Dusk's new outlook and it's relationship to Autonomy's intent

[juggbigt]

So Dusk realizes that no one can really "go it alone" at the end of the book. He not only needs a purpose, but admits, "I should like... I think... to not travel alone any longer." This growth in him seems quite the opposite to the mindset that Autonomy relishes in her avatars and followers in the works previous to this. Add the weird comment about Drominad being an old dominion of hers, I can't help but think that she's also joined with other shards. Wouldn't Autonomy be the very thing that would balance Discord back into Harmony and keep it there?

[lacrossedeamon]

Adding to this is that Initiation for being a Navigator is most likely having been deemed ready by a mentor. Similarly Sand Mastery Initiation needs to be presided over by another person. Both are kind of communal events. Autonomy has a few idiosyncrasies like that. Others are how hierarchical her followers are and the sort of leeway she gives them. I think she runs the gamut do to the whole many Avatars thing.

[Elegy he/him]

Idk, while Dusk's character arc had him move away from being alone (and autonomous), he will on the long run probably be able to do his part in defending the general autonomy of worlds in the Cosmere:

Quote

"[...] Somewhere out there are people like the Eelakin, who do not know what the stars contain—and the dangers that will soon approach, now that nations can sail the emberdark. I would like the chance to see them first, if I can. To explain, and pass along our wisdom. [...]"

(Dusk, in the Epilogue)

Now that the Navigators - who have their powers because of Patji - can travel the stars, they can warn autonomous civilizations about the impending dangers of the space empires, and some of them might be able to prepare themselves and figure out strategies - at least they will have more time than FOTS had.

And, in a way, Dusk leaving his homeworld and realizing that he does "no longer have a home" but also coming to terms with that is also kinda compatible with Autonomy's Intent as well!

[Treamayne]

5 hours ago, juggbigt said:

This growth in him seems quite the opposite to the mindset that Autonomy relishes in her avatars and followers in the works previous to this.

That's the thing, though. Bavadin has not yet been shown to ever interpret "Autonomy" and "doing things alone" - Just as Ati Interpreted "Ruin" to be "Entropy," Bavadin appears to interpret "Autonomy" as "Survival of the Fittest."

Greatest Hits (known so far - Minor Spoilers, White Sand and Mistborn):

• (Historical) Created Sand Mastery, then had the Sand Lord appear to both siblings with opposite visions
  • To Lossa, the Sand Lord (avatar) granted Sand Mastery and bade her use it to protect settlements - birthing the Los'seen religion
  • To Kertz, the Sand Lord appeared to tell him "your sister has stolen my power and it is heresy for anybody but me to control the Sands" - birthing the Ker'reen religion
  • This,  as expected, spawned a multi-century war on Dayside
• On Darkside, we don't enough information to know exactly what happened yet, but we do know Skathan has somehow become immortal and gained power over Starmarks (interestingly similar to another human vessel for an Avatar of Autonomy we do have information about).
• White Sand - The Sand masters had become "lazy" so the Sand Lord instigated a new crises (the main plot of the book) to put them in a Survive (and grow past your stagnation) or Die situation
• On Sel, Jaddeth (implied Avatar of Autonomy) has guided the Wyrns to attempt an Empire on the continent of Sycla/Opelon . . . Twice
  • In this case, the empire has become trying to stamp out the remnant religions of Devotion and Dominion, by forcing each country to "convert or die"
• Backed the Set on Scadrial and gave them assistance, then basically left them to either "prove thier worth" and meet her goals, or be defeated and they would invade. 
• Drominad - The entire Pantheon is essentially a trial of learning how to survive and trap there, or die trying

WoB:

Spoiler

 

Quote

 

Alvaro Lopez

Why Odium is stronger and worst evil than Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

One reason is that Ruin had a person in control of it who, for many years, fought against the impulse to destroy--and in the end, channeled it toward entropy and decay, necessary elements of the universe. Odium represents something else entirely.

General Twitter 2018 (June 6, 2018)

 

Quote

strican

In The Lost Metal, it mentions Autonomy having avatars in other worlds. In Shu-Dereth on Sel, Jaddeth speaks directly to Wyrn, who then propagates his will down the hierarchy-

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

strican

Within the religion, ambition is rewarded, but only if it aligns with the orders of the hierarchy. That sounds similar to the philosophy used in the Set, but replacing Jaddeth with Trell. Is Jaddeth an avatar of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

*chuckles and points at screen in very satisfied way* RAFO. You're a very smart person.

