discuss Cosmere Bene Gesserit?

[Schizoposting]

In Dune, an organization called the Bene Gesserit have a breeding program to produce the Kwisatz Haderach—an Übermensch with supernatural powers; now, on Scadrial we have something similar—the metallic arts, which are also genetic in nature. As such, a Bene Gesserit style breeding program ought to be applicable to the Cosmere.

For instance, suppose that you're a nation/organizaton in the Cosmere, say, the Malwish, and you want to get ahold of some metalborn. All you need to do is send female agents to seduce some male metalborn (or you could just outright buy their sperm), until they become pregnant. Keep doing this until you have a couple metalborn. This will be your initial breeding stock.

Now, using artificial insemination a single male can have thousands of children; even if the vast majority are "duds" you'll almost certainly get at least some metalborn due to simple probability (if you have IVF, you can do the same for females by having them donate eggs to surrogates). This will allow you to rapidly expand your population of metalborn. 

Once you have created a sufficiently large breeding population with sufficient genetic diversity, you can do the usual artificial selection to breed for your desired traits. And again, if you have IVF, then you can just make a law saying that all metalborn have to donate their sperm or eggs, that can then be used by surrogates.  

Through this process, you can create a sizable population of metalborns (i.e. > 100) in a couple decades, and over the course centuries you can create Mistborn, Feruchemists, or even Fullborn. All of this should be pretty trivial for a nation state, or even a sufficiently powerful organization. 

Therefore, we ought to see people attempting (or even succeeding) at doing this. Now, it's certainly possible that Brandon might not want to do this for political reasons, but from an in-world perspective, everybody should have a metalborn breeding program. In fact, I think that this is what we'll see in era 3—the north, and the south, breeding metalborn to try and gain a decisive edge over each other.

[Frustration]

Or even just moral reasons. Just seeing the relatively moderate things(compared to this) that Straff and the Set were doing were quite repugnant.

Now you could probably do this for Allomancy or Feruchemy on their own, something like Fullborn however would likely cause more issues to the program than it would help as the genes interfere with each other and make them weaker, which is why Ferrings exist in the first place.

Spoiler

Travyl (paraphrased)

Why do the Twinborn in Alloy of Law have only one Feruchemical power, when all previous Feruchemists, in spite of breeding programs, could use all the metals? 

WetlanderNW (paraphrased)

Or were Ferrings always part of the system and we just didn't meet them in Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Ferrings are a new development since Mistborn, as the Feruchemists have been interbreeding with the Allomancers. Basically, the Allomancy genes interfere with the Feruchemy genes, breaking it down and creating the limitations we see in Alloy of Law.

Footnote: Brandon's response was very enthusiastic. He noted how perceptive the question was, and obviously enjoyed the discussion. The reporter has expressed their regret at lack of an audio recording to share his enthusiasm.
Alloy of Law Seattle Signing (Nov. 11, 2011)

 

 

 

Windrunner

Is it is even possible for a full Feruchemist Mistborn to be naturally born, or will the genes for the two interfere with one another too much?

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible, but highly unlikely.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 6, 2015)

 

[PanLin they/he]

18 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

Therefore, we ought to see people attempting (or even succeeding) at doing this.

Even outside of the moral discussion around eugenics (although to clarify, it's frankly an evil concept both in fiction and IRL), the resources needed for this are wild.

Before the Catacendre, the Lord Ruler would have actively opposed any efforts toward this so he could remain in control of who got powers (which he mostly did via Hemalurgy and his limited stock of Lerasium beads).

After the Catacendre, people have been experimenting more and more with unkeyed and unsealed metalminds. Why go through the bother of running a huge human breeding plant that will take decades to maybe produce results when the technology exists to create metalminds that give that ability? Or take a leaf out of the Lord Ruler's book and go around hunting people who have the powers you want so you can steal them with Hemalurgy?

Industrialised eugenics like what you're describing might work, but just isn't worth the effort considering the other paths to metalborn abilities available to Scadrians.

[Returned he/him]

That's more or less what the Set were doing, as well as the Terris, to the extent that their resources and technology allowed. One of the larger issues is that the Metalborn produced by such a process will be more magically powerful than the people that produced them (at least until there are enough stably-produced Mistborn, full Feruchemists, or Fullborn to run things themselves) and won't necessarily be controllable. And if you're one of those full-featured Metalborn the potential challenges from rivals may not be worth whatever you think you can get from having them. The Lord Ruler went to quite a lot of trouble to ensure that there would never be another Fullborn besides himself. It's a true believer who wants such Metalborn to exist and also is willing to give up their own power, influence, and control in the process.

More likely, these Metalborn would just be spiked so that their stolen powers can be concentrated in the people directing the programs. I don't think there are all that many people who would run the breeding program but would be unwilling to do the spiking. It's also not obviously the case that the Metallic Arts can be re-concentrated by selective breeding alone, though with access to magic and increasingly flexible Investiture I would assume it could be accomplished somehow.

There was a thread that touched on this a while back, I'll see if I can find it.

Edited February 27 by Returned

[Schizoposting]

55 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Now you could probably do this for Allomancy or Feruchemy on their own, something like Fullborn however would likely cause more issues to the program than it would help as the genes interfere with each other and make them weaker, which is why Ferrings exist in the first place.

If you cross 1000 Mistborn with 1000 Feruchemists, I think that you'll get a Fullborn at least once. But I could be wrong.

43 minutes ago, PanLin said:

After the Catacendre, people have been experimenting more and more with unkeyed and unsealed metalminds. Why go through the bother of running a huge human breeding plant that will take decades to maybe produce results when the technology exists to create metalminds that give that ability? Or take a leaf out of the Lord Ruler's book and go around hunting people who have the powers you want so you can steal them with Hemalurgy?

