Would you have joined Odium?

[Frustration]

The debate between Taravangian and Jasnah is one of the more controversial parts of WaT.

 

In this thread I don't necessarily want to ask what you thought of the debate(though you may if you want), instead my question is:

If you were Fen, would you have join3d Odium?

[ChillPenguin]

I think it depends on whether you are a fight tyranny no matter the cost or a survive to fight another day kind of person. I’d know Odium was up to something and that by myself I didn’t have much leverage. Even though I’d wonder about another leader’s motivations, Jasnah being there would show she intends to support. If I knew the position that the singers and Fused have with Odium there is no question I’d refuse him - why would he treat humans any differently?

[Trusk'our he/him]

30 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The debate between Taravangian and Jasnah is one of the more controversial parts of WaT.

 

In this thread I don't necessarily want to ask what you thought of the debate(though you may if you want), instead my question is:

If you were Fen, would you have join3d Odium?

The problem for me is that there are multiple issues with not doing so.

Not only is my kingdom rigged to lose all of its major ports if I don't join- which will cut off its primary source of income and cultural significance- but the super creepy old-man god said to my face that he will burn my kingdom and its people down in order to conquer it if I don't accept his terms. And I find it hard not to believe that on some level.

On the other hand, he is very obviously evil and will try to harm me and my people's wellbeing in the future. It's just in his nature. People like him, especially those with power, will not seek the wellbeing of those they dominate in the long term.

All and all, if I'm actually me in this scenario, I think I'd choose not to join. Not because it seems like the smart thing, at least the the relatively short-term, but because it's the right thing. I don't really trust Jasnah after she'd been revealed to have written up plans to murder me if I became a liability, and we'll need to discuss that and work it out afterwards, but I know for a fact that joining Taravodium is bad morally. And I'm going to have to lean on my personal faith in God to help me and my kingdom out after I choose not to join, because it's just not the right thing to join him, no matter what his threats are now.

It will be way worse in the future for my people if I take the easy route now I'm sure, so better to handle it now while we've still got some Alethi buddies around.

[Jult]

There was a moment in the debate where Taravangian pointed out that Jasnah doesn't serve the greater good. She instead serves her greater good. I don't remember the exact phrasing. But I agreed heavily with it. Most of the Kholins are guilty of this especially the ones who got thrones (Jasnah, Elhokar, Gavilar, and Dalinar). As cool as the Kholins are, I have very little respect for any of them besides Renarin and sometimes Adolin.

However, Taravangian is also a bully and a hypocrite. In my eyes, the main difference is that he has the bigger guns. Heck, he was threatening to wipe out Thaylenah then and there.

I don't feel great about it.. But I'd probably do what Fen did. Siding with the Kholins would have been a crazy gamble. I could see myself taking that risk as an individual, but as a monarch? No way am I risking the lives of my people like that. It's a decision made under duress. But it's still a decision.

[Qianweilian He/him]

23 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

The problem for me is that there are multiple issues with not doing so.

The main problem is his agents on the Thaylen Council and his assassins. I would threaten Odium (as he is still Odium at this point and thus cannot smite me) with revealing his secret destruction and subsequent preservation of Kharbranth in the SR.

Quote

RandyD

Can a Shard just smite someone? Like, "Boom, you're dead," and they die?

Brandon Sanderson

So, Shards can do this, depending on where they are. For instance, Odium can't, but Endowment could.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

Assuming he doesn’t want Cultivation to know his vulnerability, then I’d require him to withdraw his Fused and use his agents to make myself more powerful to ignore the Merchant Council. With that, I would prepare Thaylenah for what will be essentially a blockade, unless ports are opened. If possible, I’d attempt to demand more concessions like the opening of various ports, specifically the rivers leading into Azir and the Shattered Plains. With access to Azir, we’d be able to connect all the free nations together (as long as Urithiru’s magic barrier goes away eventually). I’d eventually try to create a fairly democratic nation, with an expanded Thaylen Council. With the agreement still in place to protect from Retribution and access to trade with Azir/Urithiru/Narak, Thaylenah would likely be alright, even if in a bit of a recession. Hopefully with the help of maybe Navani/the Urithiru artifabrians, Stormlight could be recreated with either Warlight or liquid from Retribution’s perpendicularity. With the areas being unpopulated and uncontrolled, hopefully the Frostlands and former Kharbranth could be settled to expand Thaylenah’s territory.

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

The main problem is his agents on the Thaylen Council and his assassins. I would threaten Odium (as he is still Odium at this point and thus cannot smite me) with revealing his secret destruction and subsequent preservation of Kharbranth in the SR.