It's [pronounced] "Yaddeth", by the way. That is also one of the Y-J's. ...

So, I will say this. Here's what I'll canonize. There is something happening, and the people there legitimately believe, and have reason to believe, that their god is going to return. And I have said before, many times, that Book 2 of Elantris begins with the return of their god. 'Cause they've said "God can't come back until everybody converts". But they've found a loophole. They're like "well, except those heretics in Elantris. And also that other little place, that tiny little region that's over in the mountains, where they talk about roses, they don't count either. Because they're, um, not actually part of the planet." Um, so. So that's something to look forward to, if I ever get around to writing Dakhor, is the return of Jaddeth, the god of [Shu-Dereth].

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 Hope that helps

[BinarySecond]

Autonomy is deciding your own path for yourself.

Dusks entire arc is finding out what he wants to do for himself after his previous life ended. 

He wants to preserve the autonomy of his own people within the Cosmere. It tracks for me.

[redundant]

My thought is that if you fully cut yourself off from the rest of humanity, you're letting them define you. Which isn't the most autonomous. 

[teknopathetic he/him]

We aren't even sure what is happening on Autonomy's planet though, right? We learn that Kriss went back to her planet to deal with whatever is going on there, so maybe there has been a major shakeup with that shard recently. 

[Nitpicking]

Isn't Taldain mentioned as a possible technology-superior to Scadrial?

[iceblade44 he/him]

On 8/25/2025 at 1:50 PM, Nitpicking said:

Isn't Taldain mentioned as a possible technology-superior to Scadrial?

It is yes. Which i find very interesting.

 

Like how, what part of their magic helps with that? I so want to know

[Nitpicking]

26 minutes ago, iceblade44 said:

It is yes. Which i find very interesting.

 

Like how, what part of their magic helps with that? I so want to know

Clearly it's the starmarks.

(That was a joke, based on our having no idea what the starmarks are or what they do.)

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, iceblade44 said:

It is yes. Which i find very interesting.

Like how, what part of their magic helps with that? I so want to know

@Nitpicking
It's not about how Sand Mastery or Starmarks influence the technology, it's that Autonomy gave them help with underlying Scientific Principals (possibly through [spoilers] Skathan, who is implied to be a Vessel for an Avatar of Autonomy). 

But, even without that, Taldain had higher levels of tech until Autonomy closed the system to Worldhoppers. WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

bmshklkh

I have a question about White Sand Vol 1, although this comment thread is probably not the best place to ask it.

Just wondering how you view the final product, in the range of "learning experience, next one will be different" to "amazing book, won't change a thing"? I've never published a graphic novel, and I'd love to know how you feel about it now that you're past the first volume and have the second one upcoming.

Brandon Sanderson

Hmm...

I'd say halfway between those two. I am very pleased with a lot of things about it. The thing that I don't think came out right is the worldbuilding, particularly the cultural worldbuilding.

psychomanexe

That is one difference I noticed. When you describe clothing and buildings and whatnot, it sort of brings them into focus in a different way than a graphic novel (or movie) does. With the graphic novel, my brain just went "ah, they're all wearing this kind of clothing, sure. Oh, she has a Victorian style dress, that's neat." and that was kind of the end of it.

I think it might have something to do with lingering on it? Like spending a lot of time describing something can show how important a thing is to a character (or the plot), but I kind of skipped over the descriptions by glancing at the picture then returning to dialogue.

On the plus side, it helps me reinforce the fact that I need to spend more time describing things in my book.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that's part of it. Though I don't think we got in the graphic novel some of the important worldbuilding elements, such as the armor that melts when sprayed with water, the unique forms of fighting, and the fact that the people you assume are the advanced ones (because they live in buildings instead of tents) are actually far less technologically developed than the ones who live out in the desert. (Because on this planet, that's the "good" land while the low sands are the less fertile parts.)

That was a dynamic that was very hard to get across in the book, though, and I don't know that my skill at the time was up to it. I was disappointed in the graphic novel once the colors and final art came back to discover a number of pages that looked like brave Europeans fighting savage desert people--which was the reverse of what I'd been trying to accomplish. (But is part of our cultural biases, so I'm not surprised it was how the artists ended up interpreting it. And I'm to blame for not reinforcing the idea stronger back when it could have been changed.)

