Getting Shredded On Sel

[TacoBellChoutaMeal]

Hey there. Recently, I re-listened to a portion of Arcanum, and the bit about Sel's gravity being 1.2x Cosmere standard really stuck out to me. 

Let me preface this by saying I am not a scientist (training to become a welder) and that there are likely a lot of smarter people on the forum than I am. But, hypothetically, if any given person knew a guy who knew a guy who could get them past The Dor and onto Sel, how jacked could that person get if they chose not to Connect to the land? I imagine Connection lets you instantly adjust to the gravity of any given place, but by choosing not to connect to it, you'd still feel the effects of that extra helping of gravity. Would exercise even be possible? Even push-ups? I don't really know how heavy 1.2x earth's gravity would be. I imagine it's either way more than I think it would be or only slightly more. But is a vacation to Sel the fastest way to a 3pl8 bench without a pewtermind, or is real life not like Dragonball? Could anyone explain this to me, if you get bored?

Also, I wondered if bringing an ironmind would let you store an insane amount of weight on Sel, but then I remembered that iron stores mass, and that your mass is the same wherever you go. If i'm mistaken on this, please inform me. This has been in the back of my mind for far too long. Ialai Sadeas didn't kill herself. 

[Treamayne]

10 hours ago, TacoBellChoutaMeal said:

Mistborn and Stormlight Spoilers

Spoiler

Also, I wondered if bringing an ironmind would let you store an insane amount of weight on Sel, but then I remembered that iron stores mass, and that your mass is the same wherever you go. If i'm mistaken on this, please inform me. This has been in the back of my mind for far too long. Ialai Sadeas didn't kill herself. 

 

Please make sure you are spoiler tagging your information - this is the Elantris Forum (not Cosmere Discussion) so anything not from Elantris or The Emporer's Soul needs to be in Spoiler Tags (or report the post and ask a Mod to please move it)

 

10 hours ago, TacoBellChoutaMeal said:

But, hypothetically, if any given person knew a guy who knew a guy who could get them past The Dor and onto Sel, how jacked could that person get if they chose not to Connect to the land? I imagine Connection lets you instantly adjust to the gravity of any given place, but by choosing not to connect to it, you'd still feel the effects of that extra helping of gravity. Would exercise even be possible? Even push-ups? I don't really know how heavy 1.2x earth's gravity would be. I imagine it's either way more than I think it would be or only slightly more. But is a vacation to Sel the fastest way to a 3pl8 bench without a pewtermind, or is real life not like Dragonball? Could anyone explain this to me, if you get bored?

@DrPhysics can possibly weigh in if they have time, but my understanding is W=MG, so an object massing 10kg in 1 G would multiply by 9.80665m/s; in 1.2 G you would multiply by 11.76798 m/s for gravitational acceleration. You would perceive the object as being 12kg (as laymen think of "weight"). I don't think Connecting to a planet would change this, but a person would adapt to the local conditions given time (like exercising with a weighted vest). For an adult that "weighs" 150lbs in Cosmere Standard, they would feel as if they "weigh" 180lbs on Sel. 

Hope that helps

[TacoBellChoutaMeal]

55 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Please make sure you are spoiler tagging your information - this is the Elantris Forum (not Cosmere Discussion) so anything not from Elantris or The Emporer's Soul needs to be in Spoiler Tags (or report the post and ask a Mod to please move it)@DrPhysics

 

(Can you move it to cosmere discussion for me, brother? Please? With crem on top?)

[CoderDrag0n8 He/Him]

Just now, TacoBellChoutaMeal said:

 

(Can you move it to cosmere discussion for me, brother? Please? With crem on top?)

you'll have to report your first post. Only mods can move things, and as cool as he is, Treamayne is not a mod.

[Treamayne]

5 minutes ago, TacoBellChoutaMeal said:

 

(Can you move it to cosmere discussion for me, brother? Please? With crem on top?)

Use the three dot menu on the first post, click report and leave a message asking for the move. Please find that and more tips in the SHARDER FAQ.

4 minutes ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

as cool as he is

I've finally fooled somebody

Edited September 11, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG/Quote response

[TacoBellChoutaMeal]

2 minutes ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

you'll have to report your first post. Only mods can move things, and as cool as he is, Treamayne is not a mod.

