Retribution?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, Ashbringer said:

… I don’t quite follow?

Waves even more vaguely in Battar

Nale does not consider whether he should uphold the law whenever the question arises. He has sworn to do so, because he feels that is a worthy goal to dedicate your person to. He swore that oath because he wanted to be noble.

In Battar you have a person acting totally rational. She does a service for a fee because it pays well. Yes, she is mentally ill. She is mentally ill precisely because she acts fully rational. People are supposed to have emotions that constrain their behavior.

[AlmightyGir]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

You are showing an example of emotion. Nale has sworn on his honor to uphold the law. If you want an example of a rational actor, look at Batar.

Nale is a more complex example than you give him credit for... All of the Heralds made this oath (or a slight variation of) when forging the original Oathpact:

Quote

"I swear this oath to you, Honor, I will hold back the darkness. I will protect this land."

Nale, however, later became not just the Herald of Justice, but became a Skybreaker with his own bonded Highspren as well. Even as late as Rythm of War, he says:

Quote

The law cannot be moral... But you can be moral as you create laws. Ever must you protect the weakest, those most likely to be taken advantage of. 

But his becoming of a fifth ideal Skybreaker, combined with the influence of his Highspren (who we've seen, seem to have some kind of agenda among their own group), and his millenia of existence have seemingly caused him to forget his principal role: To protect the land, and hold back the darkness.

He's also seemingly forgotten the implication that protecting the land and holding back the darkness, means to also protect the people

Nale has spent the better part of a hundred years acting entirely rationally, passionless, and ultimately flawed as he went around hunting potential Radiants in an effort to stop the Desolation from returning. Using the letter of the law to justify his actions.

Battar, also swore to hold back the darkness, and protect the land. The same oath they all swore. She swore that on her Honor. Regardless of anything else the Heralds have done since, this is their primary oath.

[AceBassMan]

I believe the combination of Honor and Passion would be something more like Obsession than Retribution. We've seen that Honor feels it's intent is more aligned with keeping oaths and the rigid letter of agreements rather than acting nobly, protecting people, or being kind. Since Valor exists I've often thought that's where those elements of Honor went. But keeping an oath with extreme levels of passion would undoubtedly be an Obsession, no? 

Edited April 1, 2025 by AceBassMan

[Treamayne]

5 hours ago, AceBassMan said:

I believe the combination of Honor and Passion would be something more like Obsession than Retribution

Keep in mind that Odium is not Passion. Rayse wanted to be perceived that way, but that is not the Shard's Intent. WoB:

Spoiler

<edited for length and relevance>

yulerule

So it's the flavor-- Because I actually did have it - they're all translations, why not Hatred [instead of Odium?] 

Brandon Sanderson

Because Odium is cooler. It just sounds cooler. There is no answer other than "I like the word better."

yulerule

Is there any connection with the thought that it's not Hatred? Because in Oathbringer, he says he's Passion?

Brandon Sanderson

He would claim that he's Passion and not Odium. But that is part of why I chose it. Hatred felt too on-the-nose, because there is quite arguably that step toward just being all Passion, and that's what he claims that he is.

JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018)

No emotion exists in a vacuum so there are small bits of other things, but even Taravangian calls this out when he first ascends. RoW Ch 114:

Spoiler

The power of gods. In his specific case, the power of emotion, passion, and—most deeply—the power of raw, untamed fury. Of hatred unbound.

 

[Xaladin he/him]

An eye for an eye originally meant if you take out someone’s eye, you owe them an eye. Meaning, you should now do for them what they can no longer do because of their missing eye. That biblical law was never about retribution or revenge.

[Through the Living Shadow he/him]

On 3/14/2025 at 12:53 AM, ConfusedCow said:

I don't like Retribution.  Shocking I know. 

What I mean is I think Honor + Odium, or Honor + Passion, ought to not equal Retribution.

