Supercharged Heralds

[Trusk'our he/him]

Alright, so Honor, Cultivation, and Odium all had a finite amount of Investiture that they could bestow upon their servants as per their agreement.

Spoiler

"WHAT LIMITS DO YOU PROPOSE?" RAYSE ASKED.

SHE HELD OUT HER HAND, AND EQUATIONS APPEARED ABOVE IT, MANIFEST IN NOTATIONS WE COULD INSTANTLY UNDERSTAND. ONLY A PORTION OF OUR POWERS COULD BE GRANTED TO MORTALS- WITHIN DISTINCT CONTROLS. THERE WAS VERSATILITY, I SAW, AND GENIUS IN HOW IT WAS PRESENTED. ONE COULD GRANT GREAT POWERS TO INDIVIDUALS, IF THEY WERE WILLING TO BEND TO DIVINE RULES AS WE DID. OR INSTEAD, LESSER POWER COULD BE GIVEN INDISCRIMNATELY TO MANY.

WaT, pg. 1,052

But later, Honor comments on how he granted the Heralds access to more of his power, though the Unmade are specifically mentioned to be stronger because Rayse didn't Invest the Fused as greatly.

Spoiler

RAYSE'S FORCES GROW MORE POWERFUL, I NOTED AS I WALED THE BATTLEFIELD, CALCULATING CASUALTY NUMBERS. THE UNMADE, IN PARTICULAR, WERE GROWING IN STRENGTH. HE HAD HIDDEN THEIR CREATION FROM ME, AND I FOUND THEM UNNERVING. MY RADIANTS COUD DO GREAT THINGS, BUT WERE KEPT IN CHECK BY THEIR OATHS. HIS FUSED WERE MORE LIMITED- LEAVING HIM EXTRA STRENGTH HE COULD GIVE TO THE UNMADE.

WaT, pg. 1,096-1,097

 

THE SHADOW WITHDREW, TIMID, LIKE A FAIN ANIMAL SEEING THE COLORFUL WORLD FOR THE FIRST TIME. YES, KOR WAS RIGHT. BUT THIS OPENING WOULDTAKE MANY YEARS TO MATURE, AND I COULD NOT WAIT UPON IT. AND THUS, I DECIDED TO PUSH THE HERALDS HARDER. I LET THEM ACCESS MY POWERS MORE FULLY AND THOSE OF ROSHAR ITSELF.

Wat, pg. 1,099

I had assumed that Honor had already given the maximum output of Investiture so that his forces could be at full power. Was this just an incorrect assumption, or were the Heralds perhaps just given more laxness in their bindings and not more Investiture? But, Honor really, really wants to keep oaths. How could Tanavast lower the Heralds' inhibitions if the Shard was following an agreement to bind them in order to prevent a potential cataclysm?

I might be approaching this the wrong way, and I'd like to hear others' thoughts on the matter.

 

 

One final thought- do we have any guesses as to what Cultivation was doing with her (presumed) extra power? The Radiants all have pieces of both Cultivation and Honor, but the Heralds are only of Honor, which probably leaves a sizable portion of Investiture left over for Kor to use as she wants. I'm sure the Boons/Curses fall into this usage, but most people who bear them probably die eventually and that Investiture eventually recycles back to her.

Does Cultivation have something else she made up her sleeve, perhaps?

[Treamayne]

58 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Alright, so Honor, Cultivation, and Odium all had a finite amount of Investiture that they could bestow upon their servants as per their agreement.

  Hide contents

"WHAT LIMITS DO YOU PROPOSE?" RAYSE ASKED.