Wow that was a quick reply. Are you Tremayne’s alt lmao?

[CoderDrag0n8 He/Him]

3 minutes ago, TacoBellChoutaMeal said:

Wow that was a quick reply. Are you Tremayne’s alt lmao?

no im just an SE player who follows a bunch of things.

4 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Use the three dot menu on the first post, click report and leave a message asking for the move. Please find that and more tips in the SHARDER FAQ.

I've finally fooled somebody

ur like the coolest person here

everyone i know on the shard reveres you as 'the person who knows all the things. ALL the things'

Edited September 11, 2025 by CoderDrag0n8

[#1 Taln Fan he/him]

10 hours ago, TacoBellChoutaMeal said:

 

(Can you move it to cosmere discussion for me, brother? Please? With crem on top?)

I've moved it for you, thanks for letting me know!

[DrPhysics he/him]

21 hours ago, Treamayne said:

@DrPhysics can possibly weigh in if they have time, but my understanding is W=MG, so an object massing 10kg in 1 G would multiply by 9.80665m/s; in 1.2 G you would multiply by 11.76798 m/s for gravitational acceleration. You would perceive the object as being 12kg (as laymen think of "weight"). I don't think Connecting to a planet would change this, but a person would adapt to the local conditions given time (like exercising with a weighted vest). For an adult that "weighs" 150lbs in Cosmere Standard, they would feel as if they "weigh" 180lbs on Sel. 

That is correct. Just take the weight and multiply it by 1.2.

 

That said, this only applies to lifting things. Something that rolls on good wheels would feel comparably hard to push on both planets.

[AltonicKeys he/him]

On 9/10/2025 at 7:27 AM, TacoBellChoutaMeal said:

I imagine Connection lets you instantly adjust to the gravity of any given place, but by choosing not to connect to it, you'd still feel the effects of that extra helping of gravity. Would exercise even be possible? Even push-ups? I don't really know how heavy 1.2x earth's gravity would be. I imagine it's either way more than I think it would be or only slightly more

I think sure, everything would feel a bit heavier and you'd have a harder time standing and stuff. But also, this can just be done with, like, heavier weights? Adjusting to Sel would take the same amount of effort as adjusting to wearing a backpack full of bricks everywhere you go. Sure you wouldn't get the full experience of everything being heavier, but the workout routine probably wouldn't be much different? It'd just be like someone beginning to work out start with a 50 pound dumbbell instead of like a 20 pound one. So theoretically just working out with weighted clothes and making any equipment heavier should work just fine.

Besides, someone from a planet with 1.0 gravity going to one with 1.2 would probably have all their blood forced to their feet and pass out mid-workout because their heart isn't used to working so hard to supply the brain. I dunno.

[TacoBellChoutaMeal]

On 9/12/2025 at 2:55 PM, AltonicKeys said:

I think sure, everything would feel a bit heavier and you'd have a harder time standing and stuff. But also, this can just be done with, like, heavier weights? Adjusting to Sel would take the same amount of effort as adjusting to wearing a backpack full of bricks everywhere you go. Sure you wouldn't get the full experience of everything being heavier, but the workout routine probably wouldn't be much different? It'd just be like someone beginning to work out start with a 50 pound dumbbell instead of like a 20 pound one. So theoretically just working out with weighted clothes and making any equipment heavier should work just fine.

Besides, someone from a planet with 1.0 gravity going to one with 1.2 would probably have all their blood forced to their feet and pass out mid-workout because their heart isn't used to working so hard to supply the brain. I dunno.

I think traveling to Sel just to work out would be more beneficial to the YouTube channel than just wearing a bunch of weights. You can picture the thumbnail right now. 
“I TRAVELED TO SEL (ALMOST DIED) JUST TO GET SHREDDED (ALMOST DIED)”

[Duxredux he/him]

It won't kill you, but it may take a while to acclimitize. The record for an astronaut in the space station was over a year and the list of ways that the shift back impacted them was quite extensive. Not only their muscles atrophied but their skeletal structure lost calcium as well. Going from 0 G to 1 G is a much bigger shift than 1 G to 1.2 G. For reference, the advice for backpackers hiking unto the mountains is to not use a pack more than 1/3 your body weight for day hikes, and only 1/4 for daily use.

