[Discuss] Jasnah: An analysis of a monster

[Treamayne]

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

The closest I can think of was the guy who tried to drop Dalinar into the chasms, but I don't recall if they found out Sadeas was the one who hired him.

It was stated outright that he was a Sadeas Agent - WoR Ch 58:

Spoiler

A while later, the door to his study opened and Ialai slipped in. Seeing him lost in thought, she stopped by the door.

“Organize all of your informants,” Sadeas said, looking up at the ceiling. “Every spy you have, every source you know. Find me something, Ialai. Something to hurt him.”

She nodded.

“And after that,” Sadeas said, “it will be time to make use of those assassins you’ve planted.”

He had to ensure that Dalinar was desperate and wounded—had to guarantee that the others viewed him as broken, ruined.

Then he’d end this.

Hope that helps

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

It was stated outright that he was a Sadeas Agent - WoR Ch 58:

  Reveal hidden contents

A while later, the door to his study opened and Ialai slipped in. Seeing him lost in thought, she stopped by the door.

“Organize all of your informants,” Sadeas said, looking up at the ceiling. “Every spy you have, every source you know. Find me something, Ialai. Something to hurt him.”

She nodded.

“And after that,” Sadeas said, “it will be time to make use of those assassins you’ve planted.”

He had to ensure that Dalinar was desperate and wounded—had to guarantee that the others viewed him as broken, ruined.

Then he’d end this.

Hope that helps

I was meaning if Dalinar and co knew that Sadeas hired him, but thank you

[Treamayne]

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I was meaning if Dalinar and co knew that Sadeas hired him, but thank you

Sorry

[Immortal Platypus]

6 hours ago, MrHobbes343 said:

Jasnah as a member of the ruling family of a Monarchy is thus by dint of berth exposed not to ideal intellectual political philosophy, but to realpolitik. In a world were your father killed his way to the top less then a lifetime ago you are going to have a rather brutal view of the political machine and the example set for you is that violence works and is rewarded if used correctly. When Renarin was possibly controlled by an enemy god you might want to cut off the limb before it rots the tree, even if some of the original man is left for now.

and yet her cousins, Adolin and Renarin, don't take the same approach as her. 

4 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

I believe the difference is about the conditions under which the choice is made to take lethal actions. I anticipate that any response which can express my views on this matter fully and without excessive references that are unread to the audience in this forum would be to speak about the nature of volition, choice, moral goodness as a category, and I would have to say Immanuel Kant multiple times.

But I put a lot of weight on the voluntary part of what I said. I can accept people who cannot accept death and must instead kill to survive, but only if I also believe in the path to get there as being involuntary.

@MrHobbes343I believe I do largely agree with you. The state as an instrument of social formation has all of these problems. Jasnah was born literally as Gavilar started to decide "Actually, I would like to have a hereditary monarchy state with a warrior noble aristocracy instead of just other people's stuff.". I commend Jasnah for trying to introduce democracy and get rid of the warrior noble caste system. The caste system is seemingly what causes Moashs, and I think we can all agree that guy is just miserable.

interesting. It seems I interpret Deontology and Kant's ideas differently from you. It seems to me that continuing this discussion would distract from the thread, so I'll leave it there.

[Ripheus23]

19 hours ago, Frustration said:

Since we don't know why he killed Adonalsium I'll refrain from judgement at the moment

I thought you were saying, "Cool motive, still murder," though 

[MrHobbes343]

At this point I just think you have picked a target and are just decided to find them evil and dismiss greater evil as irrelevant and all arguments you don't agree with as spurious.

If you are going to call Jasnah a monster for not killing people except criminals and enemy combatants in an apocalyptic war for survival; while dismissing Dalanar's real and brutal mass killings in a time of overall peace then I don't have a word for your morals other then Hypocrite.

I find your expectations of moral purity even in extreme circumstances and your refusal to acknowledge that sometimes harsh methods are required for survival as extremely willfully naive and I hope that you may at some point in the future may better come to understand nuance and necessity.  

If it is a choice between Virtue and Survival, Survival must always win.

One of the prerequisites of Virtue is being alive to proclaim and perform said Virtue.

 

I find it quite distasteful that you would judge someone who from our perspective is more historical figure then living person, by the standards of a time and social context that they don't know of and will never reasonably know of. This is more a 15 minute hate, then a reasoned discussion and is why I despise the pop history trope of judging people from radically different times and places by modern standards. 

Edited March 13 by MrHobbes343

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

10 hours ago, Immortal Platypus said:

and yet her cousins, Adolin and Renarin, don't take the same approach as her. 

Adolin murdered a Sadeas by strangling him to death. He literally personally assassinated a man because he saw the victim as a political and military problem that had to be dealt with. Is the line between a monster and a moral person that the latter kills at a remove?