General Reddit 2016 (Oct. 12, 2016)

Quote

yafeshan

I am space nerd with a love of fantasy, so; Why is Scadrial prime example planet to invent space travel. Is its allomancy/ferruchemy/hemalurgy combination more suitable for that kind of technology or do they have other incentives to invent space travel other than regular technology development? Is it related to the intervention of unknown metal/shard/beings we saw?

Brandon Sanderson

There are a bunch of reasons.

The most technologically advanced of the planets (Taldain) is extremely isolationist because of its Shard, while Harmony is very interested in the progress of his people.

Scadrial has an advanced understanding of metallurgy, and for many years was quietly open to visitors from across the cosmere. In the modern era, that has enhanced. It's a much safer place to visit than, say, Sel, Threnody, or First of the Sun.

There are other reasons, too, which we'll get into as the world progresses. Having some prominent cosmere-aware people pulling strings behind the scenes is a big help. If you know other worlds are out there, and are populated, then you're more likely to push toward space travel.

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 8, 2017)

Quote

DrogaKrolow

Technological progress. So Scadrial is going all the way to cyberpunk.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

DrogaKrolow

But do you plan to do it anywhere else?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, with an asterisk, right? Roshar has a very different technological path but they have access to so much more Investiture in an easy to use format. Roshar is really heading toward what we call magicpunk, or things like this, magepunk, where you are using a magical power source and things like this. So their technology is going to go weird but it's going to go fast once they start figuring things out because they have easy access to Investiture resources.

Scadrial: slower for various reasons and things like that, but it's ahead.

And then there was Taldain, which was really far ahead but then froze when it got-- Offworld travel was stopped and it became isolationist.

So most everybody is kind of heading that direction but, yeah.

DrogaKrolow.pl interview (March 17, 2017)

Quote

Truthwatcher_17.5

Darksiders have almost as advanced technology as second Era Scadrians.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

But then we see Darksiders in The Secret-- in Mistborn: The Secret History. So are they gonna be the first spacefarers, are they gonna get there before Scadrians?

Brandon Sanderson

So, where it is right now is that certain things have happened to Taldain that have isolated it and cut it off.

Questioner

Yeah, a little bit in Arcanum Unbounded talked about that.

Brandon Sanderson

And some-- they're under-- going through some difficult times, let's say... So, I will RAFO whether or not they're going to make it first to make it to space, but let's just say they were well on target to making it first before certain events happened.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

White Sand Spoilers:

Spoiler

During the events of White Sand (which is years to centuries before Mistborn Era 1, and even before the Reod at Elantris) we see evidence of Advanced Pneumatics, Chemistry, Gunpowder, etc. and It is implied that Darkside is undergoing an Industrial Revolution. 

TLM Epilogue 4:

Spoiler

“What are you proposing?” Sazed asked.

“Lead us into a new technological age,” Kelsier said. “Help us find ways to defend ourselves, and perhaps accomplish even more. Autonomy consistently shares with her people the things they can accomplish with electricity and industry. You don’t.”

“People should discover it on their own,” Sazed said. “If they do not, there are subtle consequences. 

 

Hope that helps

Edited September 1, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[iceblade44 he/him]

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

@Nitpicking
It's not about how Sand Mastery or Starmarks influence the technology, it's that Autonomy gave them with underlying Scientific Principals. 

But, even without that, Taldain had higher levels of tech until Autonomy closed the system to Worldhoppers. WoBs:

  Reveal hidden contents

White Sand Spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

During the events of White Sand (which is years to centuries before Mistborn Era 1, and even before the Reod at Elantris) we see evidence of Advanced Pneumatics, Chemistry, Gunpowder, etc. and It is implied that Darkside is undergoing an Industrial Revolution. 

TLM Epilogue 4:

  Reveal hidden contents

“What are you proposing?” Sazed asked.

“Lead us into a new technological age,” Kelsier said. “Help us find ways to defend ourselves, and perhaps accomplish even more. Autonomy consistently shares with her people the things they can accomplish with electricity and industry. You don’t.”

“People should discover it on their own,” Sazed said. “If they do not, there are subtle consequences. 

 

Hope that helps

So there is a problem with this statement.

 

While having of scientific principles are good and it what lead Taldain ahead over most of the Cosmere.