Assuming he doesn’t want Cultivation to know his vulnerability, then I’d require him to withdraw his Fused and use his agents to make myself more powerful to ignore the Merchant Council. With that, I would prepare Thaylenah for what will be essentially a blockade, unless ports are opened. If possible, I’d attempt to demand more concessions like the opening of various ports, specifically the rivers leading into Azir and the Shattered Plains. With access to Azir, we’d be able to connect all the free nations together (as long as Urithiru’s magic barrier goes away eventually). I’d eventually try to create a fairly democratic nation, with an expanded Thaylen Council. With the agreement still in place to protect from Retribution and access to trade with Azir/Urithiru/Narak, Thaylenah would likely be alright, even if in a bit of a recession. Hopefully with the help of maybe Navani/the Urithiru artifabrians, Stormlight could be recreated with either Warlight or liquid from Retribution’s perpendicularity. With the areas being unpopulated and uncontrolled, hopefully the Frostlands and former Kharbranth could be settled to expand Thaylenah’s territory.

How would you learn about Kharbranth?

[Trusk'our he/him]

18 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

The main problem is his agents on the Thaylen Council and his assassins. I would threaten Odium (as he is still Odium at this point and thus cannot smite me) with revealing his secret destruction and subsequent preservation of Kharbranth in the SR.

I'm imagining I don't have the meta knowledge of his assassins. They'd probably just kill me after I'd made my decision, or if I was lucky Jasnah would be sticking around (as we'd be having a "chat") and she could use her Radiant powers and soldiers to keep me alive. I may not trust her, but it's not in best interest or nature to let an ally die.

[Oranjejuicemonki He/Him]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

The debate between Taravangian and Jasnah is one of the more controversial parts of WaT.

 

In this thread I don't necessarily want to ask what you thought of the debate(though you may if you want), instead my question is:

If you were Fen, would you have joined Odium?

I think that if I were put in that situation, I would choose to not join Odium just on the fact that I'm already biased against him and whatever he wants I want the opposite. However, I think he does have a compelling argument and Taravangian himself if just pretty convincing. I can definitely see how she chose what she did in the moment.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

I reject the framing of this as a choice.  There is no alternative to Odium, as the coalition has placed itself outside of the possibility of negotiation and alliance

[Frustration]

45 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I reject the framing of this as a choice.  There is no alternative to Odium, as the coalition has placed itself outside of the possibility of negotiation and alliance

They were already an alliance.

Theylanah was one of the first members

[Kansas Stormcursed he/him]

Yes

Yes, I would have

[NameIess]

Yeah, although hopefully I would’ve been smart enough to include something like “shield us from the Everstorm” in the agreement. It’s just… actually the best decision for your country. By the metrics of nations, agreeing is the best decision. Maybe even the moral decision. You can A: doom your kingdom to poverty, and an eventual but inevitable fall to Odium in the distant future, when he tricks your descendants into attacking out of desperation or B: negotiate a good deal, lead your kingdom to prosperity while facing a minimum of hardship due to the war, since your citizens are exempt from drafts or pressure to join up. Sure, you’re still supporting a war against the Cosmere that’s morally iffy at best, but if the other option is suffering and eventual dominion under Odium, I’ll shoulder that burden.

Edited January 27 by NameIess

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

I think I would have acknowledged that joining Odium would be the right decision, and then not done so out of stubbornness and spite. 

[alder24]

While Jasnah has proven herself to be untrustworthy, it’s not really that surprising as that is simply a true Alethi way, something to be expected. And Fen did expect Dalinar to betray her and plot to conquer her kingdom in OB all the time. It’s also not that surprising that Jasnah prioritizes her family and kingdom over the Coalition, most people do that, Fen included. Fen has every reason not to trust Jasnah after all she heard, but Taravangian is even less trustworthy than Jasnah, even as a Shard bound by rules - he’s already exploited a stupid loophole in the contract, why would you trust him not to exploit any loopholes he leaves on purpose in the contract between him and Fen? That’s just insanity. Not to mention all his schemes and assassinations across Roshar (I don’t remember if Thaylenah was targeted by Szeth, but probably was), what he did in Jah Keved, his betrayal during the True Desolation and so on. There is no storming way I would trust this man no matter what he promises me. 

I would stick with Jasnah, who I now know has plans to kill me, but that honestly wouldn’t surprise me that much. I might not like it at all, but she's not a leader of the Coalition, Dalinar is. This can be easily resolved by talking and having Dalinar mediating between us (Dalinar who has become a good friend by now). Dalinar stood alone in the breach in the wall of the Thaylen city, risking his life and facing the entire enemy army and their god all by himself and thus he proved himself to be worthy of my loyalty. He didn't abandon me when all seemed to be lost, so betraying my allies and friends and switching sides to join a god, that ruined my city, attacked it and killed many of my people, a god that’s clearly evil, a person that’s even worse than Rayse, is just not something I would do, even if in the end it was proven to be the right decision to be made for Thaylenah.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

They were already an alliance.

Theylanah was one of the first members

Alliances are based on good faith, of which the Kholins prove themselves incapable.  Repeatedly.  Being unbound by obligation in their deeds, they cannot justly call upon obligation in others.

