To Kill a Herald

Immortal Platypus · January 19

1 hour ago, therunner said:

The halting of his mantra is him snapping out of his insensate state as a reaction to outside stimulus.

He is muttering his mantra, Fused orders to kill everyone, and Taln reacts to that and stops muttering.

I agree. What I'm saying is that he doesn't fight at all while insensate (except perhaps the dart, as previously mentioned, I don't recall that at all). Therefore, if the emotion blast is stunning to an even somewhat comparable degree (a huge "if", it's almost certainly not, though I do still think it is somewhat stunning), that would be the only chance I could think of.

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I meant that they won't be literally paralyzed by the duralaumin emotion blast.

Stun grenades are designed to stun, that doesn't mean their victim cannot try to fight back anyway.

And as Taln shows, at least some Heralds can defended themselves purely reactively.

I think certain people probably would be literally paralyzed, if you've ever heard someone with really bad depression that manifests as apathy, it sounds like it can feel literally paralyzing. I don't have depression, but I do experience intense apathy from time to time, and the lack of desire to do anything is insane and hard to describe. Now, if I was in a life/death situation, it would likely be different, but I'm just using this as an example of real "paralysis" that is similar to an emotion blast.

that said, this strategy is very much not guaranteed to work, I just think it is more likely to work than most strategies. even if it has a 1% chance of success, attacking the Herald head-on probably has less than that, which would make this a better strategy. Far from perfect, but it has a chance.

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Conversely you could think that someone who has experienced torture for decades/centuries will have different thresholds for what is 'stunning'.

And per this WoB holding a lot of Breaths (i.e. being Invested) would mean allomancy will have less of an effect

Even just on 3rd Oath, Kaladin was Invested enough to count as some Heightening (without any Stormlight in him), and Heralds are at least Returned level in their Investiture.

So based on that, Heralds will be more difficult to influence with emotional Allomancy.

I think there are a few amplifiers to consider when talking about emotional Allomancy vs heralds.

1) years of torture

2) levels of investiture

personally, I think that years of torture that opened up cracks in their psyche that were so bad that in some cases they were known for something beforehand and are the exact opposite now (Kalak with decision/indecision) make it a higher chance of them getting stunned. There is an argument to be made from the opposite POV that they would be less susceptible, but I don't think it holds water. based on the Heralds holding out for much longer between the early desolations than the late ones, I think it's safe to say that the thousands of years of torture didn't build their mental fortitude, it weakened it.

as for the levels of investiture, you're right. I will note that Brandon doesn't explicitly say that it's the Investiture that's causing it rather than an inherent property of Breaths specifically, but that's being nitpicky, and his meaning seems clear to me. The question then is if the investiture is enough to nullify the years of torture and the inherent strength of duralumin emotional Allomancy, and I'm not convinced it is. I think it could go either way.

Full stop, if it's Taln that we're trying to kill, I think we already lost. I personally think that he would be largely immune to the stunning effects of emotion blasts (due to his proven mental fortitude) and his fighting prowess outmatches anyone in the cosmere. if it's basically any of the other heralds (with the exception of Nale and Kal who require a different strategy all together), I think it's a much better chance. I think emotion blasts would be the most effective on Chana, as she was tortured most recently besides Taln, but I don't think it would make a major difference.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I think they would just move.

As for having a fixed location, not the faintest idea.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

After thinking on it for few minutes, while we don't know for certain, I think we can be pretty sure they don't get reborn in the same spot every time.

If they got reborn on Braize in the same spot, Fused would simply put sentries/traps there and capture them immediately. But we know that Heralds spend some time hiding and evading Fused after being killed.

So on Braize the spot where they get there likely shifts

If on Roshar they got reborn in some fixed spot, I think either humans or Fused would again mark this.

So on Braize I think we can be certain it is not a fixed location, on Roshar I would also lean towards it not being the same.

thinking about it, it could be that they have a loosely fixed location, but one that changed based on a variety of variables (rotation and revolution of both Roshar and Braize, among others), but that seems unlikely to me. I feel confident there's some sort of system, but not one that is easy (or even possible) to deduce without Shard-level intelligence.

therunner · January 20

9 hours ago, Immortal Platypus said:

I think certain people probably would be literally paralyzed, if you've ever heard someone with really bad depression that manifests as apathy, it sounds like it can feel literally paralyzing. I don't have depression, but I do experience intense apathy from time to time, and the lack of desire to do anything is insane and hard to describe. Now, if I was in a life/death situation, it would likely be different, but I'm just using this as an example of real "paralysis" that is similar to an emotion blast.

As someone with rather severe depression, it really doesn't work like that.

Even in very deep moments, if someone threatened something like care about, it would rouse you to action. Emotional Allomancy is not mind control, nor physical control over a body (Hemalurgic constructs excepted). It can also be overcome by strong native emotions.

Since the Heralds in question clearly must care about destroying Scadrial to exclusion of any rational thought, I would expect that goal being threatened (i.e. them being threatened) would certainly rouse them to action.

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as for the levels of investiture, you're right. I will note that Brandon doesn't explicitly say that it's the Investiture that's causing it rather than an inherent property of Breaths specifically, but that's being nitpicky, and his meaning seems clear to me. The question then is if the investiture is enough to nullify the years of torture and the inherent strength of duralumin emotional Allomancy, and I'm not convinced it is. I think it could go either way.

Sure, it is open question.

But we have one factor that might make Heralds more susceptible to emotional allomancy (their torture) and another that certainly makes them more resistant (their Investiture).

