The Potential Misrepresentation of India and Caste by Brandon Sanderson

[Friendshipspren he/him]

Ok so I'm posting this here in the hopes that this will eventually reach Brandon.

Ok so yeah I'm Indian from India who was assigned Hindu at birth and well this is going to be a teeny bit charged culturally but it should be ok cause afaik there are only 2 other Indians here on this site and both agree with me. 

Ok so this is about a planned future trilogy of books set on one of the Cosmere worlds called: 

Spoiler

Dhatri 

This world supposed to be one of the core worlds of the future, possibly secondary only to Roshar, Sel or Scadrial and this world is based on Hindu philosophy , but the problem is Hindu philosophy is welded inexorably to the Caste system. 

Now you are not gonna believe the number of Castes and Subcastes here in India. Simply put : 

THERE ARE 28000 CASTES AND SUBCASTES HERE IN INDIA!!!

I'M NOT JOKING!!!

Even Indian Muslims ,Christians , Sikhs and Buddhists have the Caste system to varying degrees , despite them being nominally based on the Equality of all Men before God or Nirvana ! They have had the Caste system since they were born here or brought to India. That's how pervasive Caste has been historically and it continues to be the case even today .

I'm afraid Brandon will downplay the number of castes on the Indian world and thier pervasiveness and the lack of social mobility inherant to caste by making it similar to : (Stormlight spoilers )

Spoiler

Dahn and Nahn systems in Vorinism

It:s probably best he does that but well it won't be Indian inspired then , it will just be mediaeval Western Europe but with brown ppl.

I'm torn, on the one hand , I hate the Caste system and how it has stunted India historically. It has literally ruined RUINED the lives of atleast 30 billion ppl over the past 3 millenia and continues to ruin the lives of like 1.3 billion ppl to a large degree even today and will continue to ruin billions more lives for atleast 3 more centuries , maybe even longer. 

I'm not using hyperbole, the sins of the Caste system are great enough without exaggeration. 

To put it in perspective for y'all Western folks , the Caste system was wayyyyy, wayyyyy worse than the Transatlantic Slave Trade in every metric since it lasted longer , continues even today and has affected billions unlike the relatively paltry millions the slave trade affected. 

______

But yeah anyway on the other hand ,  well Caste also defines India. Caste is as important as Gender or Skin Colour to us. More important actually. Again I'm not joking. 

So yeah I'm torn between wanting an accurate representation of Indian culture and the knowledge that it will ruin that world if Brandon translates Indian society exactly.

There are fantasy novels by Indian authors that downplay the Caste system for that very reason, but they focus on Indian gods a lot however so it's still an authentic representation of India.

That won't be the case with the Cosmere

Maybe if the world of Warbreaker was the Indian world it might have worked but I don't think this Cosmere world will.

______

The Caste system ruined us you know. We could have eclipsed China without it . We come relatively close even now with the chains of Caste binding us still.

Without caste, we would have been greater than China as we have better geography , like we are closer to the Arab oil fields and we sit at the centre of a naval trade route which holds 70% of global trade and the entire Indian Ocean is our lake even today.

China on the other hand has to compete with America and even Japan for control of the Pacific. 

So yes, without Caste , India might have been equivalent to USA in wealth and power even 

_____

I hope Brandon can like capture that...... the Truth about India and Caste. 

This isn't even my Athiests dislike of religion anymore you know. Caste has gone way beyond Religion, Transcended it into becoming something sinister and purely Evil . Such has been the case for atleast 2000 yrs. 

I hope Brandon has atleast like a minimal Caste system with atleast 500 Castes and a throwaway line on how that world could have rivalled Roshar or Scadrial or Sel ,if it weren't for Caste.

Apparently Brandon has two individuals named Rahul and Kelyani assisting with the world building. I'm afraid however that they might potentially be Caste Apologists who will downplay the vicious oppression of the Caste system historically and in present times.

Ok Das All

Thank you for reading and I'm sorry if this topic made you uncomfortable , but it is the capital T Truth.

 

Edit : Now I know this might sound silly , afterall it's only a fantasy novel and truth is even if Brandon does make it just western Europe but with brown ppl well most PPL would still praise it and i would be disappointed but I would still read it too . I wouldn't quit the Cosmere over it. 

 

But well there is such a thing as the Truth and I guess that's why I'm arguing for it . I believe Brandon too cares about representating a culture truthfully. The fact that he has shyed away from writing the Aztlanian cause he's afraid of misrepresentating native American cultures proves it. 

