[Discuss] Jasnah: An analysis of a monster

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

That's like saying I should have a plan to assassinate my employer if I think they plan on firing me. Fen was every bit as much of a threat to Jasnah as my employer is to me, and I have every bit as much reason to suspect my employer to turn on me as Jasnah did Fen.

You know, I could respond to this in a lot of ways. But I think the best one is this: Yes, you should be plotting to kill your employer. No, I will not elaborate on this.

[Myst He/Him]

Just going to pop in to say that after reading through this I’m falling in the side of Frustration, but I would say that Jasnah is getting better.

WaT spoilers?

Spoiler

Basically, of the little segments of the in-cosmere book knights of wind and truth, it seems Jasnah took in the girl, and maybe Szeth as well. Which makes me feel like perhaps she’s getting better about caring about others

That said, I can also see the argument that that event was of historical significance and Jasnah just wanted to have first-hand accounts of it. I choose to believe otherwise.

Anyways, this is a very opinionated discussion on what counts as murder vs killing, where the line between attempted murder and intent to murder is, and a bit of other stuff as well. Ultimately, everyone is arguing from a different base of assumptions and values that aren’t going to change via this discussion. Because it’s one of morality, what one person values over another isn’t something that’s easily changed. As such, I personally feel that this discussion is basically a way to explain ideas, and not really an argument, because neither side is going to “win”

Thats my thoughts, I’m sure I haven’t contributed much to this, I’m not sure I could anyways. 

[Nitpicking]

On 3/20/2026 at 11:23 AM, alder24 said:

She was deceiving herself into believing that she would do everything that's necessary for the greater good, while in reality she couldn't withstand the pain of doing so when it comes to her close ones. Her family is in fact irreplaceable, unlike Frustration has claimed. 

Brandon being a good writer, we then see Taravangian fail the same test, saving his own homeland and family by moving Kharbranth to the Spiritual Realm. Will it be Jasnah who reveals his hypocrisy?

[alder24]

21 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

I do not know how to explain to people this very simple fact: Yes, in war, you do plan to deal with enemies who are turned against you. What if they surrender due to some unforeseen attack on their vital personal interests? If Vichy France got control of the French Navy and was then going to use it to attack the British, would not the British command want for plans to defeat their former ally? Planning for such things is prudence. Of course it is a problem if such plans are suddenly introduced during a debate about personal character, but the truth in that scene is that Jasnah had mere schemes while Taravangian had assassins in the wings to ensure he could not lose.

It might be a strategically correct action to take, but it still doesn't make it morally or politically right. The example of Vichy France isn't that good considering that they were de facto a puppet state of Germany in control of the French navy, thus it did pose a threat to allies and that's when the plan to attack them was drafted. But the British attack was still a betrayal and strained relations between them and France. Strategically a good choice, but this doesn't make it moral. But who can blame the British, they have a tendency to blow up docked ships of a neutral party so they just couldn't resist. 

21 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

Furthermore, Dalinar was not ready enough for betrayal. His council failed to notice or undo the defection of the Azish kings. Adolin managed to salvage this because he managed to gain a platoon of shardbearers at the last minute, but that was necessary because of the reinforcements failing to arrive due to a lack of suspicion of possible treason.

That's a different betrayal from Taravangian's one that nobody could have predicted since nobody could have known at that time that Rayse would be replaced by Taravangian. And even if Dalinar knew about it beforehand, there was nothing he could have done as the problem lied between the Azish emperor and the treatment of his subjects. Assassinating them all would certainly not be the solution. 

 

20 hours ago, Frustration said:

I had decided to not continue here, but for you my friend I will make an exception.

Well thank you. I do not intend to be deeply engaged in this discussion as others has said enough, I just wanted to point out how her past trauma caused her trust issues and how WaT recontextualized all her actions discussed here. 

20 hours ago, Frustration said:

I don't consider killing someone because they MIGHT be destabalizing to be either logical nor moral. Now if Jasnah had known about Aesudan's secret societies and that she would use Yelig-nar I could see your point, but she had no idea about that.

Yes, the reasons for assassinating Aesudan at that time were a bit far-fatched and I do agree that such plans are not moral and that's why she didn't do it in the end and chose to spy on her instead. But there was more than enough evidence not to trust Aesudan so while I don't think it was moral, I also don't think it was wrong to spy and plan to kill her if she starts causing trouble.

