Hemalurgy bindpoints and Bleeder... this scene doesn't make sense

[DoctaDajman]

I am trying to reconcile aluminum weaponry and intent. So I will reach out to some folks who have been active in similar discussions. 

@Trusk'our @CoderDrag0n8 @Duxredux

One of the big components of hemalurgy is the bindpoints. So, is the spike being in the proper spot necessary for it to bind to your spiritweb? But I find myself questioning 2 scenes.

The first is Spook. I believe the answer is that Ruin guided the arm of the dude who stabbed him and that is why it both pierced the thug in the correct place and it pierced Spook in the right place. Or is that wrong and shards can't directly control the trajectory of someone's swinging arm and it was a happy coincidence that they were stabbed where they were stabbed and Ruin simply juiced it up with some good intent? 

For Paalm I wonder about this same thing. Did Harmony guide the bullet (unlikely that he could change the course of the bullet) or did he position Wax properly or does kandra anatomy explain the issues with placement? 

Next question. Does placement of the spike entering the body you are stealing from matter as much?  

I dont think shards can exert any sort of control over aluminum can they? This could be changed via the shard guiding the arm of the spike holder though right.  

In the end I think that it will be very hard for a mere mortal to get the correct placement of a shot against some fullborn or so radiant in armor and thus intent doesn't much matter in the fact that it is the only easy part. 

[ChickenBonanza]

Spook getting pewter-spiked was set up by Ruin, indeed. Provided for all the intricacies. I think the Thug that did it might have been Hemalurgically spiked? Which is why Ruin could influence movements and provide the Intent to spike.

Bindpoints in non-humans are weird. In humans, they correlate to the flowing paths of blood, (edit: in their own fashion, of course. did not mean to imply the circulatory system specifically. acupuncture scheisse) in their own consistent positions, by my reckoning. In Kandra, however, that’s entirely uncertain. They receive their Blessings in the ‘shoulder’ region, but their biology is entirely inconsistent. Like, where would the shoulders be in the myriad torsos of a Mistwraith? That said, Harmony probably helped position the spike shot to hit wherever it needed to, if indeed he did need to.

Bindpoints are extremely important in Hemalurgy. Incredible precision is needed, in both stealing and giving. Wrong spot, you get something different from what you wanted, or nothing at all.

Maybe less so on the giving. Like, maybe any power can go anywhere as long as it’s in an appropriate bindpoint, but don’t trust me on that.

Edited April 1, 2025 by ChickenBonanza

[Trusk'our he/him]

50 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

The first is Spook. I believe the answer is that Ruin guided the arm of the dude who stabbed him and that is why it both pierced the thug in the correct place and it pierced Spook in the right place. Or is that wrong and shards can't directly control the trajectory of someone's swinging arm and it was a happy coincidence that they were stabbed where they were stabbed and Ruin simply juiced it up with some good intent? 

Marsh received guidance from Ruin when implanting a spike in Penrod in HoA, so I think it's most likely the Thug who spiked Spook was also receiving subconscious guidance. 

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For Paalm I wonder about this same thing. Did Harmony guide the bullet (unlikely that he could change the course of the bullet) or did he position Wax properly or does kandra anatomy explain the issues with placement? 

I don't think that was as necessary with Paalm, as they just needed to punch a hole in her Spiritweb with Wax's earring-bullet. Anywhere would probably have worked, assuming it drove deep enough. 

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Next question. Does placement of the spike entering the body you are stealing from matter as much?  

It appears that both the placement in the donor and the recipient matter (at least if you want properly functioning powers), as Atium Hemalurgy can be screwed up if you aren't precise in stabbing your kidnapped Mistborn.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/377-idaho-falls-signing/#e12283

Questioner

My question was about Hemalurgy. There was a disagreement on the last Shardcast. When spiking a Mistborn to charge a Hemalurgic spike, does it matter how the Mistborn is killed or is what power is stolen based only on the metal?

Brandon Sanderson

So you want to place the spike in a specific place.