[Returned he/him]

20 hours ago, Frustration said:

That depends on what you mean by attempted murder. If like I do you go by someone trying to murder another then yes it counts. If you prefer a strictly legalistic definition if becomes a bit more of a stretch, but one I believe can still apply. If we moved Jasnah to the real world and gave her a gun, and police came in on her pointing it at Renarin she would be arrested and may well be charged with attempted murder depending on the DA.

I don't want to stir anything up further, but for completeness wanted to outline where I think the line is. No one needs to reply, and I do not expect any.

Murder is already a legal concept, a specific subset of killing involving relationships to intent and foreseeable consequences of doing something else that is illegal or using something that can be lethal. Jasnah's plan and intention to kill Renarin definitely fits this, even if one is inclined to fold her decision into some other framework as well. That a prosecuting attorney might charge someone with something is the ultimate in strictly legalistic appeals, with political and pragmatic overtones as well; overcharging defendants with crimes that cannot pass muster in a court is extremely common in the U.S., often but not only as a negotiating tactic. There's an old saying that a DA can indict a ham sandwich, which among other things means that a DA can charge whatever they want, whether or not it's valid or likely to succeed. Additionally, pointing a gun at someone is a different case than holding a sword, which I address below.

I define a murder attempt as a chain of actions leading up to an action which is intended to actually kill a person, with that action being the crucial factor. This would cover ordering assassins to kill Renarin, for example, because once the order is given Jasnah has done everything that that mode of killing Renarin requires. If Jasnah pointed a gun at Renarin and pulled the trigger, it's too late for her to change her mind. Once the trigger is pulled, the murder is attempted because no further actions are required from Jasnah to lead to Renarin's death, and all of the actions required of Jasnah to cause that death have been taken. That would be a murder attempt, and I would even be comfortable describing the entire sequence of events leading up to that as a part of the attempt as well, from her first step towards Renarin once she had decided to kill him. Even pointing the gun at him might be considered a murder attempt, though if she were pointing it at his foot that would be hard to support. Guns can fire accidentally, for example, but as long as the gun is pointed at him he's still in lethal danger. And as long as the gun is pointed at him, Jasnah might be in the process of a murder attempt-- the situation is not over, so we can't determine that.

If, however, she pointed a gun at him but then lowered it and put it in her holster instead of firing, there is no actual effort to kill him made and so no murder attempt. Once the gun is put away there is no more lethal danger. There is still intent to kill, planning to kill, and putting that plan into action (if not all the way), all of which can fairly be laid at Jasnah's feet. But in choosing to put the gun away she has declined to do the things that would kill (or even harm) Renarin, and so she did not attempt to kill him. Dismissing her Shardblade marked the end of Renarin being in lethal danger, and nothing forced Jasnah to do that. She chose not to try to murder, and so did not try to murder. But if you wanted to accuse her of something like intent to murder or conspiracy to murder, I'd be on board.

Edited March 13 by Returned

[Schizoposting]

It seems to me that the reason why a substantial part of the fandom hates Jasnah (or Moash for that matter), is because their "crimes" affect main/secondary characters—people hate Moash for killing Elhokar, but nobody would have cared if he was just some random light eyes. The same goes for Jasnah; I think that it's telling that the OP despises Jasnah for contemplating killing Renarin, but does not care whatsoever for the footpads that she murdered. In both cases, the logic was more or less the same, with the difference being that we care about Renarin, while the footpads were nobodies. 

This is not to say that it's wrong to dislike either of these two characters—Brandon very intentionally had them make decisions that he knew would provoke hatred towards the character from the fandom. And I do think that, on a certain level, we're supposed to be disturbed by some of Jasnah's actions. But I find that discussing why a given character makes people feel a certain way is more interesting than debating whether or not they are moral.

[Frustration]

5 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

I thought you were saying, "Cool motive, still murder," though 

I probably will.

I just want to make sure Adonalsium wasn't a tyrant who tortured Tanavast's mother to death or something.

I doubt Brandon will do something like that, but if it is I'd be willing to consider further.

3 hours ago, MrHobbes343 said:

At this point I just think you have picked a target and are just decided to find them evil and dismiss greater evil as irrelevant and all arguments you don't agree with as spurious.

Just because you don't understand my position doesn't mean I'm just making this up for kicks and giggles.

3 hours ago, MrHobbes343 said:

If you are going to call Jasnah a monster for not killing people except criminals and enemy combatants in an apocalyptic war for survival; while dismissing Dalanar's real and brutal mass killings in a time of overall peace then I don't have a word for your morals other then Hypocrite.

1. Ad hominin

2. I have not once dismissed what Dalinar did at Rathalis, and have multiple times in this thread pointed out that that was evil. I hated Dalinar during the middle of OB.