20 hours ago, Frustration said:

Cold blooded implies some level of innocence to them.

Entrapment as discussed in the other thread on the footpads does not apply as Jasnah would need to encourage them to do something they otherwise weren't intending to do. Their repeated assaults in that alleyway proves that it was something they had already been doing. To call what Jasnah did as entrapment would eliminate all sting operations as entrapment as well.

And treating them like educational tools was exactly what public executions were.

No, cold blooded implies Jasnah had the intent to kill them from the very beginning. She went out of her way to find anyone willing to rob her just so she could kill them using self-defence as her justification. She didn't even know that those people were the same ones who had robbed people in that region before, they could have been completely unrelated and innocent up to that point. She didn't know at all who they were and her right to self-defence disappeared the moment she killed the first robber, after which the three others fled in terror. Nothing about what she did was moral. I'm not a lawyer and I don't know US law, but this whole situation is so bad that you could probably argue she committed 1st degree murder on at least 3 counts. She went out into the streets hunting for someone to kill - that's just wrong no matter how you phrase it. 

Public executions were a punishment for people lawfully sentenced to death and yes, an educational tool as well. However, being a vigilante is not legal and she's not a Skybreaker to act as an executioner.

20 hours ago, Frustration said:

I'd disagree, if Ivory hadn't bonded Jasnah and dropped her into the CR she would have killed Aesudan, her stated reason for not doing so was that she was too confused to try upending things at that moment. Afterwards she had other things to deal with. Renarin managed to save himself, but as his vision showed Jasnah was more than willing to kill him.

And I disagree with you. It's not because of Ivory, WaR prologue said she wasn't certain if Aesudan was a threat to her family worthy of assassination. But WaT clearly states that her true reason was because she unconsciously knew it was wrong and out of love she decided not to. She loved her brother too much to hurt unnecessarily and Aesudan was a part of her family, even if she didn't like her that much. And while Renarin's vision showed her killing him, she didn't do it for the same reasons. Judging someone for actions they didn't commit just isn't right.  And her plans to kill both Aesudan and Renarin were born out of her trauma, which is something I can't even blame her for. 

[Frustration]

On 3/22/2026 at 8:33 AM, alder24 said:

Well thank you. I do not intend to be deeply engaged in this discussion as others has said enough, I just wanted to point out how her past trauma caused her trust issues and how WaT recontextualized all her actions discussed here. 

However long you're here for, I'm down for it.

On 3/22/2026 at 8:33 AM, alder24 said:

Yes, the reasons for assassinating Aesudan at that time were a bit far-fatched and I do agree that such plans are not moral and that's why she didn't do it in the end and chose to spy on her instead. But there was more than enough evidence not to trust Aesudan so while I don't think it was moral, I also don't think it was wrong to spy and plan to kill her if she starts causing trouble.

Spying I could see, however that wasn't Jasnah's initial plan.

On 3/22/2026 at 8:33 AM, alder24 said:

No, cold blooded implies Jasnah had the intent to kill them from the very beginning. She went out of her way to find anyone willing to rob her just so she could kill them using self-defence as her justification. She didn't even know that those people were the same ones who had robbed people in that region before, they could have been completely unrelated and innocent up to that point. She didn't know at all who they were and her right to self-defence disappeared the moment she killed the first robber, after which the three others fled in terror. Nothing about what she did was moral. I'm not a lawyer and I don't know US law, but this whole situation is so bad that you could probably argue she committed 1st degree murder on at least 3 counts. She went out into the streets hunting for someone to kill - that's just wrong no matter how you phrase it. 

And if no one attacked her she wouldn't have killed anyone. There's little substantive difference between this and going to Liss planning to assassinate Aesudan other than that the thieves attacked her.

On 3/22/2026 at 8:33 AM, alder24 said:

Public executions were a punishment for people lawfully sentenced to death and yes, an educational tool as well. However, being a vigilante is not legal and she's not a Skybreaker to act as an executioner.

Yes, and while it might not have been LEGAL, I see no moral difference between the country and an individual. If she had been a skybreaker would you have been okay with it?

On 3/22/2026 at 8:33 AM, alder24 said:

And I disagree with you. It's not because of Ivory, WaR prologue said she wasn't certain if Aesudan was a threat to her family worthy of assassination. But WaT clearly states that her true reason was because she unconsciously knew it was wrong and out of love she decided not to. She loved her brother too much to hurt unnecessarily and Aesudan was a part of her family, even if she didn't like her that much. And while Renarin's vision showed her killing him, she didn't do it for the same reasons. Judging someone for actions they didn't commit just isn't right.  And her plans to kill both Aesudan and Renarin were born out of her trauma, which is something I can't even blame her for. 