Questioner

In the donor. In the recipient, not the donor.

Brandon Sanderson

In the recipient. And you want to use the specific metal and so basically if you aren't precise about how you spike, you risk taking the wrong thing within the same family. Some of those, that's not as big a deal, but for some it is kind of a big deal. And so you want to be very precise, you'll get something, but if you're not placing the spike in the right place and going into the right place, then you risk it.

Questioner

You risk stealing the wrong thing.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Now if you're going off of somebody who's not a Mistborn, you can be a little more flexible, but you still have the danger that you're not going to end up stealing the power, you're going to steal something else. So, precision is advisable, how about that?

Questioner

Yeah. Because the question was kind of specifically about, like, we know that atium spikes can kill-- can steal pretty much any power.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You want to be super precise with your atium spike.

Questioner

So, part of the question was like, exactly, if you just killed a Mistborn, you stab a Mistborn in the heart with an atium spike, and you're not placing it immediately--

Brandon Sanderson

What do you end up with? You are rolling the dice, let's say. Not as big a roll of the dice as you might think, but you still are. You might not get what you want.

Questioner

And then when you place the spike on the recipient, if you like tore that spike out again and put it in someone else, you're not going to be able to get more than one power out of it?

Brandon Sanderson

No. No, and if you place the spike in the wrong place, then you're going to end up with interference and things like this where the spike might just not work the way you want it to. Taking a spike and putting it in the wrong place in someone is not going to make them have a different power, in other words.

 

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I dont think shards can exert any sort of control over aluminum can they? This could be changed via the shard guiding the arm of the spike holder though right.  

They probably can't directly affect the aluminum, as Investiture thus far seems incapable of it. But they could probably guide the hand of a person trying to make use of it, which would be largely the same, I think.

Quote

In the end I think that it will be very hard for a mere mortal to get the correct placement of a shot against some fullborn or so radiant in armor and thus intent doesn't much matter in the fact that it is the only easy part. 

I would assume it would be harder than has been proposed simply for balancing issues, but I don't know for certain. Aluminum on its own is honestly a pretty dangerous weapon.

Edited March 31, 2025 by Trusk'our

[CoderDrag0n8 He/Him]

I remember seeing a WoB somewhere that went along the lines of, shards can talk/take control of entities no matter where the hemalurgic spike is. Vin just had to be spiked to hear ruin. Wax the same. Bleeder just needed to be spiked to feel the effects taken by harmony.

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

I am trying to reconcile aluminum weaponry and intent. So I will reach out to some folks who have been active in similar discussions.

Everybody has answered well for the most part, I would just like to add the supporting WoBs:

Spoiler

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Questioner

Allomancy requires, you need to be either a Misting or a Mistborn to be able to do that. But Hemalurgy you just need to stab someone through the heart. So what would stop someone on Roshar from using Hemalurgy, because it's not Innate? Do you have to be in proximity to Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

Intent is a big part of a lot of the magics, including Hemalurgy, meaning that you need to know what you're doing. Or somebody needs to-- There needs to be Intent involved in what's happening to you.

Questioner

So like with Spook when he got spiked, where was the Intent?

Brandon Sanderson

The person who was driving that spike was being influenced by Ruin, and the Intent was there.

Questioner

So unless you knew what you were trying to do with a Hemalurgic spike, you couldn't do Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

You could not steal attributes no.
 

<edited for length and relevance> Holiday signing (Dec. 12, 2015)

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focoma

We've seen Kandra True Bodies made of crystal, stone, or wood. Can a kandra use a True Body made of metal? If so, what happens if each metal "bone" had a Hemalurgic charge, and each one is touching an appropriate bind point?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. And that would work, better than you think, because Kandra have fluid bind points. But too many spikes can be dangerous to the psyche, even with Ati not messing things up.

/r/books AMA 2015 (March 12, 2015)

The Lord Ruler was influenced by Ruin without Hemalurgy - it only takes invested spikes (or other cracks in the soul):

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<edited for length and relevance>

Questioner

Why in the world would the Lord Ruler spike himself?