Retribution is a petty, small minded feeling, unbefitting of a shard let alone two.  Incongruous with Taravangians' sweeping plans and philosophy.  It is focused on narcissistic goals of getting even or some naive sense of fairness.   It has none of the grandeur of Honor nor the consuming force of Odium.  This one detail really irks me about the book, which I think is the weakest in the series.   It undermines and cheapens this great calamity.  Oppression, Enmity, Contempt, Pride/Hubris, or even Storm would have been better.  

Ehhhh

It is different from Honor, and it is different from Odium - but remember, as stated in light merging in RoW, both tones change before they meld together. 

Yes, it isn't sweeping plans like what we saw from Taravangian, but that makes sense - like even Ati (stated by Hoid to be the best of the Vessels) was corrupted by Ruin, except this is the power of the intent of two Shards, not just one. 

Retribution - it's definition is semantic. But I think pettiness is extremely fitting for a Shard. As Dalinar saw in Honor, they are children. Oppression has no sense of Honor, Enmity is almost (not really, though) a synonym of Odium, Contempt is the same, Pride/Hubris is a good candidate, but it doesn't have as much of a factor of Odium, Storm is too close to the Stormfather.

[therunner he/him]

5 hours ago, Xaladin said:

An eye for an eye originally meant if you take out someone’s eye, you owe them an eye. Meaning, you should now do for them what they can no longer do because of their missing eye. That biblical law was never about retribution or revenge.

That is not correct.

1. The 'eye for an eye' principle is about reciprocal justice, i.e. punishment must be proportional to crime. It dates back to Code of Hammurabi, and it was about limits on retribution/retaliation, not about doing something for the damaged party.
2. Hebrew law it was then extended to ability to pay proportionally to damage for any crime except murder (which was still punishable by death, in accordance with 'eye for an eye' principle).

So no, it was in fact about retribution, and it was not about doing something for the damaged party.

[AceBassMan]

12 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Keep in mind that Odium is not Passion. Rayse wanted to be perceived that way, but that is not the Shard's Intent. WoB:

  Hide contents

<edited for length and relevance>

yulerule

So it's the flavor-- Because I actually did have it - they're all translations, why not Hatred [instead of Odium?] 

Brandon Sanderson

Because Odium is cooler. It just sounds cooler. There is no answer other than "I like the word better."

yulerule

Is there any connection with the thought that it's not Hatred? Because in Oathbringer, he says he's Passion?

Brandon Sanderson

He would claim that he's Passion and not Odium. But that is part of why I chose it. Hatred felt too on-the-nose, because there is quite arguably that step toward just being all Passion, and that's what he claims that he is.

JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018)

No emotion exists in a vacuum so there are small bits of other things, but even Taravangian calls this out when he first ascends. RoW Ch 114:

  Hide contents

The power of gods. In his specific case, the power of emotion, passion, and—most deeply—the power of raw, untamed fury. Of hatred unbound.

 

He is passion though. It just that Odium is cooler, and passion without temperance from things like Reason and Mercy makes it all just look like hatred, even the love.

[LeondeBowa]

37 minutes ago, AceBassMan said:

He is passion though. It just that Odium is cooler, and passion without temperance from things like Reason and Mercy makes it all just look like hatred, even the love.

He actively isn't just passion mate, the text says that explicitly and WoB too.

[AceBassMan]

10 minutes ago, LeondeBowa said:

He actively isn't just passion mate, the text says that explicitly and WoB too.

He actively isn't just hate mate, the text says that explicitly and WoB too.

[Through the Living Shadow he/him]

2 hours ago, AceBassMan said:

He actively isn't just hate mate, the text says that explicitly and WoB too.

…

might I see that WoB?

[QuantumAce]

3 hours ago, AceBassMan said:

He is passion though. It just that Odium is cooler, and passion without temperance from things like Reason and Mercy makes it all just look like hatred, even the love.

To be specific, he is Odium instead of Hatred because Odium is cooler. It does not say he is Odium instead of Passion because Odium is cooler. 

2 hours ago, AceBassMan said:

He actively isn't just hate mate, the text says that explicitly and WoB too.

They use the words emotion and passion, both of which can be an aspect of fury and hatred.  For your statement to be correct, you would need text and WoB to specify emotion and passion for something outside of fury and hatred. 

