The Creation of True Spren

Jult · May 18

I've been really digging into the Tanavast chapters in WaT recently and one passage really stood out to me the other day (WaT Chapter 104):

Spoiler

Quote

WHILE WE'D CREATED SMALLER THINGS EARLIER, WE NOW MOVED ON TO CREATE TRUE BEINGS. WITH PASSIONS, THOUGHTS, IDEAS OF THEIR OWN. CREATIONS OF LIGHT AND WIND AND DREAMS. THEY EVOLVED NOT THROUGH GENETICS, AS PHYSICAL BEINGS DID, BUT THROUGH PERCEPTION.

I LOVED THEM.

WE DECIDED TO FORM TEN VARIETIES. TEN BECAUSE MY POWER LOVED THE SYMMETRY. TEN, BECAUSE KOR LOVED ME, AND KNEW THIS MADE ME HAPPY. WE STARTED WITH THE FIRST SEVEN, THEN ONE VARIETY WAS BORN OF KOR ALONE. IN COUNTERPART, AND AT HER URGING, I CREATED ONE VARIETY ALMOST ENTIRELY ON MY OWN. MY ANGELS OF HONOR.

THEY LOVED THE WIND, FOR REASONS EVEN I COULD NOT FULLY FATHOM. WE LOOKED ON THE NINE SO FAR WITH PLEASURE - BUT I COULD FEEL SLIGHT DISAPPOINTMENT FROM KOR.

"I LOVE THEM," SHE SAID. "BUT THEY ARE... SO HUMAN. IS THERE A WAY TO CREATE SOMETHING NEW? SOMETHING NOT INFLUENCED BY OUTSIDE PERCEPTION OR THOUGHTS?"

"IF THERE IS A WAY, BELOVED," I SAID, "YOU COULD FIND IT. WE CAN FOLLOW YOUR LEAD TO MAKE THE TENTH."

After this passage, Tanavast immediately leaves for Ashyn without finishing the tenth variety.

So, this inspired a few lines of thought. Not sure if any one alone is big enough for a discussion, but all of them together should be.

1. Which variety is 100% Cultivation?

I know the obvious answer is Cultivationspren. But is it the correct answer? Mistspren bother me so much that I could probably make a topic about them alone..

They are the least humanoid in the Cognitive Realm and can even take fully non-human shape.
Truthwatchers get an extra special spot in the Double Eye.
Truthwatcher powers feel more aligned to Cultivation than Edgedancers (future-sight > Abrasion).
They seem the most open to Sja-Anat's Enlightenment (perhaps because they have no Honor in them).
Plus, mists don't seem that common on Roshar. But mists do have some larger Cosmere significance (Vax and Scadrial).

2. Honorspren are not 100% Honor

That's it. That's the note. I was under the impression that they were 100% Honor, but he says "almost". It was news to me, so maybe it's news to you too.

3. Did they ever create the tenth variety Kor was envisioning?

My gut instinct is to point at the Bondsmith spren. They aren't affected by people's perception of them; which was one of Kor's main goals for the tenth variety. And Brandon has called the 3 of them one "kind" of spren before (WoB). But also consider:

They aren't original creations - they're born of Wind, Stone, and Night. Which feels like they shouldn't count to me.
Tanavast and Kor didn't create them together. We see Tanavast imprint himself onto the storm while Kor is off-planet.
The Sibling and Stormfather seem nearly incapable of change - which feels like it doesn't meet Kor's vision.

I know Tanavast got distracted and left after the 9th variety was completed. If I were Kor, I probably wouldn't have left the job unfinished. I would have created a tenth without Tanavast.

Master_Moridin · May 18

6 hours ago, Jult said:

Truthwatchers get an extra special spot in the Double Eye.

Truthwatcher powers feel more aligned to Cultivation than Edgedancers (future-sight > Abrasion).

They seem the most open to Sja-Anat's Enlightenment (perhaps because they have no Honor in them).

Truthwatcher position comes out of the Herald order, Honor granted the Truthwatcher powers on his own through the Honorblade, the Enlightened mistspren are a mix of Honor and Odium.

6 hours ago, Jult said:

They aren't original creations - they're born of Wind, Stone, and Night. Which feels like they shouldn't count to me.

Tanavast and Kor didn't create them together. We see Tanavast imprint himself onto the storm while Kor is off-planet.