It's certainly possible that medallions will make the innate metallic arts superfluous, but I don't think that's where Brandon is going. So long as there's a place for Metalborn, a breeding program would make sense. And even if it costs a billion dollars a year to run the program, that's pocket change for a major government, like the Malwish.

6 minutes ago, Returned said:

One of the larger issues is that the Metalborn produced by such a process will be more magically powerful than the people that produced them (at least until there are enough stably-produced Mistborn, full Feruchemists, or Fullborn) and won't necessarily be controllable.

Metalborn are not invincible though—even a Mistborn can be defeated with modern technology without too many issues. But you can probably just buy them off (especially if they're male or if you have IVF) to win their loyalty. If you have to resources to run a large-scale breeding program, then you have the capacity to control your Metalborn.  

18 minutes ago, Returned said:

More likely, these Metalborn would just be spiked so that their stolen powers can be concentrated in the people directing the programs. I don't think there are all that many people who would run the breeding program but would be unwilling to carry out the spiking.

The problem with Hemalurgy is that it's non-renewable, so you still need a breeding program, especially if you don't have easy access to Metalborn. 

Also, there are non-invasive ways to breed for Metalborn; you can, for instance, pay Metalborn to become sperm/egg donors, to increase their population (their donations would almost certainly be in very high demand).

I'm not saying that eugenics is morally good, but given the internal logic of the Cosmere, eugenics is perfectly rational while in the real world it is not. Given that eugenics was mainstream less than a century ago, it's not hard to imagine that people might try and use it to gain an advantage in a fictional universe where it actually works. (Not to mention that people still ascribe to it today).

[PanLin they/he]

3 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

If you cross 1000 Mistborn with 1000 Feruchemists, I think that you'll get a Fullborn at least once. But I could be wrong.

And if it takes 1,000,000 of each?

Honestly, I think we'll see industrialised Spiritweb modifications before something like this. We know such a feat is possible, just not widely available (yet), and we know that a person's Spiritweb determines what powers a Metalborn has and how much trauma it would take to snap them.

There isn't a way (afaik) to determine which Metalborn power someone will have, or even if that person will have more or less allomantic potential in them than their parents, until after they're born (or conceived maybe?) and you can view their Spiritweb. It isn't like breeding cows for thicker leather or Bene Gesserit for desirable genetic expressions, as it isn't possible to pool the right genes together in that way through physical means, and the expressions are based more on spiritual genetics than physical. It's literally just a spray-and-pray numbers game unless you start messing with Spiritwebs directly.

10 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

but I don't think that's where Brandon is going

Can I ask why? Not trying to poopoo the idea (I'm enjoying this discussion) but everything I've seen about Sanderson's plans for Mistborn imply the exact opposite; that industrialisation and modernisation will make natural powers less relevant as people turn to technology and other Hemalurgic applications. The whole appeal of jumping through eras with the Mistborn series is to see the effect of technological developments on Scadrial.

Spoiler

Questioner

In Mistborn Era 1, they don't...aluminum in real life can only really be refined through the use of electricity.

Brandon Sanderson

You can actually get it before that. For instance, Napoleon had a set of aluminum dinnerware that he gave to the really fancy guests. If you weren't fancy enough, you got the gold. So they could get it in elemental form without electrolysis or whatever the process is. You could get it, but you couldn't make it. It was extremely rare till the modern era.

They have started to figure out that process in Mistborn, and it soon is going to become really common.

Questioner

Once aluminum is dirt cheap like it is--

Brandon Sanderson

That changes the world a whole bunch!

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

 

20 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

given the internal logic of the Cosmere, eugenics is perfectly rational while in the real world it is not.

I mean, if we were talking about farming Breaths on Nalthis, I might agree with you, I just don't think it's all that viable for Scadrial based on what we know of allomantic and feruchemical expression.

[Frustration]

35 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

If you cross 1000 Mistborn with 1000 Feruchemists, I think that you'll get a Fullborn at least once. But I could be wrong.

While I don't think those numbers are necessarily off I don't think that's possible given current demographics.

First we have to get mistborn and feruchemists again.

Given that on average a misting is 1 in 1000 (BoM page 190), and that with selective breeding you could get a mistborn in one out of every 256 mistings(which I consider generous) just to get that many mistborn you need a population of 256 Million. Doubled for Feruchemists is 512 million.

 

However, given that in AoL the total population of the north is only around 15 million

Spoiler

wackyHair

What's the population of the shardworld's we've seen so far (even in very general terms, like one's much bigger than the others or something)?

Brandon Sanderson

Scadrial is certainly the least populated of the major shard worlds. Then Nalthis, I'd guess, followed by Roshar, and finally Sel--which likely has the largest population. I would have to look closely to see which is bigger between those last two.

Phantine

Does a population of about 100 million during The Final Empire (with 1-2 million in Luthadel), and around 15 million during Alloy of Law (with about 5 million in Elendel) seem right?

Brandon Sanderson

Have to RAFO this for now, for reasons I can't explain without giving spoilers.

Phantine

How about as far as Elend/Wax knows, at the beginning of their respective series?

Brandon Sanderson

Then those numbers, if they're off, are at least close.

faragorn

Interesting that Sel has such a large population, given that the actual numbers of soldiers shown seem to be quite small.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that Opelon has an inflated opinion of its own size in relation to the rest of the world.

Footnote: The RAFO about the Scadrian population may be due to the existence of the Southerners, which had not been revealed as of this time.
/r/books AMA 2015 (June 8, 2015)

That requires almost 36 times the total population.

If instead we take the current total misting number which for 15 million is 15k mistings to not a single mistborn you would need at least 15 Billion as a total population just to get to those levels. That's assuming you focused exclusively on Allomancers as mixing feruchemy in which makes it even more diluted.