<snip>

Isaac Stewart

Peter, was the Lord Ruler spiked?

Brandon Sanderson

Lord Ruler was spiked, right?  Or is it just--

Peter Ahlstrom

I don't think so.

Brandon Sanderson

--piereced with metalminds, right? They're not actual spikes, just metalminds.

And I want to ask the Sharders on there [the recorder] about that Lord Ruler question, because I didn’t think he was spiked but--

 
Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

So, with one spike already the bullet did not need to be precise when striking Paalm - it just needed to lodge in the body and not exit through.

 

2 hours ago, ChickenBonanza said:

In humans, they correlate to the flowing paths of blood,

Not entirely correct. Hemalurgic Bindbpoints were based on Acupuncture - discussed with WoBs and example images in this post (and my next post after that one). Flowing blood is a requirement, but the points themselves do not seem to be based on the circulatory system.

[DoctaDajman]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Marsh received guidance from Ruin when implanting a spike in Penrod in HoA, so I think it's most likely the Thug who spiked Spook was also receiving subconscious guidance. 

I don't think that was as necessary with Paalm, as they just needed to punch a hole in her Spiritweb with Wax's earring-bullet. Anywhere would probably have worked, assuming it drove deep enough. 

It appears that both the placement in the donor and the recipient matter (at least if you want properly functioning powers), as Atium Hemalurgy can be screwed up if you aren't precise in stabbing your kidnapped Mistborn.

  Hide contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/377-idaho-falls-signing/#e12283

Questioner

My question was about Hemalurgy. There was a disagreement on the last Shardcast. When spiking a Mistborn to charge a Hemalurgic spike, does it matter how the Mistborn is killed or is what power is stolen based only on the metal?

Brandon Sanderson

So you want to place the spike in a specific place.

Questioner

In the donor. In the recipient, not the donor.

Brandon Sanderson

In the recipient. And you want to use the specific metal and so basically if you aren't precise about how you spike, you risk taking the wrong thing within the same family. Some of those, that's not as big a deal, but for some it is kind of a big deal. And so you want to be very precise, you'll get something, but if you're not placing the spike in the right place and going into the right place, then you risk it.

Questioner

You risk stealing the wrong thing.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Now if you're going off of somebody who's not a Mistborn, you can be a little more flexible, but you still have the danger that you're not going to end up stealing the power, you're going to steal something else. So, precision is advisable, how about that?

Questioner

Yeah. Because the question was kind of specifically about, like, we know that atium spikes can kill-- can steal pretty much any power.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You want to be super precise with your atium spike.

Questioner

So, part of the question was like, exactly, if you just killed a Mistborn, you stab a Mistborn in the heart with an atium spike, and you're not placing it immediately--

Brandon Sanderson

What do you end up with? You are rolling the dice, let's say. Not as big a roll of the dice as you might think, but you still are. You might not get what you want.

Questioner

And then when you place the spike on the recipient, if you like tore that spike out again and put it in someone else, you're not going to be able to get more than one power out of it?

Brandon Sanderson

No. No, and if you place the spike in the wrong place, then you're going to end up with interference and things like this where the spike might just not work the way you want it to. Taking a spike and putting it in the wrong place in someone is not going to make them have a different power, in other words.

 

They probably can't directly affect the aluminum, as Investiture thus far seems incapable of it. But they could probably guide the hand of a person trying to make use of it, which would be largely the same, I think.

I would assume it would be harder than has been proposed simply for balancing issues, but I don't know for certain. Aluminum on its own is honestly a pretty dangerous weapon.

Absolutely. Even if you dont steal all powers aluminum stops healing until it is removed. Digging out bullets would be really hard while fighting for ones life. Especially if it has some sort of aoe effect and your flesh won't even try to close in proximity to it. 

Hitting the right bindpoint to erase all abilities is just a bonus. 

If you fail in your attempts over and over again does that intent start to not be true intent?  Spray and pray while thinking I'm spiking you and stealing your junk may not count as true intent. 