As to how much blunting it will be, Returned have equivalent of 2000 Breaths, one human soul is ~2 (per Sunlit Man).
Purely on scaling, that would suggest that Returned should be about 1000x more difficult to influence with emotional Allomancy. Ditto then for Heralds.

How much stronger is Duralumin fueled emotion blast? We don't know, though Pewter + Duralumin is not 1000x stronger than Pewter alone, so it is likely below that.

From that reasoning, even Duralumin fueled emotion blast might be a bit weaker when applied on Herald than regular emotional allomancy is on regular person.

But then again, some effect of being Invested are more 'gated', so it is also possible that will be just some set barrier once you get across some threshold (again, like seen in Sunlit Man).

Immortal Platypus · January 20

12 hours ago, therunner said:

As someone with rather severe depression, it really doesn't work like that.

Even in very deep moments, if someone threatened something like care about, it would rouse you to action. Emotional Allomancy is not mind control, nor physical control over a body (Hemalurgic constructs excepted). It can also be overcome by strong native emotions.

Since the Heralds in question clearly must care about destroying Scadrial to exclusion of any rational thought, I would expect that goal being threatened (i.e. them being threatened) would certainly rouse them to action.

i'll take your word for it, as I don't have severe depression, I was just saying what I've heard.

And I did say I expected that they would act, at least somewhat, but I still do expect some sort stunning effects. It probably won't be as strong as I originally anticipated.

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Sure, it is open question.

But we have one factor that might make Heralds more susceptible to emotional allomancy (their torture) and another that certainly makes them more resistant (their Investiture).

As to how much blunting it will be, Returned have equivalent of 2000 Breaths, one human soul is ~2 (per Sunlit Man).
Purely on scaling, that would suggest that Returned should be about 1000x more difficult to influence with emotional Allomancy. Ditto then for Heralds.

How much stronger is Duralumin fueled emotion blast? We don't know, though Pewter + Duralumin is not 1000x stronger than Pewter alone, so it is likely below that.

From that reasoning, even Duralumin fueled emotion blast might be a bit weaker when applied on Herald than regular emotional allomancy is on regular person.

But then again, some effect of being Invested are more 'gated', so it is also possible that will be just some set barrier once you get across some threshold (again, like seen in Sunlit Man).

I don't think that scaling is accurate, I would expect diminishing returns, or at least a "plateau" system, where you need to get to a certain level before things manifest, similarly to Heightenings.

But you're probably right, it will be weaker than I anticipated.

Frustration · January 20

So, here's a question.

Given that the silvery inside portion of Elsegates is speed of light distances

Spoiler

VeryNiceName16

In Emberdark, we’re told that the only way to go to a planet without a perpendicularity is to use an FTL ship. And in Sunlit, Sigzil says that methods to get to planets without perpendicularities are very recent. Why can’t you just use Transportation to go from the Cognitive to the Physical?

Brandon Sanderson

You'll find out more about that when we get there. When we get to the back five [Stormlight 6-10] and we talk about it.

There's a couple things going on there. Obviously, Hoid does it, so it is possible to do. In these cases, most people, they're mostly talking about large scale- like if a person wants to go there, they can. And we will get to why Transportation isn't an option. That doesn't mean an individual couldn't figure out how to get onto-

So, just understand that it is possible. They're both kind of wrong; but if you're talking in general terms, there are very, very rare exceptions without FTL. And one of those exceptions is to just bring a whole metric strawberry-ton of Investiture with you, and that will puncture into the Physical Realm if you do it right. It's harder to go from Cognitive to Physical; if you have that in Physical, it happens automatically. Much harder to do. But it happens very naturally in Physical. So if you can get a bunch of Investiture together in the Physical Realm, it will make a hole that you can get through. So, there's ways.

Adam Horne

Have you guys mapped out light-year distances for the system?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Isaac has, but I don't know if we're gonna release that.

This is a more nuanced question than I've answered before on this. But Transportation, most forms of teleportation in the cosmere, work at speed of light. Transportation works at speed of light. So Elsecalling, Elsegates, work at speed of light. Spanreeds work at speed of light. Most of your uses are speed of light. There are a few ways around speed of light but...

YouTube Spoiler Stream 7 (Dec. 19, 2025)

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, as I thought that this was closer to spacebending, but regardless.

Lets say something is inside the Elsegate when it closes: What happens?

My new plan: if we cannot overwhelm the Herald with AonDor, we will get an enlightened Inkspren, and infiltrate the Herald's forces. We then open an Elsegate to Scadrial, wait for them to enter, and then close it.

therunner · January 21

10 hours ago, Immortal Platypus said:

i'll take your word for it, as I don't have severe depression, I was just saying what I've heard.

And I did say I expected that they would act, at least somewhat, but I still do expect some sort stunning effects. It probably won't be as strong as I originally anticipated.

Honestly it is only my experience, and I cannot for everyone with such an illness.

I would expect there to be some effect, but how larger and how difficult to overcome is open question.

I do think it would be certainly less of an effect than on regular person (due to Investiture), and it would be easier for them to overcome it as well.

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I don't think that scaling is accurate, I would expect diminishing returns, or at least a "plateau" system, where you need to get to a certain level before things manifest, similarly to Heightenings.

I am not sure. For some things there seems to be plateou effect, but for Investiture resists Investiture, it seems to just scale with amount of Investiture.

I.e. metalminds get progressively more difficult to Push/Pull the more Invested they are, up until they look like piece of Aluminum (Bands of Mourning).
Shardplates are far beyond that level, and Shardblades a bit above that as well. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/217/#e7299 )
Living blades are above dead blades (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41/#e7222 )
And Nightblood is far beyond them all. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/217/#e7299 )

E.g.