Getting 1000 feruchemists is even harder as the Terris population is smaller, however even assuming that they also have a 1 in 1000 rule for the total population that's another 15 billion just for them. Now of course you can have some overlap as a single woman could serve as a surrogate for both programs that still should leave us a total population easily in the 30-40 billion range.

Basically without access to more Lerasium and a way to make more feruchemists which unto itself would render the program mostly pointless I don't think this is possible.

Edited February 27 by Frustration

[Returned he/him]

20 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

Metalborn are not invincible though—even a Mistborn can be defeated with modern technology without too many issues. But you can probably just buy them off (especially if they're male or if you have IVF) to win their loyalty. If you have to resources to run a large-scale breeding program, then you have the capacity to control your Metalborn.  

I think the issue is that you need to have reliable and consistent control, which is very hard to do, and if you fail you have an enemy or rival that is very hard to deal with. Straff and Zane come to mind. The Metalborn don't have to be invincible, they just have to be less vincible than a person who is in a position to direct the program. Anything you have, they could also have and probably wouldn't need you to provide to them, so why do they need you?  Maybe you can persuade them, perhaps often, but what happens when you can't? If they're so trivial to defeat with modern technology, then what is the value of having the Metalborn instead of just using the technology that is already superior? This is also the biggest problem the Bene Gesserit had-- they couldn't control the powerful people they produced.

And, again, we don't even know that this would work. It's not clear that the diluted Investment that has prevented more Mistborn and full Feruchemists from being born can be reversed by breeding alone.

28 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

The problem with Hemalurgy is that it's non-renewable, so you still need a breeding program, especially if you don't have easy access to Metalborn. 

Also, there are non-invasive ways to breed for Metalborn; you can, for instance, pay Metalborn to become sperm/egg donors, to increase their population (their donations would almost certainly be in very high demand).

I'm not saying that eugenics is morally good, but given the internal logic of the Cosmere, eugenics is perfectly rational while in the real world it is not. Given that eugenics was mainstream less than a century ago, it's not hard to imagine that people might try and use it to gain an advantage in a fictional universe where it actually works. (Not to mention that people still ascribe to it today).

The point is that the breeding program is already enough to produce the Metalborn powers, and Hemalurgy is already enough to consolidate those powers more quickly and with less effort than re-constituting the full-featured Metalborn would be, even if a breeding program works. You don't get anything extra, hemalurgically, from having a full-powered Metalborn. Plus, you get the powers yourself and don't have to worry about maintaining control or influence over someone innately more powerful and magical than you.

Once  you're going to be working on this scale you're going to have lots of castoffs, including Metalborn, so the spiking becomes even more useful to someone willing to do this, especially if you want the full-powered people. I don't know that people would be excited to donate their eggs and sperm to an industrial-scale breed-and-harvest system, nor that the payment they could receive would be attractive outside of other opportunities they might have (some would, surely). Given the dynamics of such a system, and what we've seen of power-consolidators on Scadrial, I would not be confident anyone running that system would bother to rely on voluntary participation.

Eugenics does work in the real world, just not very well nor precisely with humans. Even getting what little it offers requires people to accept things they don't generally like and do things they generally don't want to do, in exchange for little effect and no personal benefit at all. In cases of things like animal and plant husbandry eugenics has been incredibly effective for millennia; the difference is more about moral sentiment towards human vs. non-human life.

I'm not sure I would agree that it's rational for someone to want a planet full of Lord Rulers, knowing that they, themselves, would not be one of those Lord Rulers. Some people will still pursue it, certainly, but that's more Bond-villain territory than reasoned planning.

All that said, I do agree that the Scadrians will have a strong interest in increasing the Metalborn population however they can in era 3. I just don't think that trying to create more Mistborn, full Feruchemists, or Fullborn will be the specific end goal they pursue. With, perhaps, a notable exception for the Terris, who might already be trying to do that in era 2 for cultural/spiritual/political reasons.

[Schizoposting]

2 hours ago, PanLin said:

Can I ask why? Not trying to poopoo the idea (I'm enjoying this discussion) but everything I've seen about Sanderson's plans for Mistborn imply the exact opposite; that industrialisation and modernisation will make natural powers less relevant as people turn to technology and other Hemalurgic applications. The whole appeal of jumping through eras with the Mistborn series is to see the effect of technological developments on Scadrial.

I just don't think that a series called "Mistborn" is going to have zero Allomancers in it. There's a WoB somewhere, that I'm too lazy to find, that says that we will see fights between Radiants and Metalborn in the space age. There's probably going to be some drawback to medallions that makes them inferior to the real thing.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

While I don't think those numbers are necessarily off I don't think that's possible given current demographics.

That's why you have a breeding program. 

1 hour ago, Returned said:

I think the issue is that you need to have reliable and consistent control, which is very hard to do, and if you fail you have an enemy or rival that is very hard to deal with. Straff and Zane come to mind. The Metalborn don't have to be invincible, they just have to be less vincible than a person who is in a position to direct the program. Anything you have, they could also have and probably wouldn't need you to provide to them, so why do they need you?  Maybe you can persuade them, perhaps often, but what happens when you can't? If they're so trivial to defeat with modern technology, then what is the value of having the Metalborn instead of just using the technology that is already superior? This is also the biggest problem the Bene Gesserit had-- they couldn't control the powerful people they produced.

You seem to be under the presumption that all Metalborn are like Zane and are mentally unstable or will rebel for the sake of rebelling. I see no inherent reason why this has to be the case. Even if it is, a modern nation state is more than capable of neutralizing a single Mistborn or Feruchemist, and if they're unstable or prone to rebelling, they'll be incapable of working together effectively to fight the government. 