I don't remember her saying that it was for love of Elhokar, but even if in WaT she did say that, I don't think that had any actual bearing on her decision. During her PoV for WoR she doesn't once think on Elhokar's feelings during the situation, and this wouldn't be the first time Brandon has had characters misremember things on purpose.

Spoiler

TheQuentisentialYou

Why does Marasi's memory of the voice of "Death" or Marsh, change? From Alloy of Law to Bands of Mourning chapter 15?

Brandon Sanderson (Part 1/Part 2/Part 3)

This is a thing that drives Peter crazy. My research tells me that people change memories based on expectations and environment.

On occasion, you'll see me having characters miss-quote themselves, or remember events clearly wrong. I do this for realism.

(Though on occasion, it's just a mistake or lapse on my part. Those we fix. The rest drive my editors crazy.)

General Twitter 2016 (June 24, 2016)

 

On 3/22/2026 at 8:33 AM, alder24 said:

But who can blame the British, they have a tendency to blow up docked ships of a neutral party so they just couldn't resist. 

You're throwing shade at the British and didn't invite me?

[alder24]

20 hours ago, Frustration said:

And if no one attacked her she wouldn't have killed anyone. There's little substantive difference between this and going to Liss planning to assassinate Aesudan other than that the thieves attacked her.

So she would continue walking around town exposing her gemstones until someone would try to rob her. There is also a huge difference between actually killing 4 people and not killing Aesudan.

20 hours ago, Frustration said:

Yes, and while it might not have been LEGAL, I see no moral difference between the country and an individual. If she had been a skybreaker would you have been okay with it?

If a Skybreaker would do exactly what Jasnah did I would also criticize them. But that's not how Skybreakers do things. They try their best to find people who are proven to commit crimes and have all legal paperwork required for their execution. They know who they are searching for and what their crimes are. They don't just wake up and decide to kill some randoms in a dark alley while dragging a defenseless person with them like Jasnah did. 

20 hours ago, Frustration said:

I don't remember her saying that it was for love of Elhokar, but even if in WaT she did say that, I don't think that had any actual bearing on her decision. During her PoV for WoR she doesn't once think on Elhokar's feelings during the situation, and this wouldn't be the first time Brandon has had characters misremember things on purpose.

It's the quote from WaT I put in my first post. It literally says that Jasnah spared Aesudan out of love - so it was the decisive factor when she made the choice not to kill her, although she made it unconsciously at that time as she was not aware of her true feelings and so it wasn't shown in her thoughts in WoR prologue. My reasoning is that because it was said that Jasnah never liked Aesudan, she must have spared her because Elhokar did love her and would have been hurt, if Jasnah were to kill her and that's why I said she didn't do it out of love for him.

[Frustration]

On 3/24/2026 at 8:07 AM, alder24 said:

So she would continue walking around town exposing her gemstones until someone would try to rob her.

I'm honestly not sure about that. When they get back Jasnah says that she wanted those men gone specifically. However, even assuming that she would, if no one attacked her she wouldn't have killed anyone.

On 3/24/2026 at 8:07 AM, alder24 said:

If a Skybreaker would do exactly what Jasnah did I would also criticize them. But that's not how Skybreakers do things. They try their best to find people who are proven to commit crimes and have all legal paperwork required for their execution. They know who they are searching for and what their crimes are. They don't just wake up and decide to kill some randoms in a dark alley while dragging a defenseless person with them like Jasnah did. 

So what's the moral weight behind legal papers? And they weren't randoms, they were repeat offenders found in the act of the crime.

On 3/24/2026 at 8:07 AM, alder24 said:

It's the quote from WaT I put in my first post. It literally says that Jasnah spared Aesudan out of love - so it was the decisive factor when she made the choice not to kill her, although she made it unconsciously at that time as she was not aware of her true feelings and so it wasn't shown in her thoughts in WoR prologue. My reasoning is that because it was said that Jasnah never liked Aesudan, she must have spared her because Elhokar did love her and would have been hurt, if Jasnah were to kill her and that's why I said she didn't do it out of love for him.