SHE HELD OUT HER HAND, AND EQUATIONS APPEARED ABOVE IT, MANIFEST IN NOTATIONS WE COULD INSTANTLY UNDERSTAND. ONLY A PORTION OF OUR POWERS COULD BE GRANTED TO MORTALS- WITHIN DISTINCT CONTROLS. THERE WAS VERSATILITY, I SAW, AND GENIUS IN HOW IT WAS PRESENTED. ONE COULD GRANT GREAT POWERS TO INDIVIDUALS, IF THEY WERE WILLING TO BEND TO DIVINE RULES AS WE DID. OR INSTEAD, LESSER POWER COULD BE GIVEN INDISCRIMNATELY TO MANY.

WaT, pg. 1,052

Keep in mind, the portion you bolded here is likely talking about creating Avatars (Mistborn):

Spoiler

Such as Autonomy was trying with Telsin - where the being would have to become a Vessel bound by the same rules and Limitations as a Shard.

 

[sespe14 he/him]

I think that in order to avoid what happened in Alashwa/Ashyn, Honor decided not to go all out against Odium.

We know that Tanavast loves Kor and that they had a plan of what they wanted to do, so i think that with the radiants and heralds, they both used some of the power they were allowed. Basically using the same amount of power each one was allowed to use but together. (Perhaps to avoid burning Roshar)

So when Honor sees the Unmade, he decided to invest more the heralds, giving them more power while still not going against the agreement with Rayse since he never have them the maximum amount of power he could have.

 

Or thats what i can think of this, please correct me if i'm wrong with something

[Jult]

To me, "push the Heralds harder" implies that Tanavast had already given the Heralds as much power as they were comfortable accepting. I'd speculate that the heralds didn't want the maximum amount of power allowed because it would have required them to be bound by stricter limitations. But, at this point in the story, Tanavast convinced them that leveling up was worth the cost.

On 5/19/2025 at 2:05 PM, Trusk'our said:

One final thought- do we have any guesses as to what Cultivation was doing with her (presumed) extra power? The Radiants all have pieces of both Cultivation and Honor, but the Heralds are only of Honor, which probably leaves a sizable portion of Investiture left over for Kor to use as she wants. I'm sure the Boons/Curses fall into this usage, but most people who bear them probably die eventually and that Investiture eventually recycles back to her.

Does Cultivation have something else she made up her sleeve, perhaps?

As you said, some of her power went to the Radiants. Some also went to the Spren; especially to the Sibling and the Nightwatcher. She also seems to have some impact on the Purelake and the Horneater Peaks (though the latter is probably only due to her perpendicularity).

I'd agree that none of that adds up to the amounts of Investiture that Honor and Odium spent. 

I have a personal suspicion that Cultivation has a connection to the Siah Aimians. It seems odd to me that the Shards got so involved in the development of the Humans and Singers but just left this third native sentient race alone. Plus, Axies the Collector has some odd abilities that aren't associated with any methods of Investiture that we've seen so far. Maybe the immortal, blue, shapeshifters can account for a chunk of Cultivation's Investiture?

I guess it's also possible that Cultivation was just less generous with her Investiture than Honor and Odium. 

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, Jult said:

just left this third native sentient race alone.

To be fair, we do not yet know if the Siah are Rosharan Natives. Though their hybrid offspring (Natanatan, Babatharnam) would likely qualify in the way that Humans now do. The only confirmed Native Rosharan Sapient race (so far) is Singers. Everything else has been confirmed as Immigrant descendants or hybrid races - except the Siah which is the primary remaining unknown (with Selay being the other - likely human but possibly not).

• Dysian Aimians (Sleepless)
  • no hybrids due to incompatible biology
• Iriali
  • Rirans (Hybrid with Humans)
• Humans
  • Herdazians (Hybrid with Singers)
  • Unkalaki (Hybrid with Singers)
  • Natanatani (Hybrid with Siah)
  • Babath (Selay Hybrid with Siah - assuming Selay are human or another hybrid themselves)

Spoiler

Quote

Adarain

There seems to be a concentration of “aliens” in the west of Roshar, with both the Sleepless and the Iriali being non-Rosharan, possibly the Siah Aimians too (though I have my own headcanon about them); and of course the Ashynite humans arrived somewhere in the west too, probably in or near Shinovar. Is this a coincidence? It seems reasonable to me that in the past, Honor’s Perpendicularity was somewhere in the region and at least some of these groups used it to arrive on Roshar.