2 hours ago, Returned said:

The point is that the breeding program is already enough to produce the Metalborn powers, and Hemalurgy is already enough to consolidate those powers more quickly and with less effort than re-constituting the full-featured Metalborn would be, even if a breeding program works. You don't get anything extra, hemalurgically, from having a full-powered Metalborn. Plus, you get the powers yourself and don't have to worry about maintaining control or influence over someone innately more powerful and magical than you.

A Mistborn or Feruchemist would be far more powerful than even the strongest Hemalurgist without any of the drawbacks. So, I still think that it makes sense to breed them. 

2 hours ago, Returned said:

Once  you're going to be working on this scale you're going to have lots of castoffs, including Metalborn, so the spiking becomes even more useful to someone willing to do this, especially if you want the full-powered people. I don't know that people would be excited to donate their eggs and sperm to an industrial-scale breed-and-harvest system, nor that the payment they could receive would be attractive outside of other opportunities they might have (some would, surely). Given the dynamics of such a system, and what we've seen of power-consolidators on Scadrial, I would not be confident anyone running that system would bother to rely on voluntary participation.

I think that if you were to pay $1000 dollars per sperm donation, then a lot of people would be willing to take the deal. And I'm not necessarily talking about a government program; private individuals who are receiving sperm/egg donations will probably want to increase the chances that their children are Metalborn; I certainly would.

2 hours ago, Returned said:

I'm not sure I would agree that it's rational for someone to want a planet full of Lord Rulers, knowing that they, themselves, would not be one of those Lord Rulers. Some people will still pursue it, certainly, but that's more Bond-villain territory than reasoned planning.

All that said, I do agree that the Scadrians will have a strong interest in increasing the Metalborn population however they can in era 3. I just don't think that trying to create more Mistborn, full Feruchemists, or Fullborn will be the specific end goal they pursue. With, perhaps, a notable exception for the Terris, who might already be trying to do that in era 2 for cultural/spiritual/political reasons.

I'm not necessarily talking about aiming for a Fullborn specifically, although that's a possibility (it's not hard to imagine some fascists trying to breed a master race or something); I am talking about breeding for Metalborn in general. Again, if you're the Malwish, then creating your own population of Metalborn to compete with the North makes perfect sense; likewise of you're the Basin, then breeding Metalborn makes is a very rational way to take advantage of your advantage in this particular area. 

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

That's why you have a breeding program. 

I gave the math within that post. Even with the breeding program there simply aren't enough women on Scadrial to make it happen.

Edited February 27 by Frustration

[Returned he/him]

39 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

You seem to be under the presumption that all Metalborn are like Zane and are mentally unstable or will rebel for the sake of rebelling.

Not at all; my invocation of Straff and Zane was just to demonstrate how hard it is to control, against their will, someone so powerful. You don't have to be unstable to want to be in charge, or to not want to be under someone else's control. If someone is trying to control you, and you don't want that, and the response to your refusal is that they'll try to execute you, then rebelling or escaping are pretty reasonable courses of action. If you are ambitious and want whatever power, influence, or opportunities being in charge might offer, then supplanting the people in charge so that you can be in charge makes a lot of sense. Neither of these is good for the people already in control, and the more powerful Metalborn are fundamentally more powerful and flexible than they are. Raw power based on organization tends to have some brittleness to it, and plenty of people who achieve it spend a good deal of effort preventing rivals from being able to challenge them.

Powerful Metalborn are going to be more effective than basically anyone else in basically any application. If your only objective is that those Metalborn exist then that doesn't matter. If your plans involve using those Metalborn according to your own designs, or maintaining your own position, you can find you have really severe problems really quickly. It doesn't even have to be a rebellion or coup-- a powerful Metalborn will likely be able to outclass everyone else in nearly everything they do, so rivals without those capabilities just become obsolete.

39 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

A Mistborn or Feruchemist would be far more powerful than even the strongest Hemalurgist without any of the drawbacks. So, I still think that it makes sense to breed them. 

But that Mistborn or Feruchemist won't be you. I think we agree that the powerful Metalborn will be more powerful than a mundane person, or even a Misting or Ferring. But you haven't offered a reason why someone with the resources, influence, and determination to produce them this way would want them around. Especially when their goals might conflict.

39 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

I think that if you were to pay $1000 dollars per sperm donation, then a lot of people would be willing to take the deal. And I'm not necessarily talking about a government program; private individuals who are receiving sperm/egg donations will probably want to increase the chances that their children are Metalborn; I certainly would.

As above, certainly some would. I don't see much reason for a program like you describe to let you have and raise the children so produced, but maybe that's an unfair assumption I've read into your thread. Like I said previously, if people have a goal just that more powerful Metalborn exist then there isn't much else for them to consider. A lot of people would worry, I think, about subsequent generations of superhumans who have all the normal human flaws and failings plus irresistible powers, or about their genetic offspring being abused, exploited, or bred like dogs. It's also pretty unlikely that your own child(ren) will be Metalborn, but very likely that someone else's will be. The system you describe needs an awful lot of people to participate, consistently and over long periods of time and many generations, and genetic bottlenecks are pretty hard to get around, so "a lot" may not be sufficient to accomplish what you want.

39 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

I'm not necessarily talking about aiming for a Fullborn specifically, although that's a possibility (it's not hard to imagine some fascists trying to breed a master race or something); I am talking about breeding for Metalborn in general. Again, if you're the Malwish, then creating your own population of Metalborn to compete with the North makes perfect sense; likewise of you're the Basin, then breeding Metalborn makes is a very rational way to take advantage of your advantage in this particular area. 