[ConfusedCow]

I liked the ambiguity of Odium/Passion.  It makes Odium a better character.  More importantly hate and love are disturbingly, dangerously, intimately, connected.  

    Also I really liked the Odium+Honor = Obsession idea.  Eye for an eye is clearly a pretty vicious notion.  It ends in blindness in many different ways.  

Edited April 3, 2025 by ConfusedCow
I'm struggling with the difference between viscous and vicious. You should see the syrup I poured on my pancakes

[AceBassMan]

1 hour ago, SpiritOfWrath said:

…

might I see that WoB?

That same WoB
 

Spoiler

yulerule

So it's the flavor-- Because I actually did have it - they're all translations, why not Hatred [instead of Odium?] 

Brandon Sanderson

Because Odium is cooler. It just sounds cooler. There is no answer other than "I like the word better."

yulerule

Is there any connection with the thought that it's not Hatred? Because in Oathbringer, he says he's Passion?

Brandon Sanderson

He would claim that he's Passion and not Odium. But that is part of why I chose it. Hatred felt too on-the-nose, because there is quite arguably that step toward just being all Passion, and that's what he claims that he is.

yulerule

His own perception of himself, can perception, in the cosmere, can that influence?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it can influence.

yulerule

So the Shard's Intent can--

Brandon Sanderson

Can be influenced by their perception and the holder's, yes.

 

41 minutes ago, QuantumAce said:

To be specific, he is Odium instead of Hatred because Odium is cooler. It does not say he is Odium instead of Passion because Odium is cooler. 

They use the words emotion and passion, both of which can be an aspect of fury and hatred.  For your statement to be correct, you would need text and WoB to specify emotion and passion for something outside of fury and hatred. 

In the WoB above he says Odium is cooler than Hatred but that he wasn't going to use Hatred anyway because it's more than just hatred.

And the quote from Rhythm of War:

"The power of gods. In his specific case, the power of emotion, passion, and—most deeply—the power of raw, untamed fury. Of hatred unbound."
The fact is this line says emotion, passion, and fury all separately, it doesn't say hate, anger, and fury. It would be a bigger assumption to think emotion and passion ONLY mean fury here.

 

Quote from Wind and Truth:

Spoiler

Though it should have been all emotions—and his predecessor had insisted that was his purview—the power did not like subtle emotions. It liked loud ones. The passion of fiery lust, yes. But genuine love? Things such as love and contentment felt like the purview of other gods. They had taken some slices of its … portfolio, so to speak, during the Shattering. It liked anger most of all. Anger could simmer when passion gave out. Anger could rule a person longer than any lust. Anger was true fire.

This is why he is Odium, anger is the biggest and most powerful part of him, but not the only part. Retribution definitely makes sense, anger and an oath. But if you include any other part of him, like lust: anger+lust+oath=Obsession. Dunno which is scarier.

[QuantumAce]

49 minutes ago, AceBassMan said:

The fact is this line says emotion, passion, and fury all separately, it doesn't say hate, anger, and fury. It would be a bigger assumption to think emotion and passion ONLY mean fury here.

While not exclusive, it shows hatred, anger, and fury are the defining characteristics of the power. Everything you have posted supports the idea it is more accurate to call Odium the god of hatred, instead of passion in general. And just to clarify, calling Odium the god of hatred does not restrict him from experiencing any other emotions. He can even choose to put other emotions ahead of hatred, but that is where the intent will push him. 

 

1 hour ago, ConfusedCow said:

I liked the ambiguity of Odium/Passion.  It makes Odium a better character.  More importantly hate and love are disturbingly, dangerously, intimately, connected.  

    Also I really liked the Odium+Honor = Obsession idea.  Eye for an eye is clearly a pretty viscous notion.  It ends in blindness in many different ways.  

A major theme of the Cosmere is that each shard has a specific intent, that represents only a portion of Adonalsium. They are not supposed to be balanced.  Having hatred be the focus of his passion fits that theme. Giving a character limits and weaknesses does not make them worse. It introduces conflict and risk, which many people find interesting. 