Unless I'm mistaken, flexibility and stretching would need to be a much higher priority if trying to bulk up in 1.2 G. The increased gravitational load will compress the body vertically putting greater loads on the discs in the spine (people tend to be tallest in the morning and slowly shrink over the day). Since the ligaments would also be under a heavier load at the same time, they will thicken and adapt in this compressed state. Yes, the body will relax when horizontal and the spine has a chance to decompress, but ligaments don't have this same unloading. This is not something that would just reverse itself when going back to 1 G. It's not just muscles that adapt, it's the whole system, and the ligaments would not be as limber as before the 1.2 G move unless actively trained.

To reference the OP question about DBZ, I think someone on YouTube (so take this with a grain of salt) tried wearing weights all day every day to train with just extra weight like someone did on Naruto and it was really rough on his hips and knees. He ended up spending a lot of time just laying around because it hurt to move for the first week, though I think he had like 80 lbs on him by the end of not more. He did get stronger and faster than his baseline, but at a hideously low time and energy to improvement rate compared to his buddy that did a conventional workout plan as a contrast. Basically, yes, actually moving around at 1.2 G will make you stronger compared to 1 G people, but if you're hoping to go back and wow people with your new gains... you're probably better off using a conventional workout routine for the planet and environment you plan to stay long term. You'll be more tired overall trying to do this the lazy way.

Edited September 16, 2025 by Duxredux

[AltonicKeys he/him]

4 hours ago, Duxredux said:

To reference the OP question about DBZ, I think someone on YouTube (so take this with a grain of salt) tried wearing weights all day every day to train with just extra weight like someone did on Naruto and it was really rough on his hips and knees. He ended up spending a lot of time just laying around because it hurt to move for the first week, though I think he had like 80 lbs on him by the end of not more. He did get stronger and faster than his baseline, but at a hideously low time and energy to improvement rate compared to his buddy that did a conventional workout plan as a contrast. Basically, yes, actually moving around at 1.2 G will make you stronger compared to 1 G people, but if you're hoping to go back and wow people with your new gains... you're probably better off using a conventional workout routine for the planet and environment you plan to stay long term. You'll be more tired overall trying to do this the lazy way.

Yeah that's what I was thinking. It's just a higher skill curve to overcome, but in the end you'll just be back to doing normal incremental workouts.

And I completely forgot about the existence of space and astronauts. I thought 1G to 1.2G would be kinda bone crushing (because my sense of weight is way off), but there's over 600 people who went through five times that transition when coming back to earth. I guess it wouldn't be too huge of a difference then huh, if you're just increasing everything's weight by a fifth. But what do I know, I've never been to space.

Edited September 16, 2025 by AltonicKeys

[DoctaDajman]

1 minute ago, AltonicKeys said:

Yeah that's what I was thinking. It's just a higher skill curve to overcome, but in the end you'll just be back to doing normal incremental workouts.

And I completely forgot about the existence of space and astronauts. I thought 1G to 1.2G would be kinda bone crushing (because my sense of weight is way off), but there's over 600 people who went through twice that transition when coming back to earth. I guess it wouldn't be too huge of a difference if you're just increasing everything's weight by a fifth.

It is interesting you mention bone crushing. Besides obvious muscular strength the bone density and all of the connective tissue would become stronger too. This is a big time benefit for when you go elsewhere in the cosmere. Transporting an army to Sel to train and then bringing them to Roshar quickly would be insane. I believe Roshar is said to be 0.7 of earth's gravity. So a bit difference there for sure. 

Not to mention that Roshars atmosphere is supposedly 30% O2 as opposed to earth's standard 21%.  

So someone who is built up and lived on Sel for their life is going to get to Roshar and basically be a super soldier even without any powers at all.  Some serious John Carter of Mars stuff going on. 

[Nitpicking]

7 hours ago, Duxredux said:

... if you're hoping to go back and wow people with your new gains... you're probably better off using a conventional workout routine for the planet and environment you plan to stay long term. You'll be more tired overall trying to do this the lazy way.