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Brandon Sanderson

The thing-- An Invested object is more difficult with any of the magics. So, for instance, even a Feruchemical metalmind is going to be harder. Depends on how much it is Invested, and things like that. But, y'know, it can range from you barely notice it or don't even notice it to "Wow, that's hard to Push on". Same for a Hemalurgical spike, depending on how much Investiture is left over, how long has it been outside of a body, and things like that. Same thing Pushing on something inside a person's body, their Investiture is going to interfere with it.

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Questioner

So I have heard that it is harder to Push a Shardblade with Allomancy than it is a normal sword.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Is that true of both living and dead Shardblades?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Equally?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, no.

Questioner

Okay, so it's even more difficult to Push one alive.

Brandon Sanderson

The thing-- An Invested object is more difficult with any of the magics. So, for instance, even a Feruchemical metalmind is going to be harder. Depends on how much it is Invested, and things like that. But, y'know, it can range from you barely notice it or don't even notice it to "Wow, that's hard to Push on". Same for a Hemalurgical spike, depending on how much Investiture is left over, how long has it been outside of a body, and things like that. Same thing Pushing on something inside a person's body, their Investiture is going to interfere with it.

Same thing, when you read White Sand, why a person slapping their hand through someone's stream of sand can throw off the entire creation of the sand mastery. It's just-- There's interference patterns, and things like that.

Questioner

And is that true of a Drab as well? Does the body affect--

Brandon Sanderson

The Drab is going to have less.

Questioner

So they just have less Investiture, but they still have some natural Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

They do still have some. They've lost their Breath but that isn't the entirety of the Investiture inside of them.

Almost all of the times we see Vin--in fact I think every time--we see Vin, or someone in the Mistborn books, Pushing or Pulling on an Invested metal they are either drawing on the mist or they're Elend or the Lord Ruler who have the enhanced power, or something like that. Or it's a duralumin Push, or its one of the Inquisitors who's had a spike-- y'know, and things like that, that've-- And so it's not something that you see done very often in the Mistborn books.

Rubix

I can actually confirm that's correct.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh you guys looked it up?

Rubix

I checked.

Brandon Sanderson

I mean it can be done. And depending on Investiture it can be not even that hard to do but--
Firefight release party (Jan. 5, 2015)

So for resisting Invested Arts, it seems to be mostly scaling. Whether linear or not, we don't know.

10 hours ago, Frustration said:

My new plan: if we cannot overwhelm the Herald with AonDor, we will get an enlightened Inkspren, and infiltrate the Herald's forces. We then open an Elsegate to Scadrial, wait for them to enter, and then close it.

Since Heralds are familiar with Elsegates (having used them before) wouldn't they know that Elsegate to Scadrial would take years to traverse?

And as such, travelling in CR would be the easier option to get to Scadrial? So one, they wouldn't have reason to enter it, and two, they would know it might be a risk?

Also, if the Elsegates are truly always lightspeed limited, that means Ashyn/Roshar Elsegate must have taken few minutes to traverse, which I am not sure is in line with what is shown in WAT. Alternatively, Ashyn and Roshar are much closer together.

Edited January 21 by therunner

Frustration · January 21

7 hours ago, therunner said:

Since Heralds are familiar with Elsegates (having used them before) wouldn't they know that Elsegate to Scadrial would take years to traverse?

And as such, travelling in CR would be the easier option to get to Scadrial? So one, they wouldn't have reason to enter it, and two, they would know it might be a risk?

Also, if the Elsegates are truly always lightspeed limited, that means Ashyn/Roshar Elsegate must have taken few minutes to traverse, which I am not sure is in line with what is shown in WAT. Alternatively, Ashyn and Roshar are much closer together.

Huh, this is a good point.

Okay modified new plan.

Assuming we're okay with dying as well, or we can find some way to protect ourselves while doing it(possibly with AonDor) we can instead open up an elsegate to outer space. That should get all except Nale and Kaladin to die immediately. Though That still doesn't perma kill them so they come back, dang it.

Okay, scratch that idea.

Immortal Platypus · January 21

8 hours ago, therunner said:

Honestly it is only my experience, and I cannot for everyone with such an illness.

I would expect there to be some effect, but how larger and how difficult to overcome is open question.

I do think it would be certainly less of an effect than on regular person (due to Investiture), and it would be easier for them to overcome it as well.

I'm not certain on if I think it would be more or less of an effect than a regular person, I think it likely depends on the Herald and how much Stormlight they're carrying. I personally think that the trauma overcomes their enhanced resistance (from being heralds) but with extra investiture, it would become weaker and weaker.

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I am not sure. For some things there seems to be plateou effect, but for Investiture resists Investiture, it seems to just scale with amount of Investiture.

I.e. metalminds get progressively more difficult to Push/Pull the more Invested they are, up until they look like piece of Aluminum (Bands of Mourning).
Shardplates are far beyond that level, and Shardblades a bit above that as well. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/217/#e7299 )
Living blades are above dead blades (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41/#e7222 )
And Nightblood is far beyond them all. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/217/#e7299 )

E.g.

So for resisting Invested Arts, it seems to be mostly scaling. Whether linear or not, we don't know.

it might be scaling, but even so, I would expect diminishing returns, similar to how when you use feruchemy, 2 hours of double strength is not 1 hour of quadruple strength, it's about 45 minutes. some is lost in the compounding effect (kind of like diminishing returns). you're probably right about the plateau effect not applying here, but I could still see a world where it does.

therunner · January 21

1 hour ago, Immortal Platypus said:

I'm not certain on if I think it would be more or less of an effect than a regular person, I think it likely depends on the Herald and how much Stormlight they're carrying. I personally think that the trauma overcomes their enhanced resistance (from being heralds) but with extra investiture, it would become weaker and weaker.