There is still plenty of overlap between Retribution and Obsession. Its just angry obsession. What if someone has wronged you by ignoring you? The punishment would be forcing them to give you attention, not necessarily attention in the form of eye removal*. 

 

*I did not read the text as limiting Retribution to literal eye removal in all situations. If anything, eye removal would be restricted to situations where the original offense involved loss of an eye. Unless Brandon really wants to double down on Moash and Navani, I don't anticipate eye removal taking a significant portion of Retributions focus. I could be wrong, this is just my personal opinion. 

[AceBassMan]

15 hours ago, QuantumAce said:

While not exclusive, it shows hatred, anger, and fury are the defining characteristics of the power. Everything you have posted supports the idea it is more accurate to call Odium the god of hatred, instead of passion in general. And just to clarify, calling Odium the god of hatred does not restrict him from experiencing any other emotions. He can even choose to put other emotions ahead of hatred, but that is where the intent will push him. 

As you say, the shard is passion and emotion but it's focus is the most powerful ones, anger and hate shine through. We're both saying the same thing, it's just incorrect to say that the shard is only anger and hatred.

Excerpt from Rhythm when Taravangian ascends:

"It killed the person holding that power, however, which left a hole. A need. A... vacuum, like a gemstone suddenly without Storm- light. It reached out, and Taravangian felt a distinct Connection to it. Passion. Hatred. Today, Taravangian was only passion. Hatred, fear, anger, shame, awe. Bravery. The power loved these things, and it surged around him, enveloping him. His soul vibrated. Take me, the power pled, speaking not in words, but in emotion. You are perfect. I am yours."

[LeondeBowa]

41 minutes ago, AceBassMan said:

As you say, the shard is passion and emotion but it's focus is the most powerful ones, anger and hate shine through. We're both saying the same thing, it's just incorrect to say that the shard is only anger and hatred.

Excerpt from Rhythm when Taravangian ascends:

"It killed the person holding that power, however, which left a hole. A need. A... vacuum, like a gemstone suddenly without Storm- light. It reached out, and Taravangian felt a distinct Connection to it. Passion. Hatred. Today, Taravangian was only passion. Hatred, fear, anger, shame, awe. Bravery. The power loved these things, and it surged around him, enveloping him. His soul vibrated. Take me, the power pled, speaking not in words, but in emotion. You are perfect. I am yours."

You're saying it's passion, where is the love, the care, the positive emotions that let you engage with others? They aren't in Odium.

They are in Devotion, I would agree that the combination of Odium and Devotion could be called Passion, but that isn't Odium

[Treamayne]

36 minutes ago, AceBassMan said:

it's just incorrect to say that the shard is only anger and hatred.

But, my earlier point was that it is equally wrong to imply that Odium is all emotions - Love, for example, belongs to Devotion. In the quote you reference:

Quote

38 minutes ago, AceBassMan said:

Taravangian was only passion. Hatred, fear, anger, shame, awe. Bravery.

 

That list is the emotions Taravangian expressed in the scene - not a list of emotions conneted to Odium (bravery, which likely belongs to Valor, gives it away - as referenced below). I think of it as a venn diagram - Odium's intent is Hatred, but also includes those strong emotions that intersect with that circle. More than hatred, yes. All emotion, no. All Passion, also no. Hatred adjacent passions, yes. 

RoW Ch 113:

Quote

Cold steel bit Taravangian’s skin as Szeth stabbed him right in the chest. At the same moment, Taravangian felt something pushing through his fear, his pain. An emotion he’d never thought to feel himself. Bravery.

Bravery surged through him, so powerfully he could not help but move. It was the dying courage of a man on the front lines charging an enemy army. The glory of a woman fighting for her child. The feeling of an old man on his last day of life stepping into darkness.

Bravery.

 

[LeondeBowa]

3 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

But, my earlier point was that it is equally wrong to imply that Odium is all emotions - Love, for example, belongs to Devotion. In the quote you reference:

That list is the emotions Taravangian expressed in the scene - not a list of emotions conneted to Odium (bravery, which likely belongs to Valor, gives it away - as referenced below). I think of it as a venn diagram - Odium's intent is Hatred, but also includes those strong emotions that intersect with that circle. More than hatred, yes. All emotion, no. All Passion, also no. Hatred adjacent passions, yes. 