 

That won't allow you to crack FTL. To crack FTL in in the Cosmere, you need magic. The thing thats important here is that Starling implies that Taldain's ships are independent from other civilizations in the Cosmere, for they can power their ships without aethers. Aethers are a magical resource given to use to act as both fuel and propellet so efficient then anything we have IRL can compare. It was made so space travel was actually feasible and thats not even the ftl part yet. Not only does Taldain not use it they have something better. You can only get that from magic, whether its White Sand or Starmarks they will have a factor in their technology to allow them to be this superior. That is the only possibility that can make sense when it must compare with the tech we see in Emberdark.

[Treamayne]

4 minutes ago, iceblade44 said:

That won't allow you to crack FTL. To crack FTL in in the Cosmere, you need magic. The thing thats important here is that Starling implies that Taldain's ships are independent from other civilizations in the Cosmere, for they can power their ships without aethers. Aethers are a magical resource given to use to act as both fuel and propellet so efficient then anything we have IRL can compare. It was made so space travel was actually feasible and thats not even the ftl part yet. Not only does Taldain not use it they have something better. You can only get that from magic, whether its White Sand or Starmarks they will have a factor in their technology to allow them to be this superior. That is the only possibility that can make sense when it must compare with the tech we see in Emberdark.

My apologies, your previous post did not mention FTL - only general "tech"

We won't have more information on Starmarks until we get Darksiders (There is some info in the Omnibus Ars Arcanum) - and, even then, it will be from the Cosmere's Past - taking place shortly after White Sand does; based on current known information. That said, with a higher starting level of Technological understanding, the gap to FTL may well be smaller. Also, please consider that FLT in IED has two definitions - using ships to traverse Shadesmar, and using Ships to cover the distance to a planet in the Physical Realm alone. Starling's comments do not determine which (or both) may be referenced. Also, Starling does not say that Taldain does not use Aethers, either - she just noted to herself that even though Dajer is talking up the Malwish, they are still reliant on Aethers (with no indication if others are or are-not also using Aethers).

IED Ch 40

Spoiler

“Do not be so quick to assume what can and cannot be done,” he said. “The dragons have stagnated. Once, they flew, and mortals walked. Now any child with a coin can soar as they did—and even the gods tremble before what mortals create. I can take those manacles off. Scadrial is the most technologically advanced planet in all the cosmere.”

Did you clear that claim with Taldain? she thought. Or better, the planets Invention created? And for all your technological prowess, your ships run on aether.

She didn’t say any of this. She didn’t need to antagonize him, and the Scadrians did tend to be proud of their mechanical wonders.

Also, note that the White Sand Omnibus does have hints of some Starmark abilties. With it being likely that Sand Masters use a Luhel Bond to control the sand, it could be that Taldain is also using Aethers - but is better/more efficient with their use due to millenia of experience with the Luhel Bond. Not to mention that the Sand is actually a bond to a microflora which can be bred - so Taldain may very well have been able to expand which media can host the Microflora (and therefore be Bonded and Controlled). 

Hope that helps

[iceblade44 he/him]

3 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

My apologies, your previous post did not mention FTL - only general "tech"

We won't have more information on Starmarks until we get Darksiders (There is some info in the Omnibus Ars Arcanum) - and, even then, it will be from the Cosmere's Past - taking place shortly after White Sand does; based on current known information. That said, with a higher starting level of Technological understanding, the gap to FTL may well be smaller. Also, please consider that FLT in IED has two definitions - using ships to traverse Shadesmar, and using Ships to cover the distance to a planet in the Physical Realm alone. Starling's comments do not determine which (or both) may be referenced. Also, Starling does not say that Taldain does not use Aethers, either - she just noted to herself that even though Dajer is talking up the Malwish, they are still reliant on Aethers (with no indication if others are or are-not also using Aethers).

IED Ch 40

  Hide contents

“Do not be so quick to assume what can and cannot be done,” he said. “The dragons have stagnated. Once, they flew, and mortals walked. Now any child with a coin can soar as they did—and even the gods tremble before what mortals create. I can take those manacles off. Scadrial is the most technologically advanced planet in all the cosmere.”

Did you clear that claim with Taldain? she thought. Or better, the planets Invention created? And for all your technological prowess, your ships run on aether.