4 hours ago, MrHobbes343 said:

I find your expectations of moral purity even in extreme circumstances and your refusal to acknowledge that sometimes harsh methods are required for survival as extremely willfully naive and I hope that you may at some point in the future may better come to understand nuance and necessity.  

If it is a choice between Virtue and Survival, Survival must always win.

One of the prerequisites of Virtue is being alive to proclaim and perform said Virtue.

There has never been a conflict between virtue and survival in this discussion. As that is outside the scope of this discussion I will just say that if I had to chose between the two I find one far more valuable, and that a life without virtue isn't worth living and leave it at that.

4 hours ago, MrHobbes343 said:

I find it quite distasteful that you would judge someone who from our perspective is more historical figure then living person, by the standards of a time and social context that they don't know of and will never reasonably know of. This is more a 15 minute hate, then a reasoned discussion and is why I despise the pop history trope of judging people from radically different times and places by modern standards. 

You don't have to discuss or judge Jasnah at all.

44 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

It seems to me that the reason why a substantial part of the fandom hates Jasnah (or Moash for that matter), is because their "crimes" affect main/secondary characters—people hate Moash for killing Elhokar, but nobody would have cared if he was just some random light eyes.

I honestly don't hate Moash for killing Elhokar.

The worst things Moash ever did was killing Jezrien and killing the people trapped in Hearthstone(though I don't recall their names).

46 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

The same goes for Jasnah; I think that it's telling that the OP despises Jasnah for contemplating killing Renarin, but does not care whatsoever for the footpads that she murdered. In both cases, the logic was more or less the same, with the difference being that we care about Renarin, while the footpads were nobodies. 

The footpads were not murdered. That was textbook self defense, and I have gone on at length about why I don't judge her for that on a different thread.

If Renarin was trying to kill Jasnah at the time I wouldn't judge her for it, however he wasn't doing anything.

 

[Schizoposting]

@Frustration, saying that killing the footpads was self-defense is disingenuous, when they were literally incapable of causing her harm, due to her Radiant powers. And she was more than capable of scaring them off without having to kill them. 

Imagine the following scenario: I intentionally go into a dangerous crime ridden neighborhood, wearing lots of expensive jewelry, hoping to attract criminals; three people try to mug me at knife point, but I pull out a gun and shoot one dead, the others try to flee, but I gun them down anyways. Do you really think that I would be in the right here?

[Jult]

I've been re-reading various scenes and WoBs related to Jasnah because there seems to be some heavy disagreement on both sides of this discussion which surprised me.

And I think I've moved my stance from "Yes, she's a monster" to "she is wildly inconsistent". She has tons of noble ideals and goals that she does execute like more gender equality and ending slavery. And often seems to greatly value even the common people on both sides of the conflict.

But, at the same time, she's got one of the highest kill counts in the series. Including several murders. And she doesn't seem to regret any of them. And many of them aren't for the sake of survival - they are for the sake of convenience. She acknowledges that there are other options and chooses assassination - rather than leaving it as a last resort. She kills enemy soldiers in a grandiose fashion as a play earn respect. And on multiple occasions goads people into situations where she is "justified" to fight back with unnecessary lethal force.

Her actions just don't add up to me. I called her a hypocrite earlier, but I think it's deeper than that. Several WoBs mention that she has some form of mental illness (like much of the main cast). I'm thinking that once we know what that illness is, some of her more... colorful actions will make more sense. 

Also, a side note: there are many things about Jasnah that I like. I don't want to come across as hating the character. I'm just highlighting her flaws because they're relevant to this discussion. She's actually a favorite of mine. She's a forward-thinking atheist and I identify with that. It's also probably why I find it so jarring when she does a 180 and starts casually disintegrating people. Or when she rams her sword through Ruthar's neck while he's refusing to duel her. 

Side-side note because Moash's name keeps oddly popping up (Major Mistborn Era 1 spoilers):

Spoiler

I have trouble blaming Moash for most of his actions after he meets Odium. He's being manipulated by the god of emotions at that point. I blame him for his actions under Odium's influence about as much as I blame Marsh for his actions under Ruin's influence.

Killing Elhokar did come before that.. but like.. that was a battlefield kill. Of a high-value target. Who just so happened to be his grandparents' murderer.

I know this topic is about Jasnah not getting enough hate. But maybe we need another one about how Moash gets too much.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Schizoposting said:

@Frustration, saying that killing the footpads was self-defense is disingenuous, when they were literally incapable of causing her harm, due to her Radiant powers. And she was more than capable of scaring them off without having to kill them. 

I don't believe she had an obligation to spare them. While she might well have been able to survive anything they did if she planned her actions correctly, they did not know that. They were willing to kill, and having started the confrontation Jasnah has the right to deal with them as she sees fit.