The Sibling and Stormfather seem nearly incapable of change - which feels like it doesn't meet Kor's vision.

So what Cultivation describes she wants to make for the tenth, spren that arent influenced by perception, is what we're told the Nightwatcher is. So she did eventually make what she wanted...just for weird shenanigans the other two spren made from Old Magic fit into the same category.

And to note, it does get mentioned that in part perception did shape the Stormfather.

ParaTulip · May 18

6 hours ago, Jult said:

Truthwatcher powers feel more aligned to Cultivation than Edgedancers (future-sight > Abrasion).

I think this is possibly a misunderstanding caused by Lift being a child and also Renarin being our Truthwatcher PoV.

Yes, lightweaving and progression are really good for carrying out Cultivation, but I think they are closer to carrying out Cultivation and Honor by a smidge, like one place off from being pure Cultivation. Rather, it is the mix of Progression and Abrasion that is the truest expression of a cultivator.

I just read up on the domestication of silver foxes, which I will put a quote I pulled from the wiki page on the other page of this message so you can read it too. it is a story of a woman leading a project to take already farmed foxes and increase their tameness. The path to doing this is simple: As the foxes grow, stop them periodically to check their tameness. Imagine trying to conduct this same project on Roshar, which Radiant order would be most likely to give you someone who succeeds? You might say Truthwatcher, but then imagine a version of the project where the goal was not to breed a singular type of tame foxes, to achieve a specific vision, but instead to seek a way to grow the potentials of foxes on the whole? In that case, the vision that Truthwatcher have is merely a distraction. The real foxes are what should be watched, should be made to grow or not grow in various ways.

I want to put this another way, since it is a hard thing to feel out. Ask yourself: How does God cultivate people? Does God have a vision for each of us which we must attain, or are we each a miraculous unfolding of possibilities that God is also eager to know? I think, when at least Kor imagines God, she imagines a want for a mysterious unfolding in each new soul. To try to set the path something will grow into is a limitation of that growth. She would see God's plan for people to be that they meet challenges and grow from them, that they encounter resistance and surpass it. Friction and healing, challenges and learning, trauma and recovery; those are the true tools and they are forms of Abrasion and Progression, not Lightweaving and Progression.

Another way to see this: All the Spren but Cultivation Spren are already corrupted by Honor. Mistspren are fine with being corrupted more because they were never pure to begin with. The Highspren, Honorspren, and Cultivationspren are probably the least interested in being Enlightened because they might want to be monoshardic for whatever reasons (yes, Highspren and Honorspren are both dishardic, but they have become culturally weird about it.)

Now the biggest counter argument is that the most Cultivation coded Spren ever is the Nightwatcher and that sure does sound like a parallel to a Truthwatcher. That I have to just call a coincidence and hope it doesn't sink my argument.

"When a cub is one month old, an experimenter offers it food from his hand while trying to stroke and handle the cub. The cubs are tested twice, once in a cage and once while moving freely with other cubs in an enclosure, where they can choose to make contact either with the human experimenter or with another cub. The test is repeated monthly until the cubs are six or seven months old." At the age of seven or eight months, the cubs are given a tameness score and placed in one of three groups. The least domesticated are in Class III; those that allow humans to pet and handle them, but that do not respond to contact with friendliness, are in Class II; the ones that are friendly with humans are in Class I. After only six generations, Belyayev and his team had to add a higher category, Class IE, the "domesticated elite", which "are eager to establish human contact, whimpering to attract attention and sniffing and licking experimenters like dogs. They start displaying this kind of behavior before they are one month old. By the 20th generation 35% were 'elite', and by the 30th generation 70% to 80% of the selected generation was 'elite'."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox#Experiment

PanLin · May 19

20 hours ago, Jult said:

1. Which variety is 100% Cultivation?

So I think it's more nebulous than that (because of course it is; everything in the Cosmere is), but that the double eye diagram implies three 'tiers' of Radiant:

Primary: almost purely aligned to one Shard (Bondsmith and Truthwatcher)
Secondary: still aligned to one Shard, but with more influence from the other
Tertiary: equally influenced by both Shards, with more abstract concepts/philosophies

I created this diagram in another thread to help visualise what I mean. There also seems to be a general pattern of Honor-leaning Radiants focusing more on Connection and Cultivation-leaning Radiants focusing more on Identity, but that isn't the important bit here.