I think of intent as being intentional in what you are doing if you are trying to hit a specific bindpoint while not really trying to hit the bindpoint but instead hoping one of the bullets hits it, I think your attempt at true intent may not count as well. 

[alder24]

14 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

For Paalm I wonder about this same thing. Did Harmony guide the bullet (unlikely that he could change the course of the bullet) or did he position Wax properly or does kandra anatomy explain the issues with placement? 

It's possible Harmony guided Wax's hand. The night that day was very Misty, Harmony acts through Mists (they are always present during important events in Wax's life) and Wax ingested Mists at some point in the past. I think Wax was also spiked that night as well (his earring), which would give Harmony the ability to guide his hand to aim for the proper binding point. Harmony interleaved in AoL to make sure that the box with his guns and mistcloak would be at the location where the climax took place and that Wax would find it. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Has Wax drawn on the mists at some point?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

 

[Quantus he/him]

35 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It's possible Harmony guided Wax's hand. The night that day was very Misty, Harmony acts through Mists (they are always present during important events in Wax's life) and Wax ingested Mists at some point in the past. I think Wax was also spiked that night as well (his earring), which would give Harmony the ability to guide his hand to aim for the proper binding point. Harmony interleaved in AoL to make sure that the box with his guns and mistcloak would be at the location where the climax took place and that Wax would find it. 

  Hide contents

Questioner

Has Wax drawn on the mists at some point?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

 

It also might not have mattered in those specific instances, since any bind point would work equally.  There are two scenario's where all bind points logically act the same: Aluminum Power Blocking Spikes, and Shardic Control of Kandra via two or more spikes.  For those you dont care about a successful removal of Spiritweb or reintegration, just the basic realmic effect of the spike's presence. And hitting ANY bind point is a lot easier than hitting a specific one, and there are some specific ones that are relatively big targets.  Shooting somebody through the eye socket is well withing Wax's abilities, for example, and WOB says there's a dense cluster of them around the heart so it might legitimately be hard to miss them all with a heart shot.  

 

PS. If we're talking about the night wax shot Paalm, Wax was not spiked at the time because that spike is the one he turned into a bullet and shot her with. He didnt shoot her with aluminum, it was his Pathian earring made into a bullet.  

[DoctaDajman]

35 minutes ago, Quantus said:

It also might not have mattered in those specific instances, since any bind point would work equally.  There are two scenario's where all bind points logically act the same: Aluminum Power Blocking Spikes, and Shardic Control of Kandra via two or more spikes.  For those you dont care about a successful removal of Spiritweb or reintegration, just the basic realmic effect of the spike's presence. And hitting ANY bind point is a lot easier than hitting a specific one, and there are some specific ones that are relatively big targets.  Shooting somebody through the eye socket is well withing Wax's abilities, for example, and WOB says there's a dense cluster of them around the heart so it might legitimately be hard to miss them all with a heart shot.  

 

PS. If we're talking about the night wax shot Paalm, Wax was not spiked at the time because that spike is the one he turned into a bullet and shot her with. He didnt shoot her with aluminum, it was his Pathian earring made into a bullet.  

Thinking about Kandra I feel like they may be the only real characters in the cosmere who might not be effected by aluminum weapons. 

The kandras "powers" aren't even a part of their own spirit web. Would aluminum spikes steal their ability to be kandra without removing the spikes that complete their spiritweb? 

But then that would have to be asked about all hemalurgic spikes right?  Can aluminum spikes remove the powers granted from other hemalurgic spikes or only powers that are a part of the individuals spirit web?  

I know that spikes implant a part of the other persons spiritweb but it is still the victims spirit web and it is stapled onto the host. 

Example. You spike a pewter arm and steal pewter allomancy. Now you go and give it to a tin eye. That tineye never becomes a pewterarm... they can use pewter because they have a spot on their spirit web that can access that power from someone else's spiritweb. 

So now that person gets spiked by aluminum. Does it ruin their spiritweb and short circuit the spike holding pewter allomancy? Or does the tineye lose his powers but still able to use the pewterarm powers? 