1 hour ago, Schizoposting said:

Imagine the following scenario: I intentionally go into a dangerous crime ridden neighborhood, wearing lots of expensive jewelry, hoping to attract criminals; three people try to mug me at knife point, but I pull out a gun and shoot one dead, the others try to flee, but I gun them down anyways. Do you really think that I would be in the right here?

There was a better one in the thread I linked above 

But the short of it was if Batman pretended to be an old woman in crime ridden parts of town and shot anyone who tried to rob him would he be justified.

I say yes.

Walking public streets, and choosing to wear expensive clothing does not justify violence against you. I also believe that you have a right to defend yourself against threats.

They have by their own actions voided their own rights and protections.

52 minutes ago, Jult said:

I've been re-reading various scenes and WoBs related to Jasnah because there seems to be some heavy disagreement on both sides of this discussion which surprised me.

And I think I've moved my stance from "Yes, she's a monster" to "she is wildly inconsistent". She has tons of noble ideals and goals that she does execute like more gender equality and ending slavery. And often seems to greatly value even the common people on both sides of the conflict.

But, at the same time, she's got one of the highest kill counts in the series. Including several murders. And she doesn't seem to regret any of them. And many of them aren't for the sake of survival - they are for the sake of convenience. She acknowledges that there are other options and chooses assassination - rather than leaving it as a last resort. She kills enemy soldiers in a grandiose fashion as a play earn respect. And on multiple occasions goads people into situations where she is "justified" to fight back with unnecessary lethal force.

Her actions just don't add up to me. I called her a hypocrite earlier, but I think it's deeper than that. Several WoBs mention that she has some form of mental illness (like much of the main cast). I'm thinking that once we know what that illness is, some of her more... colorful actions will make more sense. 

Also, a side note: there are many things about Jasnah that I like. I don't want to come across as hating the character. I'm just highlighting her flaws because they're relevant to this discussion. She's actually a favorite of mine. She's a forward-thinking atheist and I identify with that. It's also probably why I find it so jarring when she does a 180 and starts casually disintegrating people. Or when she rams her sword through Ruthar's neck while he's refusing to duel her. 

Side-side note because Moash's name keeps oddly popping up (Major Mistborn Era 1 spoilers):

  Reveal hidden contents

I have trouble blaming Moash for most of his actions after he meets Odium. He's being manipulated by the god of emotions at that point. I blame him for his actions under Odium's influence about as much as I blame Marsh for his actions under Ruin's influence.

Killing Elhokar did come before that.. but like.. that was a battlefield kill. Of a high-value target. Who just so happened to be his grandparents' murderer.

I know this topic is about Jasnah not getting enough hate. But maybe we need another one about how Moash gets too much.

That's honestly true.

And I agree with Moash, mostly. I don't think Odium has full mind control but you make some solid points here.

I honestly don't think Brandon tried to make Jasnah out to as evil as she is, he just went a little too far on what he wanted to be some darker moments.

[Schizoposting]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I don't believe she had an obligation to spare them. While she might well have been able to survive anything they did if she planned her actions correctly, they did not know that. They were willing to kill, and having started the confrontation Jasnah has the right to deal with them as she sees fit.

...

But the short of it was if Batman pretended to be an old woman in crime ridden parts of town and shot anyone who tried to rob him would he be justified.

I say yes.

...

They have by their own actions voided their own rights and protections.

Since you clearly seem to believe that being a criminal makes you subhuman, and worthy of wanton extermination, I don't see any point in continuing this discussion.

[MrHobbes343]

6 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

Since you clearly seem to believe that being a criminal makes you subhuman, and worthy of wanton extermination, I don't see any point in continuing this discussion.

I concur, @Frustration is quite patently trying to frame Jasnah in a specific moral lens rather then trying to have an open discussion on the nature of an complex and often flawed individual.

 

I'm leaving this thread, not because you have made me agree with any of your points, but because you clearly started this thread to try to justify your warped perspective on responsibility and guilt. This is just not a thread where I feel I can have a good faith conversation, and we very obviously can't agree on simple definitions or terminology. So, I don't really see a point.

[Clarkmon22 He/Him]

On 3/11/2026 at 2:41 PM, Frustration said:

TLDR: Jasnah bears a greater resemblance to Meridas Amaram than she does to anything resembling a hero, and her father was wise trying to pair them.

 

Ever since WaT I have been forced to reevaluate my opinions of Jasnah. She went from being pragmatic with a hard edge to one of the most morally repugnant characters in the Stormlight Archive, and comparing her to a hero is inarguably laughable.

Given how little we have seen PoVs from her I intend to base this off of a few key moments to highlight Jasnah's sickening lack of morality.

Going in mostly chronological order the first thing that comes to mind was hiring an assassin to kill Aesudan. Early on this was played for mystery and suspense, but the reveal in WaT that Jasnah was just scared of her own sister-in-law really speaks volumes. When it comes to inconvenient people, even those in her own family, Jasnah's answer is murder. Not speaking to them, not patience, not understanding and compromise, murder.