Yeah, fair conclusion. It is likely that different Heralds will react differently.

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it might be scaling, but even so, I would expect diminishing returns, similar to how when you use feruchemy, 2 hours of double strength is not 1 hour of quadruple strength, it's about 45 minutes. some is lost in the compounding effect (kind of like diminishing returns). you're probably right about the plateau effect not applying here, but I could still see a world where it does.

Based on what we (don't) know, this is as likely as it just scaling.

Perhaps Ghostbloods could first test how rioting/soothing interacts with heavily Invested people, and how this scales? If they find it out it doesn't seem to plateou that would invalidate this strategy, but if it does (or even doesn't get blocked that much) it would be viable tactic to try. That is something that could likely be done in 6 months.

They could ask their resident cognitive shadow (Kelsier) for help, if he would be willing. That would be at least one Invested data point.

Or they could try to approach 17th Shard, under the guise of doing scientific research, to get them to provide some willing subjects (e.g. Elantrian members of 17th Shard)?

Immortal Platypus · January 21

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Perhaps Ghostbloods could first test how rioting/soothing interacts with heavily Invested people, and how this scales? If they find it out it doesn't seem to plateou that would invalidate this strategy, but if it does (or even doesn't get blocked that much) it would be viable tactic to try. That is something that could likely be done in 6 months.

They could ask their resident cognitive shadow (Kelsier) for help, if he would be willing. That would be at least one Invested data point.

Or they could try to approach 17th Shard, under the guise of doing scientific research, to get them to provide some willing subjects (e.g. Elantrian members of 17th Shard)?

yeah, they have time to experiment with it. I'm sure they could get a variety of data points, especially if they try on people actively burning metals and/or work with 17S or even the Ire. Kelsier would probably be good to see how effective Soothing/Rioting is on cognitive shadows.

IronMistborn · January 24

So I’ll admit that I’m not super well versed in the Cosmere (still have WB, Mistborn era 2, and the SPs to go), so I don’t know what I could do. (Interesting topic and replies though!)

But I do know this: If my target turns out to be Taln, I’m just gonna do a backflip into the Honor Chasm, because that is the last fight in the entire Cosmere I’m going to pick lmao.

Frustration · February 2

Okay, I've had an idea.

The answer comes to us in the form of the Unmade, I give to you Yelig-nar.

With access to all ten surges Yelig-nar holds the potential to counter any of the Heralds by exploiting the powers they don't have. In addition we want Elantrian Shai, an enlightened Elsecaller, and a lot of aluminum guns.

Our plan is for Yelig-nar and our gunners to engage the Herald while our Elsecaller uses Elsegates to move people around as fast as they possibly can to keep the Herald disoriented and everyone else alive.

While this is going on Shai is preparing our endgame, with powerful Aon attacks, or utility boosts depending on what would be the most useful.

Edited February 5 by Frustration

First of the Tide · February 3

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Okay, I've had an idea.

The answer comes to us in the form of the Unmade, I give to you Yelig-nar.

With access to all ten surges Yelig-nar holds the potential to counter any of the Heralds by exploiting the powers they don't have. In addition we want Elantrian Shai, an enlightened Elsecaller, and a lot of aluminum guns.

Our plan is for Yeling-nar and our gunners to engage the Herald while our Elsecaller uses Elsegates to move people around as fast as they possibly can to keep the Herald disoriented and everyone else alive.

While this is going on Shai is preparing our endgame, with powerful Aon attacks, or utility boosts depending on what would be the most useful.

Okay buuuuut...

Yelignar must be bonded to a person
the heralds are so good b/c they're so experienced with their surges
Yelignar consumes your soul
You can't get experienced with surgebinding if you're dead via soul-eatedness
heralds have had thousands of experiences with Yelig-nar, and the person bonded to Yelignar has no experience fighting Heralds, probably (the only one that comes to mind is Lift)

I think a herald could still pretty easily destroy an unexperienced surgebinder, even if the unexperienced one has access to all the surges. I mean, Kal held out pretty long against Amaram, while Amaram had two shard blades and shardplate, and kal was still nowhere near the level of the heralds. Not even close. (except chana, who lost to an eleven year old with no experience)

also, this from the coppermind, unless its already been addressed:The Shaod only takes people from Arelon or Teod, and occasionally Duladel.

Also, else gates give vibes of this-takes forever-to-do-and-is-incredibly-difficult and not AAAAH-scary-monster-run-away-right-this-instant-super-fast, but I have nothing to back that up

Frustration · February 3

9 minutes ago, First of the Tide said:

Okay buuuuut...

Yelignar must be bonded to a person

Yes, fortunately manpower is not something we lack.

9 minutes ago, First of the Tide said:

the heralds are so good b/c they're so experienced with their surges

heralds have had thousands of experiences with Yelig-nar, and the person bonded to Yelignar has no experience fighting Heralds, probably (the only one that comes to mind is Lift)

Within the prelude Kalak says that he got Killed by Thunderclasts frequently, yet the ones we see are not particularly skilled.

11 minutes ago, First of the Tide said:

Yelignar consumes your soul

You can't get experienced with surgebinding if you're dead via soul-eatedness

Yes, but that takes a decent amount of time. Indeed Kaladin's fight with Amaram and Nohadon losing a massive portion of his lords to Yelig-nar despite having multiple surgebinders is an indication that the Host can survive for an extended period of time to master the surges.