She didn’t say any of this. She didn’t need to antagonize him, and the Scadrians did tend to be proud of their mechanical wonders.

Also, note that the White Sand Omnibus does have hints of some Starmark abilties. With it being likely that Sand Masters use a Luhel Bond to control the sand, it could be that Taldain is also using Aethers - but is better/more efficient with their use due to millenia of experience with the Luhel Bond. Not to mention that the Sand is actually a bond to a microflora which can be bred - so Taldain may very well have been able to expand which media can host the Microflora (and therefore be Bonded and Controlled). 

Hope that helps

From how Starling said it, to me it implied that Taldain and Invention's worlds don't need to rely on aethers for their ships. Again that is how I read and isnt confirmed in the text as you pointed out.

While Starmarks are a mystery(though there are hints they deal with hard light) i think you right its possible they could use White Sand to be more effective then the aethers. We know that when mastered the Sand taps right into the Spiritual Realm. There could be more going on there but that is just my current theory for now

[redundant]

My pet theory is that there are actually three types of FTL. Skipping seems to not take any time and that would indicate travel via the Spiritual Realm. 

[bmcclure7]

On 8/19/2025 at 7:54 PM, Treamayne said:

That's the thing, though. Bavadin has not yet been shown to ever interpret "Autonomy" and "doing things alone" - Just as Ati Interpreted "Ruin" to be "Entropy," Bavadin appears to interpret "Autonomy" as "Survival of the Fittest."

Greatest Hits (known so far - Minor Spoilers, White Sand and Mistborn):

• (Historical) Created Sand Mastery, then had the Sand Lord appear to both siblings with opposite visions
  • To Lossa, the Sand Lord (avatar) granted Sand Mastery and bade her use it to protect settlements - birthing the Los'seen religion
  • To Kertz, the Sand Lord appeared to tell him "your sister has stolen my power and it is heresy for anybody but me to control the Sands" - birthing the Ker'reen religion
  • This,  as expected, spawned a multi-century war on Dayside
• On Darkside, we don't enough information to know exactly what happened yet, but we do know Skathan has somehow become immortal and gained power over Starmarks (interestingly similar to another human vessel for an Avatar of Autonomy we do have information about).
• White Sand - The Sand masters had become "lazy" so the Sand Lord instigated a new crises (the main plot of the book) to put them in a Survive (and grow past your stagnation) or Die situation
• On Sel, Jaddeth (implied Avatar of Autonomy) has guided the Wyrns to attempt an Empire on the continent of Sycla/Opelon . . . Twice
  • In this case, the empire has become trying to stamp out the remnant religions of Devotion and Dominion, by forcing each country to "convert or die"
• Backed the Set on Scadrial and gave them assistance, then basically left them to either "prove thier worth" and meet her goals, or be defeated and they would invade. 
• Drominad - The entire Pantheon is essentially a trial of learning how to survive and trap there, or die trying

WoB:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 Hope that helps

I thought the sand masters where atheists?

[Treamayne]

1 minute ago, bmcclure7 said:

I thought the sand masters where atheists?

Many modern Sand Masters are, but not all. That does not detract from the fact that the Sand Lord gifted Lossa with Sand Mastery and she founded both Lossand and the Sand Masters. 

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Many modern Sand Masters are, but not all. That does not detract from the fact that the Sand Lord gifted Lossa with Sand Mastery and she founded both Lossand and the Sand Masters. 

Good point I was thinking of modern sand masters I forget that sand master has been around for a long time and probably changed a lot. Makes you wonder what was the point of the Sandlords setting up these two groups to fight to each other.

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Good point I was thinking of modern sand masters I forget that sand master has been around for a long time and probably changed a lot. Makes you wonder what was the point of the Sandlords setting up these two groups to fight to each other.

That was kind of my original Point - Bavadin seems to take a "survival of the fittest" view of Autonomy (like "Highlander" - there can be only one). In this case it was pitting Kertz and Lossa (and descendants)  against each other, so only the worthy would win and control the continent. Just as (WS spoilers):

Spoiler

The whole story of White Sand is the Sand Lord deciding the stalemate between Lossand and Kertza is unacceptable, so Autonomy's Avatar went to the A'Kar to tell him how to use Terken Sandling shell to defeat Sand Mastery, then appeared to Elorin to convince him to betray the Diem - all in order to break the stalemate and force adaption and change throughout Dayside.