Some might bring up Jasnah killing the footpads in WoK next, but I actually have no problems with that. What I actually wanted to look at was Jasnah's interactions with Renarin in OB. When she found out that Renarin had predicted the Everstorm Jasnah begins to watch him. Unto itself, that isn't too unusual or noteworthy, and honestly, some of the others should have done the same. However, when she confirmed that Renarin was bonded to a corrupted spren Jasnah's first response was to try and kill him. We can confirm this as we have Renarin's PoV from this encounter, Jasnah hadn't even spoken to him about this earlier.

I don't think Brandon took the time in the book to go over just how evil that actually is. She didn't ask Renarin for an explanation, didn't ask if he was hurt or in danger, nothing. For her it was as simple as: Renarin has a corrupted spren, therefore I should kill him. If Renarin hadn't looked at her at that moment I fully believe that she would have done it, which Renarin's visions confirm.

The final straw, and what finally got me to realize this pattern was the debate in WaT, when we found out the truth about Aesudan as well as Jasnah's plans to assassinate Fen as well as other coalition leaders. This was the ultimate confirmation to me, Jasnah doesn't have friends, merely useful tools. She doesn't believe in allies, just people who have the same enemies. Well is she labeled a heretic because to her nothing is sacred, and nothing is off limits.

 

Many have compared Jasnah to Taravangian, including myself. However, lately I have come to disagree. Taravangian cares about the people around him. He has friends and allies that he takes care of even to the point of creating a massive weakness for himself to do so. Jasnah on the other hand only cares for herself and her goals. She might care about her family, but to her they are replaceable, something that can be thrown aside if they become inconvenient. She is far closer to Meridas Amaram, and Moash. Jasnah is easily one of the most morally reprehensible characters in the Stormlight Archive and I hope she gets brought to Justice.

um

but

she gets sad?

[Mage of Lirigon he/him]

20 hours ago, Frustration said:

I don't believe she had an obligation to spare them. While she might well have been able to survive anything they did if she planned her actions correctly, they did not know that. They were willing to kill, and having started the confrontation Jasnah has the right to deal with them as she sees fit.

 

 

She did have an obligation not to kill the ones who fled. Pretty much any rules of engagement would agree there. 

I could accept her having the right to kill the one who attacked her, but the ones who ran away? No. 

There's a certain classist perspective to this whole affair. Jasnah is not incapable of offering mercy or clemency to defeated foes, so it sticks out that she offerered none to the footpads.

There's also the point that the whole reason she did the whole thing was as an object lesson to Shallan, no different than when Dalinar attacked Elhokar.

She did it to show Shallan that she could be erased just as easily as the footpads if Jasnah wanted to, just like Dalinar almost killed Elhokar to prove he wouldn't. 

There's a reason why she and Dalinar are noted to be so alike and both are considered to be the pinnacle of what it means to be Alethi. 

Edited March 14 by Mage of Lirigon

[Frustration]

51 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

She did have it an obligation not to kill the ones who fled. Pretty much any rules of engagement would agree there. 

I could accept her having the right to kill the one who attacked her, but the ones who ran away? No. 

If they had surrendered, or managed to escape and Jasnah found them later I would agree.

However, in that moment, there is little distinction between retreat and repositioning. As of that moment I still consider them combatants.

55 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

There's also the point that the whole reason she did the whole thing was as an object lesson to Shallan, no different than when Dalinar attacked Elhokar. 

She didn't force the footpads to attack her. All she did was wear a particular outfit and walk down a particular street, neither of which is wrong.

[Mage of Lirigon he/him]

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If they had surrendered, or managed to escape and Jasnah found them later I would agree.

However, in that moment, there is little distinction between retreat and repositioning. As of that moment I still consider them combatants.

You're being pedantic. They weren't soldiers repositioning to continue attacking, they're thieves running away because their friend got turned to smoke in front of them. 

The utterly asymmetrical power balance between them makes killing someone who ran away instead of just leaving them alone or capturing them morally repugnant. 

Quote

She didn't force the footpads to attack her. All she did was wear a particular outfit and walk down a particular street, neither of which is wrong.

No one said she forced them to attack her or that walking around in a set of particular clothes in a particular location is wrong. 

It also does not change the fact that she engineered the whole situation simply to demonstrate to Shallan the power she had over people of lesser social classes than her (like Shallan) and dressed it up as a lesson in morality. 

Edited March 14 by Mage of Lirigon

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

You're being pedantic. They weren't soldiers repositioning to continue attacking, they're thieves running away because their friend got turned to smoke in front of them. 

After they started a confrontation I don't think that they have any natural protections while the situation lasted.

6 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

The utterly asymmetrical power balance between them makes killing someone who ran away instead of just leaving them alone or capturing them morally repugnant.