[Quantus he/him]

28 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

Thinking about Kandra I feel like they may be the only real characters in the cosmere who might not be effected by aluminum weapons. 

The kandras "powers" aren't even a part of their own spirit web. Would aluminum spikes steal their ability to be kandra without removing the spikes that complete their spiritweb? 

But then that would have to be asked about all hemalurgic spikes right?  Can aluminum spikes remove the powers granted from other hemalurgic spikes or only powers that are a part of the individuals spirit web?  

I know that spikes implant a part of the other persons spiritweb but it is still the victims spirit web and it is stapled onto the host. 

Example. You spike a pewter arm and steal pewter allomancy. Now you go and give it to a tin eye. That tineye never becomes a pewterarm... they can use pewter because they have a spot on their spirit web that can access that power from someone else's spiritweb. 

So now that person gets spiked by aluminum. Does it ruin their spiritweb and short circuit the spike holding pewter allomancy? Or does the tineye lose his powers but still able to use the pewterarm powers? 

The spike works by essentially adding additional functional parts of spiritweb to yours, and since Aluminum spikes can affect more than just scadrian magics I think it would be able to block your use of the powers regardless of whether it was natural or hemalurgic.

I think the weirder question would be how it interacts with medallions.  They are more external but still create and require a Bond to function, so the Aluminum Spike should block those Powers too.  Ettmetal Grenades, on the other hand, require no interaction or Intent from a person so the aluminum spike would not block it.  

[DoctaDajman]

44 minutes ago, Quantus said:

The spike works by essentially adding additional functional parts of spiritweb to yours, and since Aluminum spikes can affect more than just scadrian magics I think it would be able to block your use of the powers regardless of whether it was natural or hemalurgic.

I think the weirder question would be how it interacts with medallions.  They are more external but still create and require a Bond to function, so the Aluminum Spike should block those Powers too.  Ettmetal Grenades, on the other hand, require no interaction or Intent from a person so the aluminum spike would not block it.  

So the working theory is that is just blocks the powers?  I read it as it removes all powers. Which leads me to believe that anything external would be safe. 

But if it blocks all use of powers then that would be interesting. Would it interfere with fabrial technology? 

Edited April 1, 2025 by DoctaDajman

[Quantus he/him]

54 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

So the working theory is that is just blocks the powers?  I read it as it removes all powers. Which leads me to believe that anything external would be safe. 

But if it blocks all use of powers then that would be interesting. Would it interfere with fabrial technology? 

Yes, the working theory is that it grounds out investiture (in the electrical sense).  Per WOB's about Cosmere continuity, no Investiture can stick to aluminum*.  So in the physical world it blocks investiture effects like a Faraday Cage for Investiture.  And if you actually realmically interface it with your spiritweb directly, as with Hemalurgy, it prevents you from ever channeling Investiture and/or creating Investiture-based effects while it's inserted in your spiritweb.  So while you have a part-aluminum spiritweb, thanks to the spike plugged into it, you'd be unable to use allomancy, feruchemy, sandmaster (per WOB), and presumably Surges, honorblades, or anything else that requires a Bond or Investiture to pass into, out of, or through you.  

*Which means that neither aluminum metalminds or aluminum Spikes ever actually gain an Investiture Charge, which is consistent with the evidence so far.    

Under this explanation it's interference rather than destruction (consistent with the Aluminum vs Silver WOBs) so logically those powers would come back once the Spike was removed unless they are specifically fragile.  For example, it might just Kill a Returned because of the Divine Breath aspect of their Spiritweb, but since WOB says normal breaths are in the body and not the spiritweb, they might be safe.  Im guessing that a Radiant bond would be suppress but not destroyed (the way leeching does not permanently sever it), and ditto Aviar bonds.  Im assuming that All Powers interference would extend to things that create weak/temporary bonds like Midnight Essence spores, honorblades, or medallions. But anything that can operate entirely without sapient intervention like ettmetal devices or most rosharan fabrials would be safe unless the aluminum was physically close/touching it (to interfere the normal aluminum way).