20 hours ago, Jult said:

I know the obvious answer is Cultivationspren. But is it the correct answer? Mistspren bother me so much that I could probably make a topic about them alone..

They are the least humanoid in the Cognitive Realm and can even take fully non-human shape.

Truthwatchers get an extra special spot in the Double Eye.

Truthwatcher powers feel more aligned to Cultivation than Edgedancers (future-sight > Abrasion).

They seem the most open to Sja-Anat's Enlightenment (perhaps because they have no Honor in them).

Plus, mists don't seem that common on Roshar. But mists do have some larger Cosmere significance (Vax and Scadrial).

I agree! I think Mistspren are the closest candidate for Cultivation's 'true' spren, and the Cultivationspren and Cryptics are both mostly (but not entirely) aligned to Cultivation.

The naming of spren seems to be partially up to the spren and partially based on the perception of Rosharans, as indicated by these WoBs:

So there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know "This is what defines an honorspren".

But the spren you are running into are all *inaudible* of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able to be *inaudible*.

Writing for Charity Conference (March 17, 2012)

RAFO.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

(In the above WoB, Sanderson refuses to comment on which Shard Cryptics are associated with, which seems a weird thing to RAFO, considering both Cultivationspren and Honorspren exist. To me, that implies there's something deeper going on and that we shouldn't put too much stock into what names spren and humans give to the different spren)

Yeah, cultivated. *laughter*

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

20 hours ago, Jult said:

2. Honorspren are not 100% Honor

That's it. That's the note. I was under the impression that they were 100% Honor, but he says "almost". It was news to me, so maybe it's news to you too.

Yep, same deal. I'd wager they're close, like maybe even 95%, but none of the Radiant spren are purely of one Shard, like how Seons are almost but not entirely chunks of Devotion.

20 hours ago, Jult said:

3. Did they ever create the tenth variety Kor was envisioning?

My gut instinct is to point at the Bondsmith spren. They aren't affected by people's perception of them; which was one of Kor's main goals for the tenth variety. And Brandon has called the 3 of them one "kind" of spren before (WoB). But also consider:

They aren't original creations - they're born of Wind, Stone, and Night. Which feels like they shouldn't count to me.

Tanavast and Kor didn't create them together. We see Tanavast imprint himself onto the storm while Kor is off-planet.

The Sibling and Stormfather seem nearly incapable of change - which feels like it doesn't meet Kor's vision.

I know Tanavast got distracted and left after the 9th variety was completed. If I were Kor, I probably wouldn't have left the job unfinished. I would have created a tenth without Tanavast.

I essentially agree with this, too. Honorspren and Cultivationspren occupy the same (but mirrored) relational space in the double eye. Bondsmiths require a bond with a special class of spren, so the natural (imo) conclusion is that, originally, Honor intended to create a Radiant spren equivalent to mistspren but never finished the job, so the gap was filled when H+C created the three special spren.

I don't think it's quite as straightforward as saying that Cultivation created the missing spren (because she didn't; the Stormfather and the Sibling both contain Honor's essence too), but more that Cultivation used those special spren to fill the gap in the Radiant model. We know she was responsible for the oaths/ideals, and therefore was capable of modifying the original Radiant model as defined by Honor.

Jult · May 19

15 hours ago, Master_Moridin said:

Truthwatcher position comes out of the Herald order

There was originally going to be more to their position on the chart, but Brandon felt he was getting too into the weeds:

Quote

TGJack

The Truthwatchers and Bondsmiths are depicted separate from the other Orders in that neat little chart. Why is that? I get that the Bondsmiths are special, but why are the Truthwatchers beneath them, in the middle? And is there a reasoning behind how the other Orders are placed, beyond just what surge they share?

Brandon Sanderson

So, yes and originally I had a lot more with this chart that was going to be meaningful for the magic system and things like that. And it turns out this was way too complicated to work into the book. You can maybe see some of it in Way of Kings Prime. I can't remember how much of it's in there, but at the end of the day, when I was building it, I'm like, "I am... this is one of those times where I'm doing a little too much, getting too much into the weeds," so to speak. But you can, you will be able to... See, it's tricky because you're gonna be seeing a lot of Renarin version of Truthwatchers and less of other version of Truthwatchers. But let's say that Truthwatchers have some sort of abilities relating to Cognitive and Spiritual Realm set in a similar way to Bondsmiths, and because of that they were often kind of opposed but aligned, and the chart is a human construction trying to explain things—much as the same way that the Allomantic chart is—and because of that, they're responding to things that have happened, that are partially cultural partially, part of the magic and they built the charts, if that makes sense.
YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

My feeling is that, despite him not committing to it, there's still something important about Truthwatchers compared to the other orders in his head.