I see where you are coming from there, even if I don't feel like it was reflected in WoR.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

So what's the moral weight behind legal papers? And they weren't randoms, they were repeat offenders found in the act of the crime.

The difference is not in papers, but in the work put into gaining those papers and finding those criminals. That's one of my main problems with what Jasnah did - she just left the palace searching for anyone to attack her, just so she could kill them. And yes, in her mind she wanted to kill those robbers from this alleyway, but she had no idea who they were as she did no prior investigation to figure out their identity. The people she killed might have been just some random opportunistic thieves tempted by her massive gemstones, who would have never committed that crime if she hadn't brandished her soulcaster and noble clothes left and right (even though the soulcaster was hidden up until the end, the light was visible through her cloaths). Of course that doesn't make their attempted theft any less wrong. She was just lucky that people she killed were actually the murderers she was looking for and even in the end, she still couldn't have known that for sure and that is something we must assume, but it's still possible real criminals got away. A Skybreaker would have found precisely who they were and what laws they'd broken before they would try to kill them, thus minimizing the possibility of hurting unrelated people.

The morality of this situation simply exceeds the question whether or not those criminals deserved to die (yes, they did), you have to judge Jasnah entire mentality and her actions leading to their death: her walking around town with murderous intent, not knowing who are the people she she was looking for, dragging defenceless Shallan along with her, recklessly risking her life for some stupid lesson, risking killing unrelated thieves and finally mercilessly killing those four footpads even when they run away, without even thinking if there were other ways in which she could have handled this situation. She could have easily immobilized them and handed them over to local authorities and if she was worried about corruption, she could have involved palace guards, who would have investigated corruption further (Skybreakers would have punished corrupted officials too btw, Jasnah just did a sloppy job). The end result would have been the same, but she didn't even think about other possibilities than murder, she wanted to play the role of judge, jury and executioner, a vigilante outside of the law and the restrictions it provides in order to prevent innocent people from injustice. 

Her desire to prevent further murders and punish those responsible for them was just and morally good, however, her actions are just extremely immoral and wrong, exposing her twisted sense of morality and her dangerous philosophy "the end justifies the means," which is in total opposition to the First Ideal she'd sworn. And while her plans to assassinate Aesudan, Renarin and Fen are also morally wrong, in the end she didn't kill any of them, thus those actions pale in comparison to what she did in that alleyway.

[teknopathetic he/him]

I still wonder if Jasnah took the deal with Odium. It is a good deal. The deal makes logical sense. And I feel Taravangian wouldn't have offered the deal unless he saw universes where Jasnah took it. 

Maybe she agreed in some way that occured off screen? Her bedroom depression seemed a little too intense for me (more like she was hiding from what she had maybe done)

Edited March 25 by teknopathetic

[king of nowhere]

I haven't read all the four pages, that's a lot, but from what I skimmed I saw nobody point out a few things that paint jasnah in a better light.
first, about seeing others as tools. remember in the first book, when shallan tries repeatedly to become her ward and is repeatedly turned down? when did shallan succeed?

"i am uneducated through no fault of my own. please help me get an education"

and after jasnah discovers she stole the soulcaster, what gets her to mellow?

"I made a mistake. i will make others. i need your guidance"

jasnah doesn't care about shallan the social climber. she doesn't care about using her for some schemes. what persuades jasnah, both time, is a plea for help from a person in need.

Jasnah cares about helping others. deeply. some of her actions may be off, but i never saw her entertain any selfish thought. 

and what she did with her political power? she freed slaves. she democratized the government. she turned the highprinces from warring warlord into state functionaries. she always had the good of the people in mind. that fact cannot be denied.

as for her acting like she's everyone's intellectual superior, everything in the story seem to point that she actually is. no mortal could match her wit, except taravangian in his best days. how much being smarter than those around you gives you a right to boss over them is debatable, but i linked it to a weaker form of omniscent morality license: in a fantasy story with prophecies, people can be forgiven for doing terrible things because they knew for certain all the consequences and knew it was the best outcome. jasnah doesn't know all the consequences as she's not omniscent, but she does know better than anyone else, which gives her some leeway.

 

I will not discuss the main point about plotting murders of your rivals because it's been done a lot. I'll only add my bit here, saying that in an environment filled with the likes of sadeas, planning countermeasures in case your allies betray you is not cruel, it's basic survival instinct. she didn't carry out any of those assassinations that i'm aware of. 

 

Edited March 27 by king of nowhere