13 minutes ago, First of the Tide said:

I think a herald could still pretty easily destroy an unexperienced surgebinder, even if the unexperienced one has access to all the surges. I mean, Kal held out pretty long against Amaram, while Amaram had two shard blades and shardplate, and kal was still nowhere near the level of the heralds. Not even close. (except chana, who lost to an eleven year old with no experience)

Amaram also did next to nothing with what he had, only using the surges once each. Kaladin had more stormlight than ever would be necessary, and Kaladin still would have lost if not for Rock.

15 minutes ago, First of the Tide said:

also, this from the coppermind, unless its already been addressed:The Shaod only takes people from Arelon or Teod, and occasionally Duladel.

You haven't read TLM have you?

15 minutes ago, First of the Tide said:

Also, else gates give vibes of this-takes forever-to-do-and-is-incredibly-difficult and not AAAAH-scary-monster-run-away-right-this-instant-super-fast, but I have nothing to back that up

I mean Mraize and Iyatil used it to get away from Shallan and the Windrunners just fine.

First of the Tide · February 3

All good points.

Wait,what happened in TLM? I read it, but only once, and very far from when I read elantris (and I'm generally a really ignorant guy on the first readthrough)

I know hoid got Elantrified in TES tho, so my point is stupid anyway.

Frustration · February 3

17 minutes ago, First of the Tide said:

All good points.

Wait,what happened in TLM? I read it, but only once, and very far from when I read elantris (and I'm generally a really ignorant guy on the first readthrough)

I know hoid got Elantrified in TES tho, so my point is stupid anyway.

Shai used a Soulstamp to turn herself into an Elantrian

First of the Tide · February 3

How TF did I forget moonlight was Shai aaaghhh

Onironte · February 4

On 1/16/2026 at 5:41 PM, Trusk'our said:

You're a seasoned member of the Ghostbloods, working to protect Scadrial from any and all threats. None of which is greater than that of off worlders.

You were rudely awakened to an to the chirping sound of your Awakened Bronzemind hooked to your wrist, informing you of an incoming communication as if Invests you into a fully alert state.

After rushing to your communications room, you're given the news- and a momentous task that Lord Kelsier himself would be wary to undertake.

The Rosharan chapter has discovered that one of Honor's old Heralds has gone mad, and is planning on attacking Scadrial with a strike force soon.

You have been assigned to travel to Roshar and concoct a plan to kill them- permanently. You have access to all that the Ghostbloods' tools and resources. They are not infinite, nor necessarily easy to obtain, but you have permission to obtain whatever tools you deem necessary as long as it is within your colleagues' power to do so within the next six months.

You do not know yet which Herald it is, so you've been advised to either create a plan capable of elimminating any of them, or to conjure an individualized plan for each.

As you step into Harmony's Perpendicularity to head off to the planet of Storms, the Lord of Scars himself wishes you luck via you Seon associate.

So, after 4 pages of pure-gold ideas, the conclusion is basically that the Heralds are quite overpowered.

Because of the Oathpact all of the heralds share some traits and abilities. They are at least very competent in probably every style of fighting (I'll forgive Chana; I think the fact that she lost was due to Shallan being her daughter, not Chana being incompetent). We have been shown that their heraldic abilities are simply insane. Supersonic speed, being strong enough to shatter a Shardplate as if it were nothing...

I'll assume that they are in possession of their corresponding Honorblade, and that means that each one has access to two Surges. Surges that they have used for centuries. They also get other abilities from their Honorblades, some of which (extra strength and speed) are but a trick compared to their heraldic abilities, but they also get the ability to heal effectively.

To be honest, I think those are quite nothing compared to their pre-Oathpact abilities. We see Ishar holding big Else-gates for an extended period of time. We see Heralds shining bright, being able to use Surges in ways that destroyed Ashyn. We know that they are still able to do some of those things (like using the Vedel method to make Kal immortal), and an insane Herald will have no qualms exploiting everything they have. I see no reason why this insane random Herald should just not use Division to reduce Scadrial to ashes. Yes, I am aware that Dawnshards were involved in the catastrophe on Ashyn, but I think it's best to prepare for the worst scenario.

So... what can we do? I don't know why, but the idea of using emotional allomancy on them feels awkward. It feels to me that the Oathpact would give them some sort of protection from those sorts of attacks. But, since our beloved Scadrial is at stake, we can give it a try.

I don't feel like finding a different approach for every Herald, so I'll try some general strategies.

I have two main ideas I would like to give a try:

To awaken an anti-stormlight spren created to obliterate the mad Herald.
Try and get some help from Shallan.

FIRST STRATEGY:

I was thinking that, in this particular task, Saz wouldn't be totally useless. The task seems to align quite well with Harmony, Ruin and Preservation: to bring ruin to a herald in order to prevent him from ruining us, therefore preserving everything as harmoniously as it was before. Less so for the ruined Herald, that is.

We Ghostbloods have quite a reserve of pure Investiture, and ways to get more. It does not seem nuts to think that you could Align it (Aspect it? Key it?) to be anti-stormlight. We can ask Saz for help, use the Pure Tones, even try Forgery on it (can I soulstamp pure Investiture?) or simply all of the above.

So, having fetched our anti-stormlight (still on Scadrial), we have to make it spren-ish, sentient. Let's call it PHANTOM (Patriotic Herald-phagus Autonomous Nightbloodish Tactical Overkiller Murderer).

We have seen around the cosmere (Sprens in SA, Taln himself, Elantris...) how perception molds Investiture.