15 hours ago, Master_Moridin said:

the Enlightened mistspren are a mix of Honor and Odium.

They might be. I know the Enlightened Cryptic and Inkspren that we saw in WaT had Honor in them. But I think that's because normal Cryptics and Inkspren were made by Honor. If Mistspren are the one variety that Kor created by herself, then normal Mistspren would have no Honor. And neither would enlightened ones.

1 hour ago, PanLin said:

Yep, same deal. I'd wager they're close, like maybe even 95%, but none of the Radiant spren are purely of one Shard, like how Seons are almost but not entirely chunks of Devotion.

See but I would interpret this bit:

Quote

WE STARTED WITH THE FIRST SEVEN, THEN ONE VARIETY WAS BORN OF KOR ALONE.

to say that one of the Radiant spren is purely of Cultivation (though their ability to use Stormlight admittedly raises some questions). I think that variety will be very important. Because it should be safe from Retribution's influence even without the protection of the Oathpact. Which might be a point in favor of Cultivationspren, since most of the Mistspren we know are corrupted. But I can't shake the idea that Mistspren matter more.

1 hour ago, PanLin said:

I created this diagram in another thread to help visualise what I mean. There also seems to be a general pattern of Honor-leaning Radiants focusing more on Connection and Cultivation-leaning Radiants focusing more on Identity, but that isn't the important bit here.

I remember this! I'm pretty sure it was the start of my descent into this Mistspren rabbit hole.

Master_Moridin · May 20

11 hours ago, Jult said:

They might be. I know the Enlightened Cryptic and Inkspren that we saw in WaT had Honor in them. But I think that's because normal Cryptics and Inkspren were made by Honor. If Mistspren are the one variety that Kor created by herself, then normal Mistspren would have no Honor. And neither would enlightened ones.

They *are*. They talk about it in the book when discussing being able to use anti-Stormlight to hurt Enlightened spren.

Quote

"I thought," Rlain said to a slow, calm rhythm, "that Glys and Tumi were his. Voidlight."
"They're a mix," Renarin said. "Glys says ... something about a Rhythm of War..."

**LewsTherinTelescope** · May 20

17 hours ago, Jult said:

If Mistspren are the one variety that Kor created by herself, then normal Mistspren would have no Honor. And neither would enlightened ones.

In addition to Moridin's quote, we get this in Rhythm of War:

Quote

The spren had been watching him, from the heart of a cremling. Rlain and Venli had mistaken Tumi for a Voidspren, but he wasn't exactly the same thing. Once an ordinary mistspren, Tumi had let Sja-anat touch him, and in so doing make him into something new. A spren of both Honor and Odium.

Your point about them being in the center of the Double Eye is definitely interesting, and as the WoB you included says, their powers are different in ways that are similar to how Bondsmith powers are different. So there does seem to be something special about them, but it doesn't sound like being pure Cultivation is it.

17 hours ago, Jult said:

(though their ability to use Stormlight admittedly raises some questions)

It's also weird that Honor was able to impose oaths on that order's bonds. I mean, the book says one is purely of Cultivation while it's careful to say "almost" for honorspren, so presumably one is really purely of Cultivation, but something sorta odd is going on there.

19 hours ago, PanLin said:

We know she was responsible for the oaths/ideals

Could you elaborate on this? In Tanavast's flashbacks we see that he made the oaths, but I'm not sure if you're referring to something else on top of that.

Jult · May 20

11 hours ago, Master_Moridin said:

They *are*. They talk about it in the book when discussing being able to use anti-Stormlight to hurt Enlightened spren.

Ah well there goes that theory. I guess it's Cultivationspren after all. Thank you for finding the quote.

4 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

In addition to Moridin's quote, we get this in Rhythm of War:

Quote

The spren had been watching him, from the heart of a cremling. Rlain and Venli had mistaken Tumi for a Voidspren, but he wasn't exactly the same thing. Once an ordinary mistspren, Tumi had let Sja-anat touch him, and in so doing make him into something new. A spren of both Honor and Odium.