Sure, but there are two considerations I will suggest:

1. This isn't achievable without massive scale. In general approach it's not dissimilar to matchmaking among the noble houses in the Final Empire, but Allomancy still declined over the 1,000 years the empire lasted. If it's so hard to actually achieve, people might not want to do the things they are required to do to pursue it. Not enough people to matter, at least, and not consistently enough and for long enough. Social cohesion does not have a great track record on Scadrial so far.

2. Why would people go to all of this trouble but not try to optimize it? Is it even possible to disentangle them the two? More Metallic Arts prevalence seems tied to concentrations of Metallic Arts power in individuals, like the children of Rashek's lerasium-Mistborn being stronger Allomancers than those in Vin's day, and the general dilution of Metallic Arts by Wax's time. Working towards more concentration of power seems like it's the same as working towards the maximum concentration of power possible.

Edited February 28 by Returned

[PanLin they/he]

1 hour ago, Schizoposting said:

I just don't think that a series called "Mistborn" is going to have zero Allomancers in it.

That's... not even remotely what I'm claiming?

1 hour ago, Schizoposting said:

There's a WoB somewhere, that I'm too lazy to find, that says that we will see fights between Radiants and Metalborn in the space age.

Sure, but it's a big leap to go from 'there will be Metalborn in the future' to assuming a planet-wide eugenics programme is a logical probability.

1 hour ago, Schizoposting said:

There's probably going to be some drawback to medallions that makes them inferior to the real thing.

Sorry, where are you getting the 'probably' from for that? Maybe, sure, but it would take some big drawbacks for them to switch resources to such a hail mary.

The Scadrians we saw on Canticle were tech-heavy researchers who shared Hemalurgic secrets in exchange for Invested test subjects. Plus (spoilers for Emberdark):

Spoiler

In the future, we've seen the Malwish using awakened metalminds all over the place and littering Scadrian space with steel fields so their ships can navigate them.

All the evidence we actually have on Scadrial implies they're becoming a technological powerhouse with an interest in Invested people and a much stronger grasp on Hemalurgy than we've seen before. The most likely programme of the nature you're proposing would probably only be started if the goal were just to create lots of people with Preservation's investiture to then steal with H-Nicrosil or whatever (which we've actually seen in-text).

Now, if that spiritual research leads them to a breakthrough on Spiritweb manipulation that allows them to understand the secrets of what parentage (or other context) causes the birth of which abilities, then sure! I can absolutely see them running a eugenics programme.

My pushback here is just that, seeing as we don't know what causes certain Metalborn to be born (or if it's even something that can be controlled), this sort of programme just isn't worth the resources.

1 hour ago, Schizoposting said:

A Mistborn or Feruchemist would be far more powerful than even the strongest Hemalurgist without any of the drawbacks. So, I still think that it makes sense to breed them. 

Maybe, just becomes an ROI thing at that point. Thousands, if not millions, of forced births to maybe achieve one person with the desired results, or repeatable medallions that just require maintenance of a healthy population of existing Mistings and Ferrings, supplemented with Hemalurgy?

As in my unaddressed point above, a programme like this requires repeatable and reliable matchings in order to be successful, which just isn't the case for Metalborn people according to all the evidence we currently have.

Unless you do both at once. Do the breeding programme, while logging exactly which Metalborn come from which parents under which conditions, and spike everyone you don't need along the way. If someone is already committing to eugenics, I'm sure they wouldn't blanche at mass murder. I would still put such a project in the 'possible' pile rather than the 'we ought to see this' one.

Edited February 28 by PanLin

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

Footnote: Brandon's response was very enthusiastic. He noted how perceptive the question was, and obviously enjoyed the discussion. The reporter has expressed their regret at lack of an audio recording to share his enthusiasm.

I'm just imagining Branon lighting up and saying 'YIPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE'

[Duxredux he/him]

I did a bit of digging and even at a cursory glance it seems that the Bene Gesserit's powerset specifically enables this long-term breeding program in ways that would be difficult to replicate on Scadrial. 

Spoilers from the Bene Gesserit Wikipedia page:

Spoiler

I'm referring to the literal mind control powers (The Voice), the collective memories and agenda passed down mother to daughter (Other Memory) and that's just scratching the surface. Not too hard to see how these are pretty solid requirements or distinct advantages for the Bene Gesserit to play the genetic long game.

Hypothetically, elements of this could be recreated on Scadrial with a combination of Rioting/Soothing and Hemalurgic Spiked targets for mind control and an Unkeyed/Unsealed Coppermind for passing down memory, but that is not generally a heritable package deal like it is for the Bene Gesserit - and even then there are huge hiccups.

Now I haven't read or seen Dune, so take this with a pinch of copper, but I would guess the Bene Gesserit work in Dune because of the rest of the scaffolding in place. Multi-generational genetic engineering is by no means a given without their abilities that give substantially more control over the process.

[Schizoposting]

16 hours ago, Frustration said:

I gave the math within that post. Even with the breeding program there simply aren't enough women on Scadrial to make it happen.

The point of a breeding program would be to increase the number of people who are Mistborn/Feruchemists, so even if you get one Mistborn out of 256 Mistings, the program will allow you to breed the resulting Mistborn to increase their number.

15 hours ago, Returned said:

Not at all; my invocation of Straff and Zane was just to demonstrate how hard it is to control, against their will, someone so powerful. You don't have to be unstable to want to be in charge, or to not want to be under someone else's control. If someone is trying to control you, and you don't want that, and the response to your refusal is that they'll try to execute you, then rebelling or escaping are pretty reasonable courses of action. If you are ambitious and want whatever power, influence, or opportunities being in charge might offer, then supplanting the people in charge so that you can be in charge makes a lot of sense. Neither of these is good for the people already in control, and the more powerful Metalborn are fundamentally more powerful and flexible than they are. Raw power based on organization tends to have some brittleness to it, and plenty of people who achieve it spend a good deal of effort preventing rivals from being able to challenge them.