I'm not sure I understand this one. What does the balance of power have to do with it?

6 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

It also does not change the fact that she engineered the whole situation simply to demonstrate to Shallan the power she had over people of lesser social classes than her and dressed it up as a lesson in morality. 

I'm not sure how class enters the picture. Neither Jasnah nor Shallan mentioned it, and it had nothing to do with what Jasnah was trying to do.

Edited March 14 by Frustration

[Mage of Lirigon he/him]

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

After they started a confrontation I don't think that they have any natural protections while the situation lasted.

Yes they do. There's a reason things like proportional use of force exist. In civilised societies, we don't kill down to the last man anyone who starts a conflict with us. 

Quote

I'm not sure I understand this one. What does the balance of power have to do with it?

You're only supposed to use enough force as necessary to stop the attack and prevent harm. Jasnah is so much more powerful than the footpads that deadly force is far beyond the pale. 

Quote

I'm not sure how class enters the picture. Neither Jasnah nor Shallan mentioned it, and it had nothing to do with what Jasnah was trying to do.

Subtext is a thing.

Jasnah being so socially above both the footpads and Shallan are a big part of why she feels so comfortable to play judge, jury and executioner with the footpads and allow Shallan to watch. 

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

@Mage of LirigonI think that is actually a rather keen point, the bit about her being profoundly Alethi and not unlike Dalinar. I almost wonder if one of Jasnah's early memories would be her Gavilar showing her a battlefield and explaining to her that he made this happen for her sake? The phrase "This I do for you" sprung to my mind as something he might have said that would lodge in what was at the time a child who did not yet know the words for murder or killing but is that kind of brilliant kid who speaks in full sentences before the age of three.

On the issue of the killing of the footpads, I think there is maybe some normative influences that are guiding your thinking @Frustration. There are places where lethal self defense is only justified if the party that struck the killing blow pursued all reasonable courses of action which could have avoided that outcome. The word reasonable is of course immensely load bearing and develops a complex legal meaning in this context, but there are other ways to think about self-defense than the doctrines of Stand-your-ground or Castle.

Jasnah basically acts like she is an incarnation of The State. This is not weird, considering she is part of the ruling family of a large empire and also does become queen, but it is terrifying. Mayhaps all who are trained to wear crowns are monsters.

[Returned he/him]

I don't think that the suggested classist angle holds water. Jasnah wasn't any more or less callous about the footpads than she was any of the other people she killed or had killed; it's not like she inquires about their nahns/dahns before destroying them, though it's probably a fair bet that strongarm robbers roaming the streets are not wealthy. Every political figure she had assassinated, or was clearly willing to assassinate, was in the uppermost echelons of society. Killing is on the table for her as a tool, and she doesn't exclude anyone from that consideration.

I also don't think that her roles as a high noble or princess really affect her in the ways suggested. Her shattering intellect and strong self-possession would lead her to feel equally unconstrained even if she were a tenner or a 10th-nahn woman, and it's more plausible to me that she does not accept that the state has a monopoly on violence (legitimate or otherwise). Compare with Moash: whatever you think of him, he didn't justify his extra-legal self-directed activities and choices by feeling like he, himself, was the government in some way.

I'm also a bit surprised to see so many appeals to her supposedly deep-seated Alethi nature as guiding her actions. She definitely makes a nominal show of those qualities (for convenience and formality more than anything else, in my reading) but she also shows an awful lot of specifically un-Alethi traits in very prominent ways. She, famously, rejects Vorinism in a heavily theocratic society. She wants to be queen regnant despite that upending the masculine/feminine arts divide. She banishes slavery. She wants to end the monarchical and feudal structures of Alethi society and usher in democratic governance.

Jasnah is a utilitarian pragmatist, teleologist, and hyper-rationalist. She does not appear to believe that actions have inherent moral or ethical qualities outside of their reliability, efficacy, and relative cost compared with other actions. I don't think that she's bloodthirsty, as some posts in this thread imply-- she doesn't seem to have any particular enthusiasm for killing, and if she can accomplish what she believes is necessary in other ways she will. But if she concludes that killing is the best course of action, she's ready to do that without hesitation. Obviously we don't have to accept that framework, and even if we're willing to accept it we don't have to believe that her calculations are correct. Notably, she seems pretty discerning. Of people that we know she actually killed, I don't recall any that were preemptive. Jasnah had prepared plans in advance, but that's not unique nor related to her willingness to kill.