If we are to create this PHANTOM, we will only have one chance. And still more than 5 months left. We first design this PHANTOM, its personality, values, ideals, plan, everything. We create a self-coherent, whole Identity for PHANTOM, making sure that it will be (and do) what we want it to do. It has to be simple, and yet whole. We need it to be as simple as possible (so it's easier to imagine it) and yet not so simple as to be dysfunctional (we want it to kill a Herald). Its personality would be basically an entity who understands the threat that the Herald poses and is willing to obliterate itself in order to stop the menace.

Once PHANTOM is clear in our minds, it's time to bring it alive. We get at least 50 fellow Ghostbloods in a room with our proto-PHANTOM. They know PHANTOM's Identity, who it is, they have been studding it for a month. For the rest of the time, we get them to meditate. To meditate on believing and tricking their senses to feel PHANTOM. We can use emotional allomancy to make them more faithful, to induce them into a state that facilitates the process of creating PHANTOM. We can use F-zinc to get them to think (pun intended) faster. If this is not enough, we might need to use marketing (and some of our connections within the Church of the Survivor) in order to get more mental power from our beloved Elendel.

Or... weird idea. We get a Kandra. We provide it a huge ton of... "material", so it creates a body whose only function is to believe that PHANTOM is real (and survive). The mental and belief power of hundreds of persons in just one Kandra. For some reason, I don't think this is possible, but trying hurts no one. We don't need it, but it would be quite the cherry on top.

If we can indeed apply a Soulstamp to anti-stormlight, it might be even easier. We would just have to use the Stamp and get PHANTOM to a Perpendicularity. We would create (code?) PHANTOM in such a way that it would be able to navigate Shadesmar, or maybe even fly using its own (plentiful) Investiture as a fuel. We might give PHANTOM some systems that protect it from accidentally exploding when in contact with a source of stormlight. And make it undetectable and other useful things.

And then... we just grab some popcorn. And think about the creepy parallelism between this and that time when the weirdos of gold and red tried to blow up a bomb without knowing the consequences.

Then we get the explosion... have we just broken Wayne's record?

Harmony is crying...

Seriously, what were we thinking? All that amount of anti-stormlight... applied to a Herald.
That has really strong connections with every other Herald.
And a big chunk of Honor...
Hmm...
Maybe we overreacted a bit...

Kelsier gets into the room, I tell him my concerns. Why are his hands red-blooded? Or is it a tattoo? He laughs, and says something about the greater good, and extinguishing some blue lights on Roshar. He tells me that I have been found worthy of bonding an Enlightened Inkspren.

All's well that ends well.

SECOND STRATEGY:

We have established that there is no way you can defeat a Herald in a fair battle.

But, what if you could summon a huge sphere of aluminum around the Herald? What if you could deform reality itself, like, for example, pushing the herald with wind from every direction? Or creating layers upon layers of horrible creatures from Braize... that actually can harm you?

With enough Investiture, Shallan can potentially deny every Surge. Division with Transformation, Gravitation can't fly if you are grabbing the Herald with a hand made of stone, I don't think there is any Surge that can be a problem. Connection gives me creeps. I just feel like Ishar would immediately steal every photon (that is not a thing, is it?) of stormlight. We would use Pure Investiture.

I know that Shallan quite hates us... I don't know why, really. But you know how those rusty Rosharans are, don't you?
I think we could ask her, you know, all the life-before-heralds, or whatever nonsense they believe these days...
And, if she refuses... Well, we can always place a nice bomb, or rather ten, the ones the Group taught us how to make, and then place them in different locations. Extra points if those places have innocents and shelled kittens.

The choice is hers: to kill a lunatic Herald, with our help and support and some candies for her kids, or the bombs go boom. It's important to make her understand that the bombs are connected via seons; if one is deactivated... you know. We break Wayne's record anyway.

She is not that great, really, we just need her to share her delusions with a lunatic.
Lunatic in the bad sense, you know, not like the Lord of Scars.
We will provide her with F-zinc, to be delusional faster, and all of that. And the jars of investiture... Am I missing something? Oh, yes, we might tell Shallan to Transformate spikes of air into spikes of silver, and aluminum, and some iron and tin, some copper too. And chromium and nicrosil and duralumin! That won't harm us, for sure. We obviously tell her about the Intent needed for proper spiking. So, the Herald either ends up shattered into a bunch of spikes, completely (threat neutralized) or partially, which is functionally the same. Or we might try the trapping-him-in-aluminum strategy... That would be more fun. Imagine all the things we might discover!

Can I steal the Heraldic abilities with Hemalurgy?
Can I use an Awakened copper metalmind to steal every memory of the herald?
And identity and all the other stuff (barring the connections that make the Herald powerful, that is)?
Can I then use that empty body as a Lifeless?
How many spikes do I need to apply to my mindless Herald to make it my Hemalurgic puppet?

What do you think?

Please, point out any and every mistake I have made.

Edited February 5 by Onironte
Deleted IoE spoilers

Frustration · February 4

2 hours ago, Onironte said:

What do you think?

Please, point out any and every mistake I have made.

Well, *Cracks knuckles* if you insist.

2 hours ago, Onironte said:

I'll assume that they are in possession of their corresponding Honorblade, and that means that each one has access to two Surges. Surges that they have used for centuries. They also get other abilities from their Honorblades, some of which (extra strength and speed) are but a trick compared to their heraldic abilities, but they also get the ability to heal effectively.

Their strength and speed do not come from their honorblades, which we can see from Taln who can move at supersonic speeds, and rip gemhearts out of Focused Ones with his bare hands without his blade.