 

 

[DoctaDajman]

59 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Yes, the working theory is that it grounds out investiture (in the electrical sense).  Per WOB's about Cosmere continuity, no Investiture can stick to aluminum*.  So in the physical world it blocks investiture effects like a Faraday Cage for Investiture.  And if you actually realmically interface it with your spiritweb directly, as with Hemalurgy, it prevents you from ever channeling Investiture and/or creating Investiture-based effects while it's inserted in your spiritweb.  So while you have a part-aluminum spiritweb, thanks to the spike plugged into it, you'd be unable to use allomancy, feruchemy, sandmaster (per WOB), and presumably Surges, honorblades, or anything else that requires a Bond or Investiture to pass into, out of, or through you.  

*Which means that neither aluminum metalminds or aluminum Spikes ever actually gain an Investiture Charge, which is consistent with the evidence so far.    

Under this explanation it's interference rather than destruction (consistent with the Aluminum vs Silver WOBs) so logically those powers would come back once the Spike was removed unless they are specifically fragile.  For example, it might just Kill a Returned because of the Divine Breath aspect of their Spiritweb, but since WOB says normal breaths are in the body and not the spiritweb, they might be safe.  Im guessing that a Radiant bond would be suppress but not destroyed (the way leeching does not permanently sever it), and ditto Aviar bonds.  Im assuming that All Powers interference would extend to things that create weak/temporary bonds like Midnight Essence spores, honorblades, or medallions. But anything that can operate entirely without sapient intervention like ettmetal devices or most rosharan fabrials would be safe unless the aluminum was physically close/touching it (to interfere the normal aluminum way).

 

 

Now I picture some maximum security prison where inmates have aluminum implanted into them to ground out their powers or whatever.  

 

Like someone uses emotional allomancy in ways that break the laws and they serve their time of not being able to use it anymore or whatever. 

 

Though I think the Nicrosil spikes will be punishments worse than death. It would be foolish to not harvest innate investiture off of criminals who are destined to never be of use in society again... but now I sound like a crazy person.  

 

If criminals could be apprehended via some aluminum needle embedded into the pair of handcuffs then they could stand trial safely and their abilities could be harvested on deathrow for the betterment of society.  For those life with out parol folks just skim off their innate investiture as their last way of giving back to society what their criminal dealings had taken from it. 

Edited April 1, 2025 by DoctaDajman

[Quantus he/him]

49 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

Now I picture some maximum security prison where inmates have aluminum implanted into them to ground out their powers or whatever.  

 

Like someone uses emotional allomancy in ways that break the laws and they serve their time of not being able to use it anymore or whatever. 

Agreed, and Ive long expected to see exactly that eventually.  At minimum it would be a very reasonable and humane (assuming it's reversable) way to contain metalborn and/or off-world criminals while they're actually in prison, but it might also be a sort of parole where they are allowed Out but not allowed to keep their powers active.

49 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

 

Though I think the Nicrosil spikes will be punishments worse than death. It would be foolish to not harvest innate investiture off of criminals who are destined to never be of use in society again... but now I sound like a crazy person.  

 

If criminals could be apprehended via some aluminum needle embedded into the pair of handcuffs then they could stand trial safely and their abilities could be harvested on deathrow for the betterment of society.  For those life with out parol folks just skim off their innate investiture as their last way of giving back to society what their criminal dealings had taken from it. 

That becomes a whole other can of worms that will depend heavily on the cultural outlook on Hemalurgy. It would make sense for people who are about to Die to want to leave a piece of themselves for their family and heirs, etc.  But it's so easy to abuse with good ol' fashioned Murder that it would inevitably become a legal flashpoint.  Just like the RL debates about assisted Suicide, there's a lot to untangle before the whole population would accept it.  I doubt it would ever get to the point of Harvesting inmates against their will, but I could see a blanket Cultural Right to leave a piece of yourself behind that could still be open to inmates.