The footpads are an interesting case, especially in the context of this thread. As best as we can gather from the text, Jasnah set out specifically intending to kill some people, though she did not have specific people in mind. When she encountered candidates, they did not attack. We have Shallan's narration that there is circumstantial evidence of their intent to kill: "You didn't rob women like Shallan and Jasnah [...] then leave them alive as witnesses." (Note: why not? It was dark until Jasnah revealed her Soulcaster, so the women would have witnessed what, exactly? It's not like killing wealthy and connected people is a lesser offense than robbing them). Jasnah draws and brandishes her weapon (the fake Soulcaster). Only then do the footpads attack, and Shallan "could also see the murder in their eyes." Based on Frustration's descriptions of the encounter with Renarin above, Jasnah could easily be considered the aggressor and a murderer by the same rationale applied in Renarin's case. The evidence against the footpads is only barely less circumstantial than the evidence against Renarin.

But there is no reason this instance needs to be all one way or the other. Jasnah's premeditation and radically greater resources should count for something: she could have hatched any number of plans and had ample time and endless resources to use, but chose to prepare only to kill. The footpads definitely did something bad in trying to rob people, and I personally am prepared to believe that they were almost certain to kill their targets. But all that that would mean is that both Jasnah and the footpads were behaving unethically; we are not required to absolve one and condemn the other.

Edited March 14 by Returned

[Mage of Lirigon he/him]

On 3/14/2026 at 5:58 PM, Returned said:

I don't think that the suggested classist angle holds water. Jasnah wasn't any more or less callous about the footpads than she was any of the other people she killed or had killed; it's not like she inquires about their nahns/dahns before destroying them, though it's probably a fair bet that strongarm robbers roaming the streets are not wealthy. Every political figure she had assassinated, or was clearly willing to assassinate, was in the uppermost echelons of society. Killing is on the table for her as a tool, and she doesn't exclude anyone from that consideration.

The fact that Jasnah is willing to show mercy to nobility before killing them yet  acts mercilessly towards plebians by itself casts her actions in that lens. 

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I also don't think that her roles as a high noble or princess really affect her in the ways suggested. Her shattering intellect and strong self-possession would lead her to feel equally unconstrained even if she were a tenner or a 10th-nahn woman,

It would be far stranger to me if being born and raised as a princess had no impact on her in those ways. Her callousness to me surely stems from her position at the top of Alethi society. We've certainly seen throughout the series how their society excuses excesses like that. 

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it's more plausible to me that she does not accept that the state has a monopoly on violence (legitimate or otherwise).

I would find that highly implausible considering her behaviour throughout the series. 

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Compare with Moash: whatever you think of him, he didn't justify his extra-legal self-directed activities and choices by feeling like he, himself, was the government in some way.

I mean, he justified himself using the exact opposite logical the comparison doesn't really hold water. 

 

Quote

I'm also a bit surprised to see so many appeals to her supposedly deep-seated Alethi nature as guiding her actions. She definitely makes a nominal show of those qualities (for convenience and formality more than anything else, in my reading) but she also shows an awful lot of specifically un-Alethi traits in very prominent ways. She, famously, rejects Vorinism in a heavily theocratic society. She wants to be queen regnant despite that upending the masculine/feminine arts divide. She banishes slavery. She wants to end the monarchical and feudal structures of Alethi society and usher in democratic governance.

Jasnah having some un-Alethi traits or rather traits belonging to Alethi men not women doesn't change how many of her behaviours stem from her upbringing in Alethi society, just like Dalinar picking up female Alethi traits like reading and writing don't detract from many of his behaviours being typically Alethi.

The fact that these two similar people who are often described as being so typically Alethi are revealed throughout the stores to have serious faults in their behaviour is Sanderson's way of critiquing Alethi culture as a whole. blockquote widget

Edited March 17 by Mage of Lirigon

[Frustration]

On 3/14/2026 at 11:38 AM, Mage of Lirigon said:

Yes they do. There's a reason things like proportional use of force exist. In civilised societies, we don't kill down to the last man anyone who starts a conflict with us. 

I feel like lethal force is exactly proportional to lethal force. I also don't feel like a criminal can start a deadly confrontation with me on a whim and then retreat back into safety the moment things start going poorly for you. That seems designed to aid the criminal.

Unrelated but funny video because you brought up "proportional":

Spoiler

 

 

On 3/14/2026 at 11:38 AM, Mage of Lirigon said:

You're only supposed to use enough force as necessary to stop the attack and prevent harm. Jasnah is so much more powerful than the footpads that deadly force is far beyond the pale. 

I'm not sure where you're getting the supposed to here, you're only supposed to use the bare minimum amount of force according to whom?

On 3/14/2026 at 11:38 AM, Mage of Lirigon said:

Subtext is a thing.

Jasnah being so socially above both the footpads and Shallan are a big part of why she feels so comfortable to play judge, jury and executioner with the footpads and allow Shallan to watch. 

She felt comfortable playing judge jury and executioner for Aesudan, who socially outranked her. Or Renarin, who might have outranked her, though exactly where he fell in succession compared to her is unclear. Or Fen who was her equal. Social class wasn't really a consideration for her.