Edited March 5, 2025 by Friendshipspren

[Treamayne]

Thank you for the thoughts and insights.

7 hours ago, Friendshipspren said:

This world supposed to be one of the core worlds of the future, possibly secondary only to Roshar, Sel or Scadrial and this world is based on Hindu philosophy , but the problem is Hindu philosophy is welded inexorably to the Caste system.

While we can't yet know what he has planned, or how that plan will be implemented - we do have two (possibly strong) indicators (Minor Stormlight and Rithmatist spoilers):

Spoiler

1. The Alethi are heavily inspired by the Mongolian Empire (especially culture and expansionist assimilation
   • But note that the Mongolian inspiration is not the only one represented, especially since the religion (vorinism) is not tied to the nation/culture, but has a multi-ethnic background of its own
2. The history of Chalkings and the United Isles are so heavily enmeshed with Aztec culture that the sequel(s) have been delayed for 15 years so far because Bandon is unwilling to write them until he knows he can do the inspirational cultures with the respect they deserve
   • He's hoping to find a Coauthor with the heritage and historical knowledge to do justice to the fictional representation

I think this implies that Brandon is willing to let his plan be challenged and to shelve it if he (or alpha/beta readers) feel it is being unjust to teh represented cultures. But also note that he may also mix other inspirations to make a society that is functionally feasible to the Cosmere setting.

We know that Sanderson has already used elements of a Caste system already (Listeners), so if he does add Caste system(s) to that world, he is likely to take it a different direction than already used. This may mean it is closer to the system you describe, since the current Caste representation had a very different feel and purpose (Caste mobility instead of rigidity - but where any given person's current caste was reflected as a physical change to their body and thoughts). WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

What is the inspiration for the Parshendi?

Brandon Sanderson

There are a lot of different inspirations. One is wanting to build out of the setting a species that interacted with the setting and had a symbiotic relationship with the setting. The other was the idea of a people whose caste system, you could change castes and physically change into other castes of the system. So something like the hives you see, where you can switch from worker to various different tasks. I liked the cultural aspects of what that did.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

Have you considered offering to be on the Beta-reading team for that story? You can use his website's Contact Us page to send a message. Let his team know that you are skeptical, yet hopeful, of how that story will reflect India's heritage and offer to be a native Beta-Reader if they would like feedback on the systems and messages the story employs.

Hope that helps.

[Friendshipspren he/him]

@Treamayne thanks for the reply bro. Yes i knew about The Aztlanian , that's y i made this post actually since I know Brandon cares about representating cultures truthfully 

Now I know this might sound silly , afterall it's only a fantasy novel and truth is even if Brandon does make it just western Europe but with brown ppl well most PPL would still praise it and i would be disappointed but I would still read it too . I wouldn't quit the Cosmere over it. 

But well there is such a thing as the Truth and I guess that's y I'm arguing for it . 

 

I didn't know about your stormlight spoiler referenced before. About the listeners. Thank you for that info

I also didn't know anyone could apply to be beta reader. I will apply to be one for the future trilogy. Thank you so much for the link . 

 

[Treamayne]

4 minutes ago, Friendshipspren said:

I also didn't know anyone could apply to be beta reader. I will apply to be one for the future trilogy.

There are no guarantees, of course, but we do know that in the past he has selected Beta readers specifically for their insights into these kind of references (such as the First Reponder beta-readers for WoK that were added to make sure Kaladin's field medicine was well represented).

[+Wax he/him]

I was born and raised in India till I hit 20s as a “Hindu”.  Now as an atheist and even then, IDGAF about a representation of an artificial world inspired by the legacy world.

Kalki 2898AD tried and built a gorgeous offshoot set in the future despite some flawed execution.

Let Brandon do his thing…. So called “true to historical stories “, is overrated IMO.

PS no need to discuss the caste system or going fully into it. It’s just humans doing human stuff. Gita did not prescribe it. It’s just like the lighteyes/darkeyes/parshendi type of system. It’s been all done before.

Edited April 9, 2025 by Wax

[clowncarcrash]

OK, reading your remarks, I'm kinda confused where you're coming from. 

Are you saying that Brandon would do a disservice to India culture if he didn't include all the nuances and varieties of the caste system? Or is your goal that you want Brandon to rail against the caste system because the caste system, as much as its cultural, hurts your nationalist interest in India on the world stage? 