Your point about them being in the center of the Double Eye is definitely interesting, and as the WoB you included says, their powers are different in ways that are similar to how Bondsmith powers are different. So there does seem to be something special about them, but it doesn't sound like being pure Cultivation is it.

And thanks to you as well. Yeah, I'm definitely going to keep looking for oddities related to Mistspren/Truthwatchers, but it looks like I was chasing the wrong lead.

4 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

It's also weird that Honor was able to impose oaths on that order's bonds. I mean, the book says one is purely of Cultivation while it's careful to say "almost" for honorspren, so presumably one is really purely of Cultivation, but something sorta odd is going on there.

I would assume Cultivation consented to letting her spren be bound. The oaths were kind of her idea anyway. I'm not sure if this is the same section PanLin was referring to but it might be. WaT 113:

Quote

"WE CAN INTERACT," KOR SAID. "IF WE HAVE LIMITS."
"WHAT LIMITS DO YOU PROPOSE?" RAYSE ASKED.

SHE HELD OUT HER HAND, AND EQUATIONS APPEARED ABOVE IT, MANIFEST IN NOTATIONS WE COULD INSTANTLY UNDERSTAND. ONLY A PORTION OF OUR POWERS COULD BE GRANTED TO MORTALS - WITHIN DISTINCT CONTROLS. THERE WAS VERSATILITY, I SAW, AND GENIUS IN HOW IT WAS PRESENTED. ONE COULD GRANT GREAT POWERS TO INDIVIDUALS, IF THEY WERE WILLING TO BEND TO DIVINE RULES AS WE DID. OR INSTEAD, LESSER POWER COULD BE GIVEN INDISCRIMINANTLY TO MANY.

Looking at this now, it almost feels like direct manipulation of Tanner and Rayse from Kor. She gave them two options for meting out powers, and one was obviously designed to appeal to Honor.

Another thing worth noting from that chapter is that Kor also enters this agreement. I feel like it's often characterized as a pact between Honor and Odium that she just happened to be there for. But it's her pact too.

Frustration · May 20

13 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

It's also weird that Honor was able to impose oaths on that order's bonds. I mean, the book says one is purely of Cultivation while it's careful to say "almost" for honorspren, so presumably one is really purely of Cultivation, but something sorta odd is going on there.

I think it's because it's Honor's system.

Personally I'm of the opinion that all of the Radiant spren, including Honorspren could also preform a similar role in whatever system is tied to Cultivation, though what that would be I have no idea.

PanLin · May 21

On 5/20/2026 at 8:27 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Could you elaborate on this? In Tanavast's flashbacks we see that he made the oaths, but I'm not sure if you're referring to something else on top of that.

Ah, my wording was a bit heavy handed—iirc, the Oaths were set up with input from Honor, Cultivation and Ishar after the radiant spren were inspired by the Heralds and started created Radiants. From the wiki:

Spoiler

The spren formed bonds with the mankind to give them Surgebinding abilities.^[22] Honor was surprised by their coming, because he hadn't taught it to his Heralds.^[22] While he did not consciously choose his Knights, with them being chosen by spren, he did, alongside Cultivation and the advice of Ishar, formulate their system of oaths.^[38]

It seems that Honor only intended to give Surgebinding to the people involved with the Oathpact, whom he could directly judge and vet. Then, when Radiants started appearing, he got Cultivation involved to help define rules and progression. The Heralds were a static "here's the maximum power all in one go", where Radiants gain power over time, which implies that aspect came from either Cultivation, Ishar, the spren themselves, or a combined effort from everyone involved.

In my head, I have a tendency to simplify that to "Honor created the Heralds and initial oaths/rules, Cultivation created the progression system of ideals", which isn't quite accurate, my bad

On 5/19/2026 at 2:32 PM, Jult said:

See but I would interpret this bit:

Quote

WE STARTED WITH THE FIRST SEVEN, THEN ONE VARIETY WAS BORN OF KOR ALONE.

to say that one of the Radiant spren is purely of Cultivation (though their ability to use Stormlight admittedly raises some questions). I think that variety will be very important. Because it should be safe from Retribution's influence even without the protection of the Oathpact. Which might be a point in favor of Cultivationspren, since most of the Mistspren we know are corrupted. But I can't shake the idea that Mistspren matter more.

