (sshi) non-gendered form of address to somebody of similar rank or age
   • 님 (nim) non-gendered form of address to somebody of higher rank or age (or showing honor)
   • 이 (i) non-gendered pronoun for something/someone near the speaker
   • 그 (gu) non-gendered pronoun for something/someone near the listener
   • 저 (jeo) non-gendered pronoun for something/someone away from both the speaker and listener

 

Summary - Based on context, the "highly"/"lowly" could be a verb change or conjugation change. While we don't know if Komashi uses either or both; the context of those tags will hopefully make more sense and be more impactful knowing from where it may have derived. 

 

Yeah, I do feel it was kinda meant to be quick and simple as the exact way it worked wasn't important to understanding the story, the main important thing was the intention or level of respect meant by it. Like, he ultimately is telling a story to people in-world.

I do feel it is probably more complicated as he does say things like "lowest" instead of "low", which implies there are more than two levels. This is further justified by how they clearly do have a respectful informal form that they speak in normally, then a higher form, then a lower form. So, there is a lot of implication of how it works that wasn't directly stated. 

And, fun fact, English used to have something like this for second-person pronouns, all the thou, thee, thy, and such were actually informal pronouns, while you, your, etc are formal. It has basically completely faded away with time, the difference between singular second person and plural second person also vanished. That is why you is treated as grammatically plural (you are instead of you is), as that is how it started life. 

But, yeah, Brandon speaks Korean, so it was definitely influenced by Korean specifically. 

I am personally more familiar with Japanese, which does also have similar ideas in their language, with keigo and with pronouns having different levels of respect associated with them (though they prefer to avoid pronouns in general, even first-person pronoun is dropped when it is obvious or implied)

Edited July 13, 2023 by Firesong

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Firesong said:

I am personally more familiar with Japanese, which does also have similar ideas in their language, with keigo and with pronouns having different levels of respect associated with them (though they prefer to avoid pronouns in general, even first-person pronoun is dropped when it is obvious or implied)

Absolutely - that's why I cited the location pronouns becuase they are far more comman than a person pronoun; and I don't think there are any gendered pronouns that I remember, the closest you get is "that person" (저사람 - or a more specific noun than person like teacher, executive, etc.)

I picked up some rudimentary Japanese while living on Okinawa (they are grammatically related languages - different alphabets, and Kanji is a weird mix of the long form hanja I was used to, short form hanze like China and Japanese specific short form). One my treasure acquisitions from Seoul (Kyobo book centre) is what I call a master dictionary. It's set up like a character dictionary, but for every character it has: long form, short form (if applicable), Japanese short form (if applicable), bopomofo, hangul, hiragana, english.

[Firesong she/her]

12 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Absolutely - that's why I cited the location pronouns becuase they are far more comman than a person pronoun; and I don't think there are any gendered pronouns that I remember, the closest you get is "that person" (저사람 - or a more specific noun than person like teacher, executive, etc.)

I picked up some rudimentary Japanese while living on Okinawa (they are grammatically related languages - different alphabets, and Kanji is a weird mix of the long form hanja I was used to, short form hanze like China and Japanese specific short form). One my treasure acquisitions from Seoul (Kyobo book centre) is what I call a master dictionary. It's set up like a character dictionary, but for every character it has: long form, short form (if applicable), Japanese short form (if applicable), bopomofo, hangul, hiragana, english.

Actually, the Korean-Japonic hypothesis isn't exactly popular, look at the work of Alexander Vovin for instance. He did a lot of work and concluded they are definitely not related. It ultimately comes down to a sprachbund as a result of geographic proximity and interactions. 

[Treamayne]

44 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Actually, the Korean-Japonic hypothesis isn't exactly popular, look at the work of Alexander Vovin for instance. He did a lot of work and concluded they are definitely not related. It ultimately comes down to a sprachbund as a result of geographic proximity and interactions. 

Understood. I'm not a linguist major and lingual anthropology is barely a hobby. I don't much follow or care about the debates on Uralic, Altaic (or Ural-Altaic) - and whether the similaity is due to linguisitic descent, diffusion or absorption. All I meant was "there's is enough influence that the grammar is extremely similar, meaning it was easy for me to study Japanese since I already knew Korean."

From a historic perspective we do know that at least some of the Paekche (Baekje) fled the invading Shilla in the 600s by going to the (what is now) Japanese islands (originally inhabited by Ainu). Scholars can debate the nature of the language relationships - for me it's enough to know that similarities are present. Maybe "related" was the wrong word, but I thougth it was the best description for the point I was trying to make. My apologies. 