I mean, this is the Cosmere. If you can get to Sel, why not just use that Investiture more directly to be strong, say by getting someone to hypnotize you into thinking you're incredibly muscular and fit, and then just holding lots of Investiture (which makes your body gradually change to match your self-image)?

I notice that Brandon has magic systems for lots of things--flying, telekinesis, healing, dimension gates, communications, transmutation--but not for "being strong" except for the Metallic Arts, to the best of my recollection. All three Metallic Arts do let you become stronger. Enough breaths can make you immortal and let you control everything around you with a thought, give you enhanced senses ... but not strength. Stormlight is said not to "greatly" increase strength.

[DoctaDajman]

6 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

I mean, this is the Cosmere. If you can get to Sel, why not just use that Investiture more directly to be strong, say by getting someone to hypnotize you into thinking you're incredibly muscular and fit, and then just holding lots of Investiture (which makes your body gradually change to match your self-image)?

I notice that Brandon has magic systems for lots of things--flying, telekinesis, healing, dimension gates, communications, transmutation--but not for "being strong" except for the Metallic Arts, to the best of my recollection. All three Metallic Arts do let you become stronger. Enough breaths can make you immortal and let you control everything around you with a thought, give you enhanced senses ... but not strength. Stormlight is said not to "greatly" increase strength.

Yeah. I think every system has strength capable powers but not as directly as the metallic arts. 

Stormlight strength comes from being able to push your muscles to 100% of their ability and beyond, instantly healing any tears you create.  Shardplate is from Roshar though and it arguably is the strongest single strength augmenting tool in the cosmere. Of course a pewter compounder who figures out how to store pewter strength would probably rise beyond that. 

Awakening could probably augment your strength to a degree. Really your awakened objects will be able to lift and move anything that that material could lift and move. There are some straps and ropes with thousands... tens of thousands of pounds worth of tensile strength.  A 9th heightening awakener could literally awaken some arms made from 1 inch steel cable and throw around 100,000+ lbs.

The real question behind awakening is how does the body brace for this?  Perhaps you make some doc ock or iron spider limbs and allow your body to be carried around by these crazy cables that will also brace you up as they lift what needs to be lifted.  

We know that awakeners were using ropes as siege weapons to sling boulders. That is old rope. How much more could 9th heightening get with steel cable?  

 

[DiePie]

While (perhaps) going to somewhere with heavier gravity wouldn't build muscle if you're already pushing yourself in the gym, it would help condition anyone who wasn't so dedicated. I think growing up on Sel would put you in a better position to begin training for a pan-galactic strongman competition.

[NameIess]

On 9/16/2025 at 10:19 PM, DoctaDajman said:

Awakening could probably augment your strength to a degree. Really your awakened objects will be able to lift and move anything that that material could lift and move. There are some straps and ropes with thousands... tens of thousands of pounds worth of tensile strength.  A 9th heightening awakener could literally awaken some arms made from 1 inch steel cable and throw around 100,000+ lbs.

The real question behind awakening is how does the body brace for this?  Perhaps you make some doc ock or iron spider limbs and allow your body to be carried around by these crazy cables that will also brace you up as they lift what needs to be lifted.  

We know that awakeners were using ropes as siege weapons to sling boulders. That is old rope. How much more could 9th heightening get with steel cable?  

Can awakeners can awaken metals 'normally'? We've only seen them awaken metals Nightblood style so far. Although modern science could probably make some very strong materials from once-living material anyways, so they'll still be quite strong.

[DoctaDajman]

17 hours ago, NameIess said:

Can awakeners can awaken metals 'normally'? We've only seen them awaken metals Nightblood style so far. Although modern science could probably make some very strong materials from once-living material anyways, so they'll still be quite strong.

Not normally. It requires the 9th heightening which makes it anything but normal. 

I do think that different metals would probably act in different ways. It takes a lot more breaths to convince any object to work in ways that it can't feasibly work on its own. We know of 2 swords that were awakened and a bunch of rocks. I personally think there is a difference between how each of these works but I have no time to look up WoBs to substantiate it. 

I really think there is a lot more breaths given to make something do something that is less natural to what its typical use is. Ropes and cloth are made for wrapping stuff up. Adding blood or shaping them to look like a human makes them less costly to awaken for intents that are human like. These are not super sticky and you can recall that breath with ease. 