How do you expect a single Mistborn to take over an entire nation state? This is just not possible. Even if they somehow manage to assassinate the head of state, that's not going to do it. Mistborn, like Shardbearers cannot hold ground. Thus, it would be trivial for said nation state to make it in the best interest of the Metalborn to collaborate with them, via a combination of carrot and stick.

16 hours ago, Returned said:

But that Mistborn or Feruchemist won't be you. I think we agree that the powerful Metalborn will be more powerful than a mundane person, or even a Misting or Ferring. But you haven't offered a reason why someone with the resources, influence, and determination to produce them this way would want them around. Especially when their goals might conflict.

So? A Metalborn can be a useful tool even if you yourself are not one.

16 hours ago, Returned said:

As above, certainly some would. I don't see much reason for a program like you describe to let you have and raise the children so produced, but maybe that's an unfair assumption I've read into your thread. Like I said previously, if people have a goal just that more powerful Metalborn exist then there isn't much else for them to consider. A lot of people would worry, I think, about subsequent generations of superhumans who have all the normal human flaws and failings plus irresistible powers, or about their genetic offspring being abused, exploited, or bred like dogs. It's also pretty unlikely that your own child(ren) will be Metalborn, but very likely that someone else's will be. The system you describe needs an awful lot of people to participate, consistently and over long periods of time and many generations, and genetic bottlenecks are pretty hard to get around, so "a lot" may not be sufficient to accomplish what you want.

In this particular case, I am referring to donations to private individuals, the same way these donations work today in the real world. This was just an example of how the North could engage in eugenics without actually having to breed the Metalborn themselves. 

16 hours ago, Returned said:

This isn't achievable without massive scale. In general approach it's not dissimilar to matchmaking among the noble houses in the Final Empire, but Allomancy still declined over the 1,000 years the empire lasted. If it's so hard to actually achieve, people might not want to do the things they are required to do to pursue it. Not enough people to matter, at least, and not consistently enough and for long enough. Social cohesion does not have a great track record on Scadrial so far.

Again, even if it costs a few billion dollars a year, that's easily affordable by a major nation state.

15 hours ago, PanLin said:

That's... not even remotely what I'm claiming?

"When everyone's super... No one will be."

15 hours ago, PanLin said:

Sure, but it's a big leap to go from 'there will be Metalborn in the future' to assuming a planet-wide eugenics programme is a logical probability.

Your argument was that technological development would make a Metalborn breeding program superfluous, because Metalborn themselves would become superfluous. Given that they are not in fact irrelevant in the space age, means that said argument is invalid. 

15 hours ago, PanLin said:

Maybe, just becomes an ROI thing at that point. Thousands, if not millions, of forced births to maybe achieve one person with the desired results, or repeatable medallions that just require maintenance of a healthy population of existing Mistings and Ferrings, supplemented with Hemalurgy?

Given that many thousands of women in the real world are willing to be surrogates, finding women for the program is not going to be a particularly difficult task.

15 hours ago, PanLin said:

As in my unaddressed point above, a programme like this requires repeatable and reliable matchings in order to be successful, which just isn't the case for Metalborn people according to all the evidence we currently have.

I don't see what the problem is supposed to be; Allomantic/Feruchemical potential can bred like any other recessive trait. You don't need advanced genetic knowledge to breed animals; humanity has been doing it for thousands of years.

2 hours ago, Duxredux said:

I did a bit of digging and even at a cursory glance it seems that the Bene Gesserit's powerset specifically enables this long-term breeding program in ways that would be difficult to replicate on Scadrial. 

These powers are not an inherent part of their breeding program. Maybe it makes them better at seduction, but the breeding program itself is not reliant on it.

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Schizoposting said:

The point of a breeding program would be to increase the number of people who are Mistborn/Feruchemists, so even if you get one Mistborn out of 256 Mistings, the program will allow you to breed the resulting Mistborn to increase their number.

You seem to be moving the goal post here

From your original post

On 2/27/2026 at 11:36 AM, Schizoposting said:

Through this process, you can create a sizable population of metalborns (i.e. > 100) in a couple decades, and over the course centuries you can create Mistborn, Feruchemists, or even Fullborn. All of this should be pretty trivial for a nation state, or even a sufficiently powerful organization. 

As I showed above you would need anywhere from 256 thousand to 15 million individuals to even have one mistborn. And to get that you have to intentionally avoid anyone with Terris heritage to avoid the powers interfering with each other. This is further complicated because you need an allomancer within the last five generations in order to even have the chance to be one. TFE chapter 20.

Now even if you got two mistborn and they had children their offspring are not guaranteed to be mistborn, or even allomancers to start with, and so you have to go though even more genetics watching.

That is an experiment the likes of which has never been attempted before.

 

Increasing the amount of metalborn in the population is possible. Causing the reappearance of Mistborn or Feruchemists is possible but highly unlikely. Creating large numbers of Mistborn, Feruchemists or Fullborn would be neigh impossible

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

I think you are counting the Bene Gesserit short. They do not just manipulate genetics, but that is a notable part of the program. The part of what they do that is more terrifying in the Cosmere is that they control religious belief. Paul could have been as prescient and super human as anyone, but he would not have been a meaningful Emperor if the planet Dune had not had its culture manipulated to expect and accept a foreign savior figure.

A Kwisatz Haderach is not that scary. We learn in Dune Messiah that there have been groups who have made such figures in the past of the setting. What is scary is the society that knows how to use these creations as instruments of control and subtle power.