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Firesong she/her]

10 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Understood. I'm not a linguist major and lingual anthropology is barely a hobby. I don't much follow or care about the debates on Uralic, Altaic (or Ural-Altaic) - and whether the similaity is due to linguisitic descent, diffusion or absorption. All I meant was "there's is enough influence that the grammar is extremely similar, meaning it was easy for me to study Japanese since I already knew Korean."

From a historic perspective we do know that at least some of the Paekche (Baekje) fled the invading Shilla in the 600s by going to the (what is now) Japanese islands (originally inhabited by Ainu). Scholars can debate the nature of the language relationships - for me it's enough to know that similarities are present. Maybe "related" was the wrong word, but I thougth it was the best description for the point I was trying to make. My apologies. 

 

All good. But yes, you are right about grammatical similarities, those are indeed present. 

[Argenti he/him]

As a person who does not speak either languge, the highly lowly thing was probably the best way to make it somewhat reminiscent of... Honorifics? (I think that's the name) My brain just kinda translated it into "Storming". Just a way to add focus to certain parts of a sentence. If he had put proper conjugation in Brandon would have lost me, I'm not memorizing another one (Latin's already taken that spot).

[Firesong she/her]

1 hour ago, Argenti said:

As a person who does not speak either languge, the highly lowly thing was probably the best way to make it somewhat reminiscent of... Honorifics? (I think that's the name) My brain just kinda translated it into "Storming". Just a way to add focus to certain parts of a sentence. If he had put proper conjugation in Brandon would have lost me, I'm not memorizing another one (Latin's already taken that spot).

No, it was clearly more than honorifics, honorifics don't really modify nouns and verbs that way, mostly just proper nouns. So, it is more akin to what Treamayne spoke of from Korean. 

[Argenti he/him]

Just now, Firesong said:

No, it was clearly more than honorifics, honorifics don't really modify nouns and verbs that way, mostly just proper nouns. So, it is more akin to what Treamayne spoke of from Korean. 

Ah, honestly, I have no idea what any of what Treamayne said means. My eyes glazed over at infinitive.

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Argenti said:

As a person who does not speak either languge, the highly lowly thing was probably the best way to make it somewhat reminiscent of... Honorifics? (I think that's the name) My brain just kinda translated it into "Storming". Just a way to add focus to certain parts of a sentence. If he had put proper conjugation in Brandon would have lost me, I'm not memorizing another one (Latin's already taken that spot).

1 hour ago, Firesong said:

No, it was clearly more than honorifics, honorifics don't really modify nouns and verbs that way, mostly just proper nouns. So, it is more akin to what Treamayne spoke of from Korean. 

Sorry I was unclear - I agree that the (highly)/(lowly) tags were probably the most efficient way to convey what was happening - I just thought that Hoid's explanation in Ch 2 was a bit lacking (for readers that really wanted to understand how such things are conveyed):

Spoiler

Yumi’s and Painter’s languages shared a common root, and in both there was a certain affectation I find hard to express in your tongue. They could conjugate sentences, or add modifiers to words, to indicate praise or derision. Interestingly, no curses or swears existed among them. They would simply change a word to its lowest form instead. I’ll do my best to indicate this nuance by adding the words “highly” or “lowly” in certain key locations.

It was fine for the story (especially in the context of Hoid telling this verbally) - I just thought I would write this post for fans who may want to know more. 

[Colors]

On 7/13/2023 at 12:38 PM, Argenti said:

As a person who does not speak either languge, the highly lowly thing was probably the best way to make it somewhat reminiscent of... Honorifics? (I think that's the name) My brain just kinda translated it into "Storming". Just a way to add focus to certain parts of a sentence. If he had put proper conjugation in Brandon would have lost me, I'm not memorizing another one (Latin's already taken that spot).

This is kind of how my brain (which understands nothing about Korean or Japanese) interpreted things.

On Roshar *Storming* can be used positively or negatively.

"That was storming brilliant" vs. "That storming man"

Or likewise, on Scadrial *Rusting* can be used positively or negatively.

"That's a rusting masterpiece" vs. "What a rusting idiot"

 

That's kind of how I read highly and slowly in the book. Hoid specifically said they didn't have curses so this would have been the simplified way of expressing how their culture conveys positive vs negative.

Edited February 20 by Colors