On 3/14/2026 at 11:43 AM, ParaTulip said:

On the issue of the killing of the footpads, I think there is maybe some normative influences that are guiding your thinking @Frustration. There are places where lethal self defense is only justified if the party that struck the killing blow pursued all reasonable courses of action which could have avoided that outcome. The word reasonable is of course immensely load bearing and develops a complex legal meaning in this context, but there are other ways to think about self-defense than the doctrines of Stand-your-ground or Castle.

Self defense laws vary a lot depending on location. I'm assuming that what you are referring to is the obligation to retreat. Now I can understand why someone who believes in such an idea might find what Jasnah did there as overstepping her bounds. I personally disagree with obligation to retreat, but that's a massive political topic on its own that I think would be best left in politics.

On 3/14/2026 at 4:58 PM, Returned said:

Jasnah is a utilitarian pragmatist, teleologist, and hyper-rationalist. She does not appear to believe that actions have inherent moral or ethical qualities outside of their reliability, efficacy, and relative cost compared with other actions. I don't think that she's bloodthirsty, as some posts in this thread imply-- she doesn't seem to have any particular enthusiasm for killing, and if she can accomplish what she believes is necessary in other ways she will. But if she concludes that killing is the best course of action, she's ready to do that without hesitation. Obviously we don't have to accept that framework, and even if we're willing to accept it we don't have to believe that her calculations are correct. Notably, she seems pretty discerning. Of people that we know she actually killed, I don't recall any that were preemptive. Jasnah had prepared plans in advance, but that's not unique nor related to her willingness to kill.

While she didn't actually go through with her preemptive plans, that's because other events stopped her, such as bonding Ivory. If she hadn't dropped into another plane of existence just a few minutes earlier she would have given the order to kill Aesudan.

On 3/14/2026 at 5:40 PM, Mage of Lirigon said:

The fact that Jasnah is willing to show mercy to nobility before killing them yet  acts mercilessly towards plebians by itself casts her actions in that lens. 

None of the nobility tried to kill her, so in that lens it took a lot more for her to try and kill the more normal people.

And when did she show mercy to the nobility? The closest thing I can think of is Renarin, but if she wouldn't be willing to spare a crying darkeyes in the same situation she's even more of a monster than I believe her to be.

On 3/14/2026 at 5:40 PM, Mage of Lirigon said:

It would be far stranger to me if being born and raised as a princess had no impact on her in those ways. Her callousness to me surely stems from her position at the top of Alethi society. We've certainly seen throughout the series how their society excuses excesses like that. 

The thing is that she's the only one to really act like that. Even her own brother doesn't act like he's better than everyone else just because he is.

On 3/14/2026 at 5:40 PM, Mage of Lirigon said:

Jasnah having some un-Alethi traits or rather traits belonging to Alethi men not women doesn't change how many of her behaviours stem from her upbringing in Alethi society, just like Dalinar picking up female Alethi traits like reading and writing don't detract from many of his behaviours being typically Alethi.

The fact that these two similar people who are often described as being so typically Alethi are revealed throughout the stores to have serious faults in their behaviour is Sanderson's way of critiquing Alethi culture as a whole.

Dalinar might be called typically Alethi, but only by foreigners like the Azish. The entirety of WoK is Sadeas accusing him of not acting Alethi, and WoR is Dalinar fighting the Alethi culture. I think that it's more done to show the biases of the people speaking not to use Dalinar as a stand-in for the Alethi.

Jasnah as far as I can tell is never called typically Alethi in the books. Her comparison to Dalinar is with her disposition, picking a stool as her preferred chair and what-not.

Brandon says that the best stand-in for the Alethi is Amaram

Spoiler

Coachdorax

Did you write Amaram as an opposite of Dalinar or was he simply a bad guy meant to spur Kaladin?

Brandon Sanderson

I meant Amaram to be the representation of the corrupt side of the Alethi. Meaning they are all talk and very little heart. Very little of what they say, to the worst of the Alethi, gets to who they really are. They would rather be known as someone honorable than be actually honorable. And this I consider a major problem with their society, and I needed somebody to represent this. Part of it is, to represent a contrast to Kaladin’s ideals. This belief that lighteyes were these paragons of virtue. But I also needed somebody, you may say an opposite to Dalinar. In a way, he is an opposite to Dalinar, but more he just represents Alethi society. And I did want it to be that he wasn’t just all the way corrupt. When he makes his decision in Book One in the flashbacks, he is making a decision. There is a moment where he is considering. By the time you are seeing him in later books, that decision has taken him down a path that leaves him very far from any sort of redemption. But it was a choice. And he wasn’t just corrupt from the get go. But yeah, he represents what I feel would be bad about Alethi society. A kind of honor society that is more about looking honorable than being.

YouTube Livestream 2 (Jan. 20, 2020)

 

Edited March 17 by Frustration