2 hours ago, Onironte said:

To be honest, I think those are quite nothing compared to their pre-Oathpact abilities. We see Ishar holding big Else-gates for an extended period of time. We see Heralds shining bright, being able to use Surges in ways that destroyed Ashyn. We know that they are still able to do some of those things (like using the Vedel method to make Kal immortal), and an insane Herald will have no qualms exploiting everything they have. I see no reason why this insane random Herald should just not use Division to reduce Scadrial to ashes. Yes, I am aware that Dawnshards were involved in the catastrophe on Ashyn, but I think it's best to prepare for the worst scenario.

I see no reason to assume that the elsegate Ishar made was particularly interesting.

2 hours ago, Onironte said:

FIRST STRATEGY:

I was thinking that, in this particular task, Saz wouldn't be totally useless. The task seems to align quite well with Harmony, Ruin and Preservation: to bring ruin to a herald in order to prevent him from ruining us, therefore preserving everything as harmoniously as it was before. Less so for the ruined Herald, that is.

The same would apply to the Set, yet Harmony doesn't seem to be able to do much their either.

2 hours ago, Onironte said:

We Ghostbloods have quite a reserve of pure Investiture, and ways to get more. It does not seem nuts to think that you could Align it (Aspect it? Key it?) to be anti-stormlight. We can ask Saz for help, use the Pure Tones, even try Forgery on it (can I soulstamp pure Investiture?) or simply all of the above.

Stormlight is specifically aligned to Honor, another shard's investiture would not suffice. We can see this with the enlightened spren in WaT, despite being hit with anti-stormlight daggers, the two spren's Odium side is just fine.

A soulstamped piece of metal is going to be on the lower, easier side. Not a lot of Investiture going on in a soulstamp.

Salt Lake City signing (March 29, 2014)

2 hours ago, Onironte said:

We have seen around the cosmere (Isles of the Emberdark, Sprens in SA, Taln himself, Elantris...) how perception molds Investiture.

If we are to create this PHANTOM, we will only have one chance. And still more than 5 months left. We first design this PHANTOM, its personality, values, ideals, plan, everything. We create a self-coherent, whole Identity for PHANTOM, making sure that it will be (and do) what we want it to do. It has to be simple, and yet whole. We need it to be as simple as possible (so it's easier to imagine it) and yet not so simple as to be dysfunctional (we want it to kill a Herald). Its personality would be basically an entity who understands the threat that the Herald poses and is willing to obliterate itself in order to stop the menace.

Once PHANTOM is clear in our minds, it's time to bring it alive. We get at least 50 fellow Ghostbloods in a room with our proto-PHANTOM. They know PHANTOM's Identity, who it is, they have been studding it for a month. For the rest of the time, we get them to meditate. To meditate on believing and tricking their senses to feel PHANTOM. We can use emotional allomancy to make them more faithful, to induce them into a state that facilitates the process of creating PHANTOM. We can use F-zinc to get them to think (pun intended) faster. If this is not enough, we might need to use marketing (and some of our connections within the Church of the Survivor) in order to get more mental power from our beloved Elendel.

Or... weird idea. We get a Kandra. We provide it a huge ton of... "material", so it creates a body whose only function is to believe that PHANTOM is real (and survive). The mental and belief power of hundreds of persons in just one Kandra. For some reason, I don't think this is possible, but trying hurts no one. We don't need it, but it would be quite the cherry on top.

1. Just a heads up this isn't the Emberdark spoiler forum.

2. While yes perception can mold investiture, it takes far too long to be used practically.

Spoiler

Questioner

When people start thinking about distances in the Cognitive Realm, how long does it take for that to actually be reflected in the subastral? Given the fact that sufficiently many people presumably with a sufficiently enough Investiture behind them could increase distances in the Cognitive Realm, is it already or will it become standard tactics to strand opposing fleets in the subastral by just having a lot of people think really hard about them?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question. It takes longer than that. I don’t think it can be used strategically. Definitely can’t be used tactically. Strategically, it would take years, maybe decades, for it to have an influence. Perhaps there are certain strategic values to this. But organizing all the people and things like that… let’s just say that it’s not a thing that is within the realm of practical application.

Dragonsteel Nexus 2025 (Dec. 5, 2025)

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine (paraphrased)

If Nightblood were in the cognitive realm and was used to stab a bead that was the cognitive representation of a castle, would the castle be destroyed in the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

If you could get Nightblood into the Cognitive Realm, then yes.

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine (paraphrased)

What would happen to people who were in the castle at the time?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They wouldn't be affected (other than possibly plummeting to their death).

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine (paraphrased)

How about a carpet that had been in the castle for 50 years?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, 50 years most likely wouldn't be enough time.

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine (paraphrased)

Is this like the "Ship of Theseus?"

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes

Oathbringer Portland signing (Nov. 16, 2017)

2 hours ago, Onironte said:

SECOND STRATEGY:

We have established that there is no way you can defeat a Herald in a fair battle.

But, what if you could summon a huge sphere of aluminum around the Herald? What if you could deform reality itself, like, for example, pushing the herald with wind from every direction? Or creating layers upon layers of horrible creatures from Braize... that actually can harm you?

With enough Investiture, Shallan can potentially deny every Surge. Division with Transformation, Gravitation can't fly if you are grabbing the Herald with a hand made of stone, I don't think there is any Surge that can be a problem. Connection gives me creeps. I just feel like Ishar would immediately steal every photon (that is not a thing, is it?) of stormlight. We would use Pure Investiture.

Well Stormlight is a gas not a wavelength, but it also is pure investiture.

And I think that between the powers of Roshar and their own surges that there isn't a single Herald who couldn't escape or outright kill Shallan. Even before becoming a Herald Kaladin would have killed Shallan easily.