Edited January 27 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Frustration]

10 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Alliances are based on good faith, of which the Kholins prove themselves incapable.  Repeatedly.  Being unbound by obligation in their deeds, they cannot justly call upon obligation in others.

Wasn't Theylenah saved in Oathbringer because of them? Didn't Dalinar rebuild the city, and Renarin heal its people? Didn't Adolin bring down the thunderclast and the armies of Urithiru save the city? Didn't they commit large forces to protect Theylenah in WaT?

They very much did honor their obligations to Fen and her kingdom.

Edited January 27 by Frustration

[Qianweilian He/him]

It’s true, I wouldn’t have had knowledge of Kharbranth. Now that I have some more time to think, here’s what I would do. 

I would still reject Taravangian’s offer. Once the assassins took control of the Thaylen Council, which of course I wouldn’t have knowledge of, I’d probably have to get Jasnah’s help. With her authoritarian tendencies—although she claims otherwise—Jasnah would probably be willing to help me self-coup so the Thaylen Council cannot relieve me of power. would of course, force her to reveal any assassins or agents in Thaylenah. After this, as I said in my original response, I’ll probably try to settle the build infrastructure through the Frostlands and former Kharbranth so I can reach Narak.

My reasons are thus: I obviously can’t trust Taravangian. He’ll either find a loophole in any agreement I make or make the agreement irrelevant somehow. Also, while I’d consider myself slightly leaning to a realist/utilitarian perspective (although not nearly as much as Taravangian or Jasnah), joining Odium would be a betrayal of everything the Coalition was for. 

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Wasn't Theylenah saved in Oathbringer because of them? Didn't Dalinar rebuild the city, and Renarin heal its people? Didn't Adolin bring down the thunderclast and the armies of Urithiru save the city? Didn't they commit large forces to protect Theylenah in WaT?

They did.  These are true things.

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

They very much did honor their obligations to Fen and her kingdom.

I disagree with this, however.  One of the self-evident obligations in such an alliance between monarchies is "We do not assassinate one another, nor make plans or preparations to do so".

 

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

They did.  These are true things.

I disagree with this, however.  One of the self-evident obligations in such an alliance between monarchies is "We do not assassinate one another, nor make plans or preparations to do so".

And you can fault her for it, as do I. But Jasnah as an individual, or even Alethkar as a whole is only one member of the coalition. What did Azimir do to Fen? What did Herdaz or Urithiru do?

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

35 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And you can fault her for it, as do I. But Jasnah as an individual, or even Alethkar as a whole is only one member of the coalition. What did Azimir do to Fen? What did Herdaz or Urithiru do?

Jasnah rules Alethkar, and Alethkar rules the coalition ("rules" isn't quite the right word here, perhaps, maybe something more like "dominates", "controls", "commands", or "has unchecked power over" might be closer to what I'm trying to say).  Inasmuch as Jasnah is the representative of such, she acts as the personification and embodiment of what she represents.  Inasmuch as Queen Fen is the same for Thaylenah, she acts as the personification and embodiment of what she represents.

The individual and the thing the individual controls, embodies, makes decisions for, and represents are not, in this context, separate.

Thus, in this context (note:  in this context), "Jasnah cannot be trusted or negotiated with" is the same thing as "Alethkar's monarchy cannot be trusted or negotiated with" is the same thing as "the coalition cannot be trusted or negotiated with".

Edited January 27 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Qianweilian He/him]

25 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Jasnah rules Alethkar, and Alethkar rules the coalition ("rules" isn't quite the right word here, perhaps, maybe something more like "dominates", "controls", "commands", or "has unchecked power over" might be closer to what I'm trying to say). 

I would disagree, Jasnah has much less power than you would think. Dalinar and Navani really “dominate” the coalition, and they are monarchs of Urithiru, not Alethkar, while Jasnah rules over lands she doesn’t even control.

27 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Inasmuch as Jasnah is the representative of such, she acts as the personification and embodiment of what she represents.

But she’s not the official nor unofficial representative of the Coalition. The Coalition of Monarchs is very emphasized to be equal. The best representative for the Coalition would be Adolin, the only person who actually acted on behalf of the Coalition in a non-strategic manner. 

32 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Thus, in this context (note:  in this context), "Jasnah cannot be trusted or negotiated with" is the same thing as "Alethkar's monarchy cannot be trusted or negotiated with" is the same thing as "the coalition cannot be trusted or negotiated with".

I disagree, and the main driver of the argument was not trust, although that certainly played a part, Taravangian was far less trustworthy. The main driver was utilitarianism, whether acting with honor was worth it despite the costs, and what it means to act honorably. It’s definitely arguable that Jasnah is not to be trusted, but that doesn’t justify a complete betrayal and defection to the opposing side.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

Well, since the question is "would you", not "what do you think of it" or "was it right", I'll bow out of this rather than derail the thread any further.  My position has been stated.

Edited January 27 by Aliroz-The-Confused