Making swords do things makes them more sentient because there is no way to make a sword destroy something on its own... I think this is why you end up with items gaining sentience it is the breaths way of trying to force the item into a state where it can fulfill its command. 

That said, when you have something that is flexible and meldable similarly to steel cable I think you could easily find yourself with something capable of performing the actions of simpler commands while also being metallic and having all of those benefits. 

The fact that steel cable can move and act the same as rope makes me think it would be easier for the breaths to get it to do what is needed.  Of course the settings we have seen awakeners in so far have been far enough back that steel cable wasnt really a thing. 

We know that awakening helps with technology a lot more. How its is being used by anyone less than the 9th heightening I find intriguing but I think there are tablets, locks, and computers that are awakened in future cosmere books. 

The real benefits to steel cable over ropes and straps is that you can move a lot more weight with less bulk I would think. There is an obvious cutoff where the thickness of ropes or cables would make them less capable of the dexterity needed to be awakened to act as extra long arms for lifting things... but until those break points steel is just the winner for its strength in my opinion. 

I am fascinated in the braiding of rope and steel cables. You untwist the ends and you can simulate fingers and hands which would make it even more breath efficient because it is closer to human. Obviously steel is further than organic items but maybe weaving in some hair or blood and braiding it to resemble the shape of a man (2 legs 2 arms and a head with a thickly braided spinal column connecting them) would help it work more like typical Awakenings. 

 

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

I do think that different metals would probably act in different ways. It takes a lot more breaths to convince any object to work in ways that it can't feasibly work on its own. We know of 2 swords that were awakened and a bunch of rocks. I personally think there is a difference between how each of these works but I have no time to look up WoBs to substantiate it. 

Yes, the metal and the object both have an impact. WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

asmodeus

If the only variable we change, during the creation of Nightblood, is to use a different Allomantically-viable metal (say, iron or bronze instead of steel), but keep everything else constant (the same Breaths, same people doing the same visualization, and whatever other factors were involved), would it have manifested different powers/capabilities?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Most likely.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

Quote

howtofall

We know that the effects of various magic systems are changed by their interactions with metals (Scadrial’s three obviously, as well as fabrials on Roshar). So my question is: when a piece of metal is Awakened, does the type of metal change the nature of the Awakened object in any meaningful way?

For example, If Nightblood had been made of iron or tin rather than steel...

Brandon Sanderson

It would most likely change what is happening with Nightblood to use different materials, and that includes different types of metal.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

Quote

Questioner

If Vasher and Shashara had Awakened a non-weapon in exactly the same way as Nightblood (say a shield), would the object exhibit the same properties as Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

So, if you said "destroy evil" to a shield... no, it wouldn't be exactly the same. The Command is the most important part of all of this, but the shape, how the weapon perceives itself, how you perceive it, is all gonna play into this. They're playing with some real dangerous stuff when they made Nightblood. And it didn't go as intended.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)

 

Hope that helps

[DoctaDajman]

17 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Yes, the metal and the object both have an impact. WoBs:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Hope that helps

I'm wondering if the breaths would have been as sticky as we see with nightblood and shasharas blade had they been put into something like a steel cable with similar commands to how ropes are used. My guess would be that you would be able to retrieve them just as well. But I think that makes a big difference in whether or not I would choose to awaken cable at all. 

[Treamayne]

24 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

I'm wondering if the breaths would have been as sticky as we see with nightblood and shasharas blade had they been put into something like a steel cable with similar commands to how ropes are used. My guess would be that you would be able to retrieve them just as well. But I think that makes a big difference in whether or not I would choose to awaken cable at all. 

I had read the rest of the post and was still looking for WoBs - that's why I only quoted the part to which I responding (to answer the question about types of metals, since you said you had no time to look up the WoBs). 

I cannot find anything about Awakening metallic cabling. There is this WoB about normal Type III BioChromatic entities requiring flexibility to simulate muscle/sinew - and (in this WoB) stone just is not flexible enough for that kind of Awakening. I would think that implies that Awakening Cable as Rope should still be viable, though it would still require a much larger number of Breaths based on the Law of BioChromatic Parallelism.