Yeah ok, so that raises another question, especially with the quote @Master_Moridin shared:

On 5/20/2026 at 2:03 AM, Master_Moridin said:

They *are*. They talk about it in the book when discussing being able to use anti-Stormlight to hurt Enlightened spren.

Quote

"I thought," Rlain said to a slow, calm rhythm, "that Glys and Tumi were his. Voidlight."
"They're a mix," Renarin said. "Glys says ... something about a Rhythm of War..."

And a related WoB:

Spoiler

Zas678 (paraphrased)

A question related to that. There's an idea going around that all the spren that can Nahel Bond, all Knight Radiant spren are called honorspren, and then Nohadon talks specifically about honorspren. Is that the case? You know, is it just the Windrunner spren, or is it all the spren?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

I'm going to deal with this in the next book. So I'll just go ahead and let it be a literal RAFO. It is coming.

*interruption, leading Brandon to lose his train of though*

So what we are dealing with here is that all spren are indeed all pieces of the one who has gone, so those spren are all- except the Windrunner spren, the spren like Syl, have certain umm.

Zas678 (paraphrased)

Nohadon mentioned that "All the spren aren't as discerning as honorspren."

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

So there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know "This is what defines an honorspren".

But the spren you are running into are all *inaudible* of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able to be *inaudible*.

Writing for Charity Conference (March 17, 2012)

It feels to me that the only way to reconcile all of this is to say:

All spren on Roshar have at least some of Honor and Cultivation in them (I suspect the Oathpact prevented Odium being included in this, despite his rhythm being accepted by Roshar)
When Renarin says, "Glys says ... something about a Rhythm of War...", I think there's a bit of unreliable narrator going on here. The Rhythm of War is the only combined rhythm that's been directly experimented with, but Glys and Tumi actually contain all three Shards (and would therefore be susceptible to any of the three anti-Lights), something that does seem to be supported by the wiki:

Spoiler

Sja-anat's touch has the ability to corrupt spren that she comes into contact with, injecting them with Voidlight.^[2]^[13] Sja-anat refers to this process as Enlightening.^[11] Spren affected by Sja-anat begin to carry the taint of Odium,^[14] and in rare cases can even grant abilities associated with Odium's power,^[15]^[16] though the extent of his influence on the affected spren is unknown.

On 5/20/2026 at 1:38 PM, Jult said:

On 5/20/2026 at 2:03 AM, Master_Moridin said:

They *are*. They talk about it in the book when discussing being able to use anti-Stormlight to hurt Enlightened spren.

Ah well there goes that theory. I guess it's Cultivationspren after all. Thank you for finding the quote.

Not necessarily, if we take the above into account! Seeing as Surgebinding carries the touch of both Honor and Cultivation, it could even be that, regardless of whose essence a spren is made from, they become a mixture of Honor and Cultvation simply by being a Radiant spren and possessing the ability to grant Radiant Surgebinding.

Excuse the terrible diagrams, but everything we've seen about spren is more complicated and interconnected. I really think that Radiant spren are of both H+C, and when someone says something like "A spren of both Honor and Odium", it's less an absolute and more like:

Spoiler

So technically, yes, Glys is of Honor and Odium, and the person saying that is highlighting those two Shards as the ones they consider to be the most important when talking about Radiant spren, but kind of dismissing/forgetting Cultivation's influence (which is exactly what Cultivation wants). Taking "both Honor and Odium" to mean there's no influence from Cultivation would go directly against other evidence in the books and WoBs like this one:

Spoiler

Questioner

Hi. I have two questions about the Cosmere. The first one is if a Radiant can have a bond with two spren, and the other one is if Truthwatcher spren are related directly with Cultivation or the Nightwatcher?

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, so RAFO on if a Knight Radiant can have two spren. But the second question was, "Are spren of Cultivation?" One more time?

Questioner

If the spren of the Truthwatchers are related directly with Cultivation or the Nightwatcher? Or both?

Brandon Sanderson

So, most of the sapient spren that form the Orders of Knights Radiant are related to a mixture of Honor and Cultivation. Some lean one direction much more than the other, and the spren of the Truthwatchers leans toward Cultivation.

Footnote: Brandon has previously said that it's theoretically possible to bond two spren.
EuroCon 2016 (Nov. 5, 2016)

On 5/20/2026 at 1:38 PM, Jult said:

I would assume Cultivation consented to letting her spren be bound. The oaths were kind of her idea anyway. I'm not sure if this is the same section PanLin was referring to but it might be. WaT 113:

Quote

"WE CAN INTERACT," KOR SAID. "IF WE HAVE LIMITS."
"WHAT LIMITS DO YOU PROPOSE?" RAYSE ASKED.

SHE HELD OUT HER HAND, AND EQUATIONS APPEARED ABOVE IT, MANIFEST IN NOTATIONS WE COULD INSTANTLY UNDERSTAND. ONLY A PORTION OF OUR POWERS COULD BE GRANTED TO MORTALS - WITHIN DISTINCT CONTROLS. THERE WAS VERSATILITY, I SAW, AND GENIUS IN HOW IT WAS PRESENTED. ONE COULD GRANT GREAT POWERS TO INDIVIDUALS, IF THEY WERE WILLING TO BEND TO DIVINE RULES AS WE DID. OR INSTEAD, LESSER POWER COULD BE GIVEN INDISCRIMINANTLY TO MANY.

Looking at this now, it almost feels like direct manipulation of Tanner and Rayse from Kor. She gave them two options for meting out powers, and one was obviously designed to appeal to Honor.

Another thing worth noting from that chapter is that Kor also enters this agreement. I feel like it's often characterized as a pact between Honor and Odium that she just happened to be there for. But it's her pact too.

It certainly was, thanks!

This speaks to a wider piece of context that I think people underestimate sometimes—Cultivation is sneaky as hell. Just like Taravangian convinced people he was just a frail, emotional, harmless old man, part of Cultivation's approach to her plans is preventing people from knowing anything, including whether she's involved or to what extent. Whenever she's even remotely involved with something, we should assume that she has more influence than she lets on, and that her involvement furthers plans of hers of which we're not even aware.

On 5/19/2026 at 2:32 PM, Jult said:

I remember this! I'm pretty sure it was the start of my descent into this Mistspren rabbit hole.

Oh neat, I'm glad! Long may the rabbit hole continue.

Edited May 21 by PanLin

Master_Moridin · May 22

12 hours ago, PanLin said:

It seems that Honor only intended to give Surgebinding to the people involved with the Oathpact, whom he could directly judge and vet. Then, when Radiants started appearing, he got Cultivation involved to help define rules and progression. The Heralds were a static "here's the maximum power all in one go", where Radiants gain power over time, which implies that aspect came from either Cultivation, Ishar, the spren themselves, or a combined effort from everyone involved

So, the sequence of events here is:

Honor creates the Heralds
Honor, Cultivation, and Odium make the pact that limits how much power they can give their followers in proportion to how tightly bound those followers are by divine law.
The spren start bonding people and making new Surgebinders, so with Ishar's guidance Honor crafts the oaths to maximize their abilities

12 hours ago, PanLin said:

It feels to me that the only way to reconcile all of this is to say:

I'm confused about what is is that needs to be reconciled? Nothing we have on the Radiant spren contradicts what WaT says about one of the varieties being of Cultivation alone, and that the Enlightened mistspren are of Honor and Odium?

The Creation of True Spren

Recommended Posts

Master_Moridin he/him

ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)

PanLin they/he

Dragon13

Brandon Sanderson

Dragon13

Brandon Sanderson

Dragon13

Brandon Sanderson

Zas678 (paraphrased)

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Zas678 (paraphrased)

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

EHyde

Brandon Sanderson

EHyde

Brandon Sanderson

EHyde

Brandon Sanderson

EHyde

Brandon Sanderson

WeiryWriter

Brandon Sanderson

WeiryWriter

Brandon Sanderson

WeiryWriter

Brandon Sanderson

WeiryWriter

Brandon Sanderson

WeiryWriter

Brandon Sanderson

WeiryWriter

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Billy Todd, Moderator

Brandon Sanderson

Billy Todd, Moderator

Brandon Sanderson

Billy Todd, Moderator

Brandon Sanderson

TGJack

Brandon Sanderson

Master_Moridin he/him

PanLin they/he

Zas678 (paraphrased)

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Zas678 (paraphrased)

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Master_Moridin he/him

Create an account or sign in to comment

Create an account

Sign in

Recently Browsing 0 members