Brandon Sanderson

Not a coincidence. Having multiple perpendicularities on the land, mixed with easy-to-access Investiture, mixed with a vibrant Shadesmar side with actual cultures and cities all make Roshar a tempting destination. The amount of investiture flying around (literally) also makes the place a little easier to find in Shadesmar than other destinations might be.

There's also the fact that it wasn't created post-Shattering, like Scadrial was. There's just been more time to get to it.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 16, 2020)

Quote

Questioner

Aimians and honorspren have a lot in common. They can change their appearance, they are blue, they don't seem to die. Are those Aimians descendants of humans and honorspren?

Brandon Sanderson

No, good question though! The reasons they can change shape are similarly related. Excellent question.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

Hope that helps

[Jult]

13 hours ago, Treamayne said:

To be fair, we do not yet know if the Siah are Rosharan Natives. Though their hybrid offspring (Natanatan, Babatharnam) would likely qualify in the way that Humans now do. The only confirmed Native Rosharan Sapient race (so far) is Singers. Everything else has been confirmed as Immigrant descendants or hybrid races - except the Siah which is the primary remaining unknown (with Selay being the other - likely human but possibly not).

True. I think I was misremembering this WoB when I claimed Siah were native to the Rosharan system:

Spoiler

Quote

Finallity (paraphrased)

We've seen a number of human/singer hybrids (Unkalaki and Herdazians) and even human/Aimian hybrids (Natans). How is such a thing possible biologically or is there some outside influence there?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said that they (humans and parshendi/aimians) can interbreed because they were made by the same person, or rather that they were made with the same intent, that they were made that way on purpose. They don't have a common heritage or anything though.

English Reading Series at BYU 2018 (Feb. 23, 2018)

On re-reading it, it really only confirms that they were created by the same person (presumably Adonalsium) - not at the same time/place.

I still wouldn't take them out of the running for being Cultivation's backup plan (if she has one).

[Treamayne]

52 minutes ago, Jult said:

I still wouldn't take them out of the running for being Cultivation's backup plan (if she has one).

Concur - Cultivation's use of the Babath in attacking Kharbranth implies a Connection of some sort - but just as Humans represent Honor without being Rosharan Natives, I don't think that Connection implies anything about the origins of the Siah. 

Edited May 21, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[LewsTherinTelescope]

This bit from Hoid might be relevant (W&T chapter 33):

Spoiler

"Lift, you're so highly Invested I’m surprised normal people can’t feel it. You glow so brightly to my life sense that you outshine anyone nearby. You’re sure Gavinor was here?"

 

[Jult]

This isn't in any way shape or form concrete evidence. But I did notice today in this Stormlight RPG artwork that a Selay individual is used as the poster child for Edgedancers (i.e. Cultivation Spren bonders). Probably means nothing, but I thought it was interesting since we were discussing Cultivation's connection to the Babath people (who are ethnically Selay). Using a Listener as the Willshaper poster child seems less-than-random so maybe that race/order pairing was purposely chosen as well?

[LewsTherinTelescope]

4 hours ago, Jult said:

a Selay individual is used as the poster child for Edgedancers

Isn't that an Iriali? The only thing we know about the Selay racially is that they have distinctive "skin ripples".

[Jult]

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Isn't that an Iriali? The only thing we know about the Selay racially is that they have distinctive "skin ripples".

Heh... It's very possible I mistook the blue markings on his body as the 'skin ripples' and he's just a regular Iriali. I was under the impression that Selay were related to the Iriali since the Selay language belongs to the Iri language family. So, I've always imagined them with similar golden skin. But I can't find any confirmation of their skin color now, so I may have confused some of my head canon for truth.