RoW Ch 113:

 

Okay, so the problem we are having is around absolutes, I would NOT say someone holding odiums shard would be unable to to feel or express other emotions but that does not mean the shard is a passion shard, the shard inculcates and encourages negative selfish emotions like hate and the complimentary emotions which justify and rationalise those emotions like sadness and rage, but the largest and ultimate source is the hate, the Odium

I would also point out the bravery quote you have used is not odium, it's before Taraviangian picked up the shard

[AceBassMan]

10 minutes ago, LeondeBowa said:

You're saying it's passion, where is the love, the care, the positive emotions that let you engage with others? They aren't in Odium.

They are in Devotion, I would agree that the combination of Odium and Devotion could be called Passion, but that isn't Odium

You are ASSUMING those things are in Devotion, as we haven't had any wording or statements or proof to that end. I didn't say that the shard Odium was emotion, but that is is more than just anger and hatred. We have also not had any other shard attributed with emotions in writing, we've seen in Wind and Truth the shard Honor doesn't care about emotions, only oaths. 

 

12 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

That list is the emotions Taravangian expressed in the scene - not a list of emotions conneted to Odium (bravery, which likely belongs to Valor, gives it away - as referenced below). I think of it as a venn diagram - Odium's intent is Hatred, but also includes those strong emotions that intersect with that circle. More than hatred, yes. All emotion, no. All Passion, also no. Hatred adjacent passions, yes.

No, the shard loves those emotions, it literally says that.

"It reached out, and Taravangian felt a distinct Connection to it. Passion. Hatred. Today, Taravangian was only passion. Hatred, fear, anger, shame, awe. Bravery. The power loved these things, and it surged around him, enveloping him. His soul vibrated. Take me, the power pled, speaking not in words, but in emotion. You are perfect. I am yours."

 

I'm not saying the shard Odium is all emotions because the text doesn't say that. It DOES however say that the shard Odium is also emotions besides just anger and hate but that it focuses on those the most.

[Treamayne]

19 minutes ago, AceBassMan said:

You are ASSUMING those things are in Devotion, as we haven't had any wording or statements or proof to that end.

It is one of the oldest WoBs - from 2011 (note that questioner is wrong about Skai back then - who was the vessel of Dominion):

Spoiler

Puck (paraphrased)

Does Aona equal Love or Compassion?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You have it, it's just a synonym there. You basically have it

Puck (paraphrased)

Does Skai equal Devotion or Order?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You're not on there. But you are on on the first one [Aona].

Vericon 2011 (March 19, 2011)

 

19 minutes ago, AceBassMan said:

No, the shard loves those emotions, it literally says that.

"It reached out, and Taravangian felt a distinct Connection to it. Passion. Hatred. Today, Taravangian was only passion. Hatred, fear, anger, shame, awe. Bravery. The power loved these things, and it surged around him, enveloping him. His soul vibrated. Take me, the power pled, speaking not in words, but in emotion. You are perfect. I am yours."

 

I'm not saying the shard Odium is all emotions because the text doesn't say that. It DOES however say that the shard Odium is also emotions besides just anger and hate but that it focuses on those the most.

Didn't disagree. The power also liked Sja Anat's expression of disagreement. RoW I-2:

Spoiler

“I would be of much more use in the tower,” she said. “Better that I—”

You question? Do not question.

“I will not question.” However, she felt a surging to the power that moved within him. The mind did not like being questioned, but the power … It liked questions. It liked arguments.

Like a recipe, not every ingredient has to be Odium-adjacent for the power to "Like" the mix of all of those things. Just because Bravery was one of the emotions Taravangian was experienceing does not mean that Bravery is part of Odium's intent - Odium's intent is, partly, the strength of the emotion felt, and the very strong mix of "Hatred, fear, anger, shame, awe. Bravery." includes at least the Primary intent and three adjacent emotions - all expereienced very strongly. 

WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

In universe, all the intents and charts and names, who names them? Do they name themselves?

Brandon Sanderson

I have kind of imagined this is one of those things that they certainly have influence over. But obviously Odium thinks that he's named something other than what he is, and I feel like these are intrinsic things that the sixteen all knew. Like, "I am missing this part of me, it is this." And it was less "we went around and named them" more like "this is just what it is". And various Shards are resisting that, but the others are all like "No, this is what you represent". 

Billy Todd, Moderator

Follow-up question there. Would the entity that we call Odium refer to itself as Odium when it's honest with itself?

Brandon Sanderson

Ehhh, I don't think Odium is capable of being honest with himself. *laughter* There are times where Odium has called himself Odium. That is more out of convenience and the fact that everyone calls you by a name. But Odium is determined to change that perception. 

Billy Todd, Moderator

So, does he genuinely believe in characterizing himself as Passion?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Part of him does.

Billy Todd, Moderator

Has he always ever been Odium since the Shattering?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

Hope that helps

Edited April 3, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[AceBassMan]

8 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

It is one of the oldest WoBs - from 2011 (note that questioner is wrong about Skai back then - who was the vessel of Dominion):

Isn't this talking about the Aon: Aona? So Aons are named for love, we can assume that the shard Devotion appreciated love, that is the extent of our evidence.

 

14 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Like a recipe, not every ingredient has to be Odium-adjacent for the power to "Like" the mix of all of those things. Just because Bravery was one of the emotions Taravangian was experienceing does not mean that Bravery is part of Odium's intent - Odium's intent is, partly, the strength of the emotion felt, and the very strong mix of "Hatred, fear, anger, shame, awe. Bravery." includes at least the Primary intent and three adjacent emotions - all expereienced very strongly. 

The evidence is that the shard likes strong emotions yes, it is assumption that those emotions have to be mixed with anger or hate in order for the shard to like them, seeing as it likes the curiosity from Sja Anat.

"Though it should have been all emotions—and his predecessor had insisted that was his purview—the power did not like subtle emotions. It liked loud ones. The passion of fiery lust, yes. But genuine love? Things such as love and contentment felt like the purview of other gods. They had taken some slices of its … portfolio, so to speak, during the Shattering."

And lastly from your second WoB:

"But Odium is determined to change that perception."

And from the WoB I quoted earlier:

Spoiler

yulerule

His own perception of himself, can perception, in the cosmere, can that influence?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it can influence.

yulerule

So the Shard's Intent can--

Brandon Sanderson

Can be influenced by their perception and the holder's, yes.

 

[LeondeBowa]

Okay acebass, can you state what you think odium is clearly for me please and the reason you believe so, because I am having trouble understanding your point of view.

[Treamayne]

28 minutes ago, AceBassMan said:

Isn't this talking about the Aon: Aona?

Aona was the vessel of Devotion - killed by Odium. Seons are Splinters of Devotion. Aons are named after Aona (as is the language - Aonic)
Skai was the vessel of Dominion - Killed by Odium. Skaze are Splinters of Dominion. We do not yet know how/if Skai was tied to Fjorden or the Fjordell language. 

 

 

[AceBassMan]

13 minutes ago, LeondeBowa said:

Okay acebass, can you state what you think odium is clearly for me please and the reason you believe so, because I am having trouble understanding your point of view.

I've strictly been using Brandon's words as evidence and trying to avoid conjecture.

The shard Odium is Adonalsium's strong, passionate, predominantly but not exclusively negative emotions, without Adonalsium's tempering traits, with the irrepressible emotions of hate and anger being the most  prevalent.

 

I tried to word it as comprehensively as I could, its basically a summation of the Coppermind entry for Odium, if you care to look it up.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Odium

3 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Aona was the vessel of Devotion - killed by Odium. Seons are Splinters of Devotion. Aons are named after Aona (as is the language - Aonic)
Skai was the vessel of Dominion - Killed by Odium. Skaze are Splinters of Dominion. We do not yet know how/if Skai was tied to Fjorden or the Fjordell language. 

 

 

Thank you for the clarification!