And that shows the real horror that would occur if such an organization was possible in the Cosmere: Imagine people who see a holy war that kills tens of millions and their only thought is "Ah, but this Shard Vessel is imperfect as we do not control him. This plan must be given another attempt." They are something like the demons in Frieren, where concepts like "God" have no real meaning to them except that they know others will respond in predictable ways to it.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

As I showed above you would need anywhere from 256 thousand to 15 million individuals to even have one mistborn. And to get that you have to intentionally avoid anyone with Terris heritage to avoid the powers interfering with each other. This is further complicated because you need an allomancer within the last five generations in order to even have the chance to be one. TFE chapter 20.

Now even if you got two mistborn and they had children their offspring are not guaranteed to be mistborn, or even allomancers to start with, and so you have to go though even more genetics watching.

That is an experiment the likes of which has never been attempted before.

 

Increasing the amount of metalborn in the population is possible. Causing the reappearance of Mistborn or Feruchemists is possible but highly unlikely. Creating large numbers of Mistborn, Feruchemists or Fullborn would be neigh impossible

I think the 1 in 1,000 number is among the general population. Allomancers would have significantly higher chances at having Misting or Ferring children, which would help a breeding program out. My evidence for that is that we did see the Set basically setting up a breeding plan, so obviously it was viable in some way. Since the odds must be much better than 1 in 1,000 for such a plan to be viable, they likely are. I believe the kandra said it was likely the Terris would have a full feruchemist born within a few generations given their efforts to consolidate their bloodline, so that's possible as well.

Still incredibly immoral, but given that at least one group has already tried to do something similar to a breeding program, I don't see it as all too unlikely that other groups will continue, especially as modern science makes things like sperm donation possible/easier. Now, bene gesserit level? Probably not. Before we get to that point, scientists will probably have figured out how to make Lerasium or replicate the Bands of Mourning.

[Frustration]

53 minutes ago, NameIess said:

I think the 1 in 1,000 number is among the general population. Allomancers would have significantly higher chances at having Misting or Ferring children, which would help a breeding program out. My evidence for that is that we did see the Set basically setting up a breeding plan, so obviously it was viable in some way. Since the odds must be much better than 1 in 1,000 for such a plan to be viable, they likely are. I believe the kandra said it was likely the Terris would have a full feruchemist born within a few generations given their efforts to consolidate their bloodline, so that's possible as well.

Still incredibly immoral, but given that at least one group has already tried to do something similar to a breeding program, I don't see it as all too unlikely that other groups will continue, especially as modern science makes things like sperm donation possible/easier. Now, bene gesserit level? Probably not. Before we get to that point, scientists will probably have figured out how to make Lerasium or replicate the Bands of Mourning.

I agree that it is among the general population. However to get enough participants I don't think that there would be enough Mistings who would volunteer, even for substancial cash payouts.

Not to mention you still need enough women to serve as surrogates, which while not necessarily going to affect the genetics, but they can be counted in our total population figures.

I honestly am of the opinion that the Set was not too forceful with a breeding program they just wanted allomancers as it was necessary for a perpendicularity.

On feruchemists the Terris tend to keep to themselves, which does make that quite significantly easier as their genetics aren't as dispersed.

[Oranjejuicemonki He/Him]

On 2/27/2026 at 4:22 PM, Schizoposting said:

I just don't think that a series called "Mistborn" is going to have zero Allomancers in it.

Hmmmmmm

WaT Spoilers:

Spoiler

Stormlight isn't gonna have any more stormlight lol.

I guess the next arc will technically be the Voidlight Archive but still.

 

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, Oranjejuicemonki said:

Hmmmmmm

WaT Spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Stormlight isn't gonna have any more stormlight lol.

I guess the next arc will technically be the Voidlight Archive but still.

 

This is the cosmere board, you only need spoiler tags for Isles.

[PanLin they/he]

21 hours ago, Schizoposting said:

"When everyone's super... No one will be."

While I do actually quote that a lot (great quote), I wasn't trying to say Metalborn will stop existing. Syndrome wanted to replace Supers entirely by giving non-powered people technological abilities. Scadrians are already dealing with a population that is decreasing in Invested potential, and are exploring ways to innovate with new (and sometimes alien) technology and hold onto past abilities (spikes) in order to create stronger Invested people.

Like Frustration said, I think you're moving the goalposts of your original "we ought to see this breeding programme as it's logical and possible to concentrate Metalborn powers to recreate Mistborn and Fullborn":

On 2/27/2026 at 6:36 PM, Schizoposting said:

the metallic arts, which are also genetic in nature

a Bene Gesserit style breeding program ought to be applicable

you can do the usual artificial selection to breed for your desired traits

All of this should be pretty trivial

we ought to see people attempting (or even succeeding) at doing this

everybody should have a metalborn breeding program

I'm fully on board with people across Scadrial trying to breed for Allomantic potential (as others have mentioned, the Set already tried something like this, and it happened on a smaller scale during the Final Empire). My point is, and has always been, simply that Metalborn inheritance does not work in a way that would allow people to selectively breed for specific powers, let alone to consolidate them into one person.

21 hours ago, Schizoposting said:

Your argument was that technological development would make a Metalborn breeding program superfluous, because Metalborn themselves would become superfluous. Given that they are not in fact irrelevant in the space age, means that said argument is invalid. 

'Less relevant' does not equal 'superfluous', and you've missed the point of my argument. In fact, natural-born Metalborn will continue to be incredibly valuable. Unfortunately, Metalborn traits are not physically genetic and therefore cannot be selectively bred for.

If we get spiritual genetics involved, though? Direct Spiritweb manipulations, creation of more artificial Lerasium, etc? Then we might see something like this.