WoB:

Spoiler

Quote

Warbreaker Ch 46:

This is per the Law of BioChromatic Parallelism: the closer a host is to a living shape and form, the easier it is to Awaken. BioChroma is the power of life, and so it seeks patterns of life. 

Warbreaker Ch 5:

Vasher turned away from the court, wrapping his sandaled foot around one of the banners that ran down the outside of the wall. Then he released his Breath.

“Lower me,” he Commanded.

The large tapestry—woven from wool threads—sucked hundreds of Breaths from him. It hadn’t the form of a man, and it was massive in size, but Vasher now had enough Breath to spend in such extravagant Awakenings.

The tapestry twisted, a thing alive, and formed a hand, which picked Vasher up. As always, the Awakening tried to imitate the form of a human—looking closely at the twistings and undulations of the fabric, Vasher could see outlines of muscles and even veins. There was no need for them; the Breath animated the fabric, and no muscles were necessary for it to move.

DylanHuebner

I was wondering how the animation of the lifeless statues worked, in regard to the use of Susebron's Breath. If they were lifeless, then vasher wouldn't have been able to take his Breath back out of them, nor would susebron have needed such a great deal of breath to revive them—he just would have needed a password. But if they were simply Awakened, no password would have been necessary to animate the statues, just Breath and Command.

It seems like the statues could be neither lifeless nor awakened. Are they unique, because of the use of bone, or am I missing something? The only other explanation I could think of was that they were lifeless, but Susebron's breath wasn't used to activate the statues, he simply had it passed down from vasher, in addition to the statues. If that's the case(and then I've simply been confusing myself with unnecessary, convoluted logic), why was it necessary to keep the breath safe for all these years?

Brandon Sanderson

Wow, there are a lot of questions in there. If you follow the drafts, I think you can see the evolution of what became of the Lifeless army. Originally I had planned for the statues to simply have been placed there so that you could Awaken them—just in my original concepts, before I started the writing—and then that became the army.

I eventually decided that didn't work for various reasons. Number one, as I developed the magic system, Awakening stone doesn't work very well. You've got to have limberness, you've got to have motion to something for it to actually be stronger. So a soldier made out of cloth would be more useful to you than a soldier made out of stone, if you were just Awakening something. At that point, as I was developing this, I went back to the drawing board and said okay, I need to leave him a whole group of really cool Lifeless as the army. But that had problems in that the ichor would not have stayed good long enough. Plus they already had a pretty big Lifeless army, so what was special about this one? Remember, I'm revising concepts like this as the book is going along. You can see where in the story I could see what needed to be there. So I went back to the drawing board again.

I think the original draft of WARBREAKER you can download off my website has them just as statues, though at the time when I was writing that I already knew it would need to change. I was just sticking to my outline because I needed to have the whole thing complete on the page before I could work with it. A lot of times that's how I do things as a writer—I get the rough draft down, and then I begin to sculpt.

I eventually developed essentially what you've just outlined in the first part, before you started worrying if you were too convoluted. I said, well, what if there's a hybrid? What happens if you Awaken bones? Can you create something? The reason that you can't draw the Breath back from a Lifeless is because the Breath clings to it. If the Lifeless were sentient enough, it could give up its own Breath, but you can't take it, just like you can't take a Breath from a person by force. You have to get them to give it up willingly. So it sticks to the Lifeless. A Lifeless is, let's say, 90% of a sentient being. The Breath doesn't manifest in them, because they aren't alive, yet they're almost there. A stone statue brought to life would be way down on the bottom rung.

Is there something in between? That's the advancement I had Vasher discover—what if we build something out of bone, but then encase it in stone to make it strong, and build it in ways that the bone is held together by the force of the Breaths? That's really what you're getting at there, that you need a lot of Breath, a lot of power, to hold all that stone together. There are seams at the joints. What the Breath is doing is clinging there like magical sinew, and it's holding all of that together.

Vasher left the Phantoms Invested with enough Breath to hold them together but not to move. You needed another big, substantial influx of Breath in order to actually make them have motion, to bring them enough strength to move and that sort of thing. So it's kind of a hybrid.

Goodreads Fantasy Book Discussion Warbreaker Q&A (Jan. 18, 2010)

Hope that helps

Edited October 9, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG