Could the Lord Ruler effect someone wearing a shardplate helm with emotional allomancy?

[Colors]

We know that in general that wearing a shardplate helm would help protect the wearer from emotional allomancy. However, often in the cosmere it's not a black and white matter of whether something can be done, or can't be done, but instead a matter of how powerful they need to be, or how much investiture is needed. For example, a normal misting cannot pierce a coppercloud, but an Inquisitor with additional bronze spikes can, and the Lord Ruler easily can. Likewise, a coppercloud can block a brass/zinc misting, but not emotional allomancy from the Lord Ruler. Metal cannot be easily effected by allomantic steel/iron if it pierces a person's body, and metalminds are extremely hard to push against, but Mist-fueled Vin was able to do so. So on, and so forth.

So, although we know that a shardplate helm would block a normal level of emotional allomancy, does it not stand to reason that someone as powerful as the Lord Ruler, whose soothing is shown to be many, many times over more powerful than normal base level emotional allomancy, would be able to have some effect on the person regardless of their shardplate?

[Qianweilian He/him]

26 minutes ago, Colors said:

So, although we know that a shardplate helm would block a normal level of emotional allomancy, does it not stand to reason that someone as powerful as the Lord Ruler, whose soothing is shown to be many, many times over more powerful than normal base level emotional allomancy, would be able to have some effect on the person regardless of their shardplate?

This is the problem. We don't really have a great reference for how powerful TLR's allomancy actually was. We know he was vastly powerful, but shardplate is incredibly invested.

[alder24]

40 minutes ago, Colors said:

So, although we know that a shardplate helm would block a normal level of emotional allomancy, does it not stand to reason that someone as powerful as the Lord Ruler, whose soothing is shown to be many, many times over more powerful than normal base level emotional allomancy, would be able to have some effect on the person regardless of their shardplate?

Unlikely, but there is a chance. Shardplates are pure investiture so affecting them with Allomancy is extremely hard. Here are two WoBs on this matter, one said it might be possible with duralumin, other said that only with the full power of the Well of Ascension can an Allomancer push a Shardplate. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Would Allomancy affect Shardplate or Shardblades?

Brandon Sanderson

It cannot affected Shardblades. Well, "cannot" is a strong word. Things with innate investiture are much more difficult to affect with any of the magics at all. Which is why it's very hard, for instance-- Szeth is not able to bind people, or Lash people wearing Shardplate to the ceiling. In the same Allomancy would not be able to Push on it without some help. Duralumin and a really strong [Steel]Push could probably do it. 

Questioner

I was just wondering if it's actually metal.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yes. It is metal-ish... it is metal enough for Allomancy to work on it.

Words of Radiance Washington, DC signing (March 20, 2014)

 

Spoiler

Trae Cooper (paraphrased)

Why are Invested objects like metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes able to be Pushed and Pulled on, but Shardblades and Shardplate, which are also invested, are not susceptible to Pushing and Pulling?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There were a few concepts that he outlined in answering this question.

1.) The ability to Push/Pull an Invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the Investiture.

2.) Further, Invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a Hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul.

This further explains why Vin required more than normal power to Push/Pull the metalminds from the Lord Ruler, because of their proximity to his soul, via the Spiritual Realm.

3.) The amount of Investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Sel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that Hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of Investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades.

Brandon said that theoretically you can Push/Pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could Push/Pull Shardblades/Plate.

DragonCon 2012 (Sept. 4, 2012)

 

[Jult]

21 hours ago, Colors said:

We know that in general that wearing a shardplate helm would help protect the wearer from emotional allomancy. However, often in the cosmere it's not a black and white matter of whether something can be done, or can't be done, but instead a matter of how powerful they need to be, or how much investiture is needed. For example, a normal misting cannot pierce a coppercloud, but an Inquisitor with additional bronze spikes can, and the Lord Ruler easily can. Likewise, a coppercloud can block a brass/zinc misting, but not emotional allomancy from the Lord Ruler. Metal cannot be easily effected by allomantic steel/iron if it pierces a person's body, and metalminds are extremely hard to push against, but Mist-fueled Vin was able to do so. So on, and so forth.

So, although we know that a shardplate helm would block a normal level of emotional allomancy, does it not stand to reason that someone as powerful as the Lord Ruler, whose soothing is shown to be many, many times over more powerful than normal base level emotional allomancy, would be able to have some effect on the person regardless of their shardplate?

Ooh I was just recently looking into something kind of related. I've been pondering Emotional abilities on Roshar. We don't see any from the Surges (besides some Connection shenanigans) but we do see the Thrill and the Revel from the Unmade. Plus, Odium himself does some manipulation here and there.

IF (and it's a big "if") we assume that these abilities function in a similar way to Emotional Allomancy... Then I think you'll be interested in revisiting the chapters of Oathbringer where Dalinar attacks Rathalas. To summarize:

He is clearly stated to be feeling the Thrill at the beginning of Chapter 75 while wearing his helmet. But he retains a good amount of self-control - to the point that he realizes he's been tricked and starts to order his men to retreat. At that exact moment of signaling his men, an explosion hits him so hard that his helmet shatters. Soon after he completely reds out... and when he recovers his senses, his Shardplate is so wrecked he doesn't even wear it for the rest of the assault on Rathalas... And well... we know what happened in Rathalas next.

It's not ironclad proof. There were certainly other factors in play that would have amped him up. But it is interesting that his helmet shatters before he fully loses control.

When I have time, I might flip through the books to try and find each POV experience with the Thrill and see who had their helmets on or not.

More on-topic... If Nergaoul's influence could pierce Shardplate.. I'd imagine Rashek's could too. But Dalinar was a normal human wearing deadplate in the scene above. Living Plate may be a different story. And even just being Radiant could have some impact too.

Edited April 16 by Jult
Typo

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, Colors said:

Likewise, a coppercloud can block a brass/zinc misting, but not emotional allomancy from the Lord Ruler.

Others have answered the primary question, but for the sake of completeness please note that the above is not actually correct. We do not know if Rashek could purposefully push or pull emotions of somebody burning Copper, but we do know that Kelsier and Clubs were unaffected. (HoA Spoilers)

Spoiler

Vin was only affected when they were not, because her Hemalurgic Spike makes her extra sensitive to emotional allomancy - the very same way that Kandra, Koloss and other hemalurgic creatures are affected by Brass and Zinc. 

 

[Colors]

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Others have answered the primary question, but for the sake of completeness please note that the above is not actually correct. We do not know if Rashek could purposefully push or pull emotions of somebody burning Copper, but we do know that Kelsier and Clubs were unaffected. (HoA Spoilers)

  Reveal hidden contents

Vin was only affected when they were not, because her Hemalurgic Spike makes her extra sensitive to emotional allomancy - the very same way that Kandra, Koloss and other hemalurgic creatures are affected by Brass and Zinc. 

 

Huh, it's been years since I've read the scene, but I was almost certain that Vin wasn't the only one affected. 

[Treamayne]

12 minutes ago, Colors said:

Huh, it's been years since I've read the scene, but I was almost certain that Vin wasn't the only one affected. 

TFE Ch 27:

Spoiler

“I don’t know what he is—but I think he’s more like a man than he is a god. The words in that logbook… they’re the words of a regular person. His real power comes from his armies and his wealth. If we remove them, he won’t be able to do anything to stop his empire from collapsing.”

Vin frowned. “He might not be a god, but… he’s something, Kelsier. Something different. Today, when he was in the square, I could feel his touch on my emotions even when I was burning copper.”

“That’s not possible, Vin,” Kelsier said with a shake of his head. 

So, Kelsier did not feel TLR through his Copper, but in CH 26 Vin does:

Spoiler

Then she felt it. The oppressive numbness, like a massive blanket pressing down, choking away her air, stealing her will. She immediately burned copper. Yet, like before, she swore that she could feel the Lord Ruler’s Soothing despite the metal. She sensed him coming closer, trying to make her lose all will, all desire, all strength of emotion.

“He’s coming,” Spook whispered, crouching down beside her.

 

But, you are correct, everybody without copper was affected - TFE Ch 26:

Spoiler

“He’s so powerful,” Breeze said. “Even at my best, I can only Soothe a couple hundred men. There have to be tens of thousands of people here!”

Spook looked over the rim of the rooftop. “It makes me want to fall. To just let go… ”

 

Edited April 16 by Treamayne

[GG0z He/Him]

Considering that the Lord Ruler is an incredibly powerful Compounder, I think that the Lord Ruler’s emotional Allomancy could get through Shardplate. I think it also depends if the Plate is living or not, since I am pretty sure that living Plate is more Invested than dead Plate. Maybe how many oaths the Radiant has sworn also matters, since every oath strengthens the Connection between Spren and Radiant, increasing the Radiant’s overall power.

[Frustration]

Considering that at fourth ideal Radiants can ignore the suppression of the Sibling, I say TLR doesn't stand a chance of using emotional allomancy on them.

Edited April 17 by Frustration