This is certainly among the more creative ideas out there, and honestly if you could get a Herald to the CR and then soulcast a sufficiently thick border of aluminum around them might be enough.

Edited February 4 by Frustration

Onironte · February 5

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

I see no reason to assume that the elsegate Ishar made was particularly interesting.

Agreed, I just wanted to point out that, with Honor dead, there is no way of knowing what sort of pre-Oathpact use of the Surges can the Heralds drawn upon now.
We know that, with the abilities they had around 10000 years ago, they helped to practically destroy a planet, and the containment measures that Honor once imposed by are probably no longer a thing after the Sunmaker's Gambit at the end of WaT.
I just wanted to point out that there is no way of knowing whether Heralds have other Surges-related powers we are not accounting for.

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

Their strength and speed do not come from their honorblades, which we can see from Taln who can move at supersonic speeds, and rip gemhearts out of Focused Ones with his bare hands without his blade.

That's what I'm referring to by heraldic abilities:

16 hours ago, Onironte said:

We have been shown that their heraldic abilities are simply insane. Supersonic speed, being strong enough to shatter a Shardplate as if it were nothing...

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

The same would apply to the Set, yet Harmony doesn't seem to be able to do much their either.

That's fair. No help from Harmony, then.

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

And I think that between the powers of Roshar and their own surges that there isn't a single Herald who couldn't escape or outright kill Shallan. Even before becoming a Herald Kaladin would have killed Shallan easily.

I happen to disagree.

Taln at WaT is impressive. Supersonic speed, superhuman strength... but I do not believe that is something you can expect in to be at the same level in every Herald.

Firstly, we know that Taln is the more capable fighter among the Heralds. Even before of those 4500 years at Braize. For those 4500 years he held by "sheer determination". In audition, his Identity was probably affected by 4500 years of worshipers, what probably made him even more capable. The thing about Taln catching darts on the flight and being able to move at supersonic speed is -in my opinion- linked more to his instincts (based on his Identity) that in actually conscious thinking. I don't think even Taln is able of "supersonic speed of thinking". Otherwise I think he shouldn't have died.

And all this supersonic speed wouldn't help Taln against something that his has never seen before, like being attacked by a flock of rainbow ducks with spikes as peaks. His Identity is not superposed to know how to do that. Killing Fused, that he had done for thousands of years. That he can do. He can probably kill anyone on normal combat.

But his instincts, the ones that allows him to be supersonic, simply wouldn't work against something that make no sense, like fighting against a pink cloud that grows fists or whatever nonsense Shallan can come up with.

And, against the Surges, if she can think fast enough (something we can manage with un-keyed F-Zinc) I think she can counter every Surge. Some surges, like Adhesion, only works if the Herald can touch Shallan. She can protect herself with her Shardplate or even Soulcasting herself an aluminum plate.

14 hours ago, Frustration said:

This is certainly among the more creative ideas out there, and honestly if you could get a Herald to the CR and then soulcast a sufficiently thick border of aluminum around them might be enough.

Agreed. The problem then would be that, if the Herald has no storminglight would suffocate, unless you make the aluminum box with holes to breath. And if the Herald happens to have access to the Surges of Division (spreading the aluminum atoms) Tension (liquefying the cage) Transformation (closing the holes and killing itself) or some other that allows the Herald to kill or free itself, we would have problems.

Thats why I think that the Hemalurgic approach is the best one. If we can spike the Herald with sufficient precision and keep it alive, using Progression, we have essentially won.

We get Shallan to spike the Herald on the right spots using substantiated illusions (which have practically no limitation of speed, they are not that substantial) we rend it useless, steeling its strength with Iron, its senses with Tin, emotional fortitude with Zinc, Cooper for intelligence, while having an Edgerunner or Truthwatcher, also with F-Zinc, to make sure that the Herald says alive.

14 hours ago, Frustration said:

1. Just a heads up this isn't the Emberdark spoiler forum.

Sorry, I'll change it.

14 hours ago, Frustration said:

2. While yes perception can mold investiture, it takes far too long to be used practically.

Ouch... it would have been nice.

14 hours ago, Frustration said:

And no you could not soulstamp pure investiture, just general investiture resists investiture rules.

Definitively no PHANTOM. Auch.
Thanks for the answer and wobs, @Frustration!

Nitpicking · February 5

On 2/2/2026 at 5:14 PM, Frustration said:

Our plan is for Yeling-nar and our gunners to engage the Herald while our Elsecaller uses Elsegates to move people around as fast as they possibly can to keep the Herald disoriented and everyone else alive.

I'm aware that this is very silly, but I like the idea of the dread Yelling Nar, who grants the unique Surge of Focused Sound.

Frustration · February 5

2 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

I'm aware that this is very silly, but I like the idea of the dread Yelling Nar, who grants the unique Surge of Focused Sound.

That's something Illumination could do

Qianweilian · February 5

I mean, you can straight up shoot lasers with Illumination.

Quote

Questioner

Lightweavers, you're saying that they're gonna be able to do lasers and things in space era. Could a Lightweaver conceivably make a kugelblitz? It's when compressing enough light into one space that it makes a black hole.

Brandon Sanderson

I'm gonna say that that's beyond the power level of your average Lightweaver. But who knows? Good question. I've never heard that term before, that's kind of cool. That'd take a lot of Light.

Questioner

Isn't Hoid a Lightweaver now?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid is a Lightweaver now, yes. But Hoid does like playing with fire. He should not be a Lightweaver. Hoid is too close to various things that happened with Dawnshards, he is playing with fire.
Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

To Kill a Herald

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