21 hours ago, Schizoposting said:

I don't see what the problem is supposed to be; Allomantic/Feruchemical potential can bred like any other recessive trait. You don't need advanced genetic knowledge to breed animals; humanity has been doing it for thousands of years.

But it can't, not in the way you set out in your original message. Metalborn traits are not reliably presented and passed on like breeding sheep for thicker wool, or breeding Pokemon for specific IVs.

Allomantic potential in general? Maybe, but it isn't guaranteed, and we know the potential of the general population has been dropping since the Lord Ruler started his empire despite groups of people working to preserve it. Specific abilities? Absolutely not, at least not with current Scadrian understanding.

So to clarify, as I think the discussion has drifted from where we started:

I agree that groups of people might be breeding selectively to try to preserve/strengthen Metalborn potential. I do not think it is viable or possible to set up a large scale project with the goal of creating people with specific powers (let alone Mistborn or Fullborn) without a greater understanding and capability of Spiritweb modifications, as Metalborn abilities are not a physically genetic trait. These modifications have slowly started with Hemalurgy research, and based on what we have seen in-text, Scadrians seem more interested in technological developments than genetic ones, but would absolutely jump at the chance to reliably create new Metalborn if their knowledge, technology, and realmatic abilities allow for it.

13 hours ago, Oranjejuicemonki said:

Stormlight isn't gonna have any more stormlight lol.

I guess the next arc will technically be the Voidlight Archive but still.

I so nearly brought this up myself  also, surely it'll be the Warlight Archives if anything?

Edited March 1 by PanLin

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

This thread is genuinely reprehensible.

I will not engage with it further, and I post this that anyone else who feels uncomfortable with creating plans for this sort of thing knows that they are not alone in that.

[Schizoposting]

18 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

I think you are counting the Bene Gesserit short. They do not just manipulate genetics, but that is a notable part of the program. The part of what they do that is more terrifying in the Cosmere is that they control religious belief. Paul could have been as prescient and super human as anyone, but he would not have been a meaningful Emperor if the planet Dune had not had its culture manipulated to expect and accept a foreign savior figure.

With his levels of prescience, he could have manipulated events to eventually to take over the empire, even if he started from nothing—like the Mule from Foundation.

18 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

A Kwisatz Haderach is not that scary. We learn in Dune Messiah that there have been groups who have made such figures in the past of the setting. What is scary is the society that knows how to use these creations as instruments of control and subtle power.

The Tleilaxu may have made Kwisatz Haderachs, but they didn't have access to prescience, otherwise they wouldn't have to rely on the Space Guild, nor would they be so beholden to Leto II.   

19 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

And that shows the real horror that would occur if such an organization was possible in the Cosmere: Imagine people who see a holy war that kills tens of millions and their only thought is "Ah, but this Shard Vessel is imperfect as we do not control him. This plan must be given another attempt." They are something like the demons in Frieren, where concepts like "God" have no real meaning to them except that they know others will respond in predictable ways to it.

We already have such a thing in the Cosmere—Cultivation.

15 hours ago, PanLin said:

While I do actually quote that a lot (great quote), I wasn't trying to say Metalborn will stop existing. Syndrome wanted to replace Supers entirely by giving non-powered people technological abilities.

How exactly is this different from medallions giving non-invested people access to the Metallic arts?

15 hours ago, PanLin said:

Scadrians are already dealing with a population that is decreasing in Invested potential, and are exploring ways to innovate with new (and sometimes alien) technology and hold onto past abilities (spikes) in order to create stronger Invested people.

That's not true; the population stopped decreasing in invested potential by era 2. If medallions are just as good as the real thing, then Metalborn we be replaced.

16 hours ago, PanLin said:

Like Frustration said, I think you're moving the goalposts of your original "we ought to see this breeding programme as it's logical and possible to concentrate Metalborn powers to recreate Mistborn and Fullborn"

I am not moving any goal posts—my claim is, and always has been, that given the internal logic of the Cosmere, it makes sense to create a breeding program to breed Metalborn. Whether or not you can actually breed Fullborn, is incidental. 

16 hours ago, PanLin said:

'Less relevant' does not equal 'superfluous', and you've missed the point of my argument. In fact, natural-born Metalborn will continue to be incredibly valuable. Unfortunately, Metalborn traits are not physically genetic and therefore cannot be selectively bred for.

If medallions can perfectly replicate the metallic arts at a low cost, then no, natural born Metalborn will not be "incredibly valuable". But, if this is not the case, then it makes sense to breed for them. You can't have it both ways.

16 hours ago, PanLin said:

But it can't, not in the way you set out in your original message. Metalborn traits are not reliably presented and passed on like breeding sheep for thicker wool, or breeding Pokemon for specific IVs.

This is false. We know from WoB that powers which a given misting has is not random, but rather genetic. But even disregarding this point, we know for a fact that Allomatic/Feruchemical potential is genetic; that if you have the potential, then your children are more likely to have it themselves; and finally, that it's possible for children to have a higher potential/strength than their parents. All of this makes it possible to breed for greater and greater strength, and yes, even Mistborn/Feruchemists.

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

4 hours ago, Schizoposting said:

With his levels of prescience, he could have manipulated events to eventually to take over the empire, even if he started from nothing—like the Mule from Foundation.

I do not believe you. I think you have a poor understanding of Dune. Paul identifies a narrow golden path which satisfies his desire to avenge his family. Part of why he is able to do that is because the Fremen culture is molded to accept him as a divine savior instead of just a useful seer. However, he notes that this means his plan will result in millions slaughter in his name, which he eventually just decides is cool actually (funniest part of Dune Messiah is Paul getting WW2 history wrong while he gloats about killing more people than Hitler). Also, I would point out the Bene Gesserit are not themselves prescient, they too depend on the guild despite their own program producing a being which does have that ability.