[The Stormfather He/Him]

I am a little bit lost with what you are trying to say here. I understand your points about the Caste system, but what is it that you actually want Brandon to do?

You said he could include a simplified-ish version of the caste system with something like 500 castes. Have you considered how hard it would be to make something like that readable? I do not have  knowledge of the nuances of the Caste system, but could it possibly be better to have something closer to the dahn/nahn system with more sub-ranks in between? 
i believe it would be much easier to read and easier to understand who stands above who else, from a writers standpoint.

 

[Rorzikel]

I'll make a bit of a prediction. Brandon's India-inspired work will have conlang'd character names based on Indian phonemes/word fragments, cultures and religions that have traits of real-life ones combined with Cosmere concepts, and populations that resemble real Indian ethnicities. You can probably expect more in-depth representation than Scadrial being vaguely European, but not immensely more than Yumi and the Night Painter's Asian inspired elements.

I would not expect a western author writing a non-Earth based fantasy to create an exact replication of reality or a cutting takedown/criticism of another culture. He'll probably have something like brahmin, kshatriyas, viashyas, sudras, and dalits/untouchables, but I'd be very surprised if he has 500 castes. 

[king of nowhere]

the real question is not "how many castes are there". in fact, even on roshar we never saw a lot of the nahns.

the real question is, what does it actually feel to live in a caste system. how does it impact one's life, and society as a whole

besides, while brandon may be inspired by india, his world is not india, and should not look like it.

[The Stormfather He/Him]

On 3/4/2025 at 11:17 PM, Friendshipspren said:

Ok so I'm posting this here in the hopes that this will eventually reach Brandon.

Ok so yeah I'm Indian from India who was assigned Hindu at birth and well this is going to be a teeny bit charged culturally but it should be ok cause afaik there are only 2 other Indians here on this site and both agree with me. 

Ok so this is about a planned future trilogy of books set on one of the Cosmere worlds called: 

  Hide contents

Dhatri 

This world supposed to be one of the core worlds of the future, possibly secondary only to Roshar, Sel or Scadrial and this world is based on Hindu philosophy , but the problem is Hindu philosophy is welded inexorably to the Caste system. 

Now you are not gonna believe the number of Castes and Subcastes here in India. Simply put : 

THERE ARE 28000 CASTES AND SUBCASTES HERE IN INDIA!!!

I'M NOT JOKING!!!

Even Indian Muslims ,Christians , Sikhs and Buddhists have the Caste system to varying degrees , despite them being nominally based on the Equality of all Men before God or Nirvana ! They have had the Caste system since they were born here or brought to India. That's how pervasive Caste has been historically and it continues to be the case even today .

I'm afraid Brandon will downplay the number of castes on the Indian world and thier pervasiveness and the lack of social mobility inherant to caste by making it similar to : (Stormlight spoilers )

  Hide contents

Dahn and Nahn systems in Vorinism

It:s probably best he does that but well it won't be Indian inspired then , it will just be mediaeval Western Europe but with brown ppl.

I'm torn, on the one hand , I hate the Caste system and how it has stunted India historically. It has literally ruined RUINED the lives of atleast 30 billion ppl over the past 3 millenia and continues to ruin the lives of like 1.3 billion ppl to a large degree even today and will continue to ruin billions more lives for atleast 3 more centuries , maybe even longer. 

I'm not using hyperbole, the sins of the Caste system are great enough without exaggeration. 

To put it in perspective for y'all Western folks , the Caste system was wayyyyy, wayyyyy worse than the Transatlantic Slave Trade in every metric since it lasted longer , continues even today and has affected billions unlike the relatively paltry millions the slave trade affected. 

______

But yeah anyway on the other hand ,  well Caste also defines India. Caste is as important as Gender or Skin Colour to us. More important actually. Again I'm not joking. 

So yeah I'm torn between wanting an accurate representation of Indian culture and the knowledge that it will ruin that world if Brandon translates Indian society exactly.

There are fantasy novels by Indian authors that downplay the Caste system for that very reason, but they focus on Indian gods a lot however so it's still an authentic representation of India.

That won't be the case with the Cosmere

Maybe if the world of Warbreaker was the Indian world it might have worked but I don't think this Cosmere world will.

______

The Caste system ruined us you know. We could have eclipsed China without it . We come relatively close even now with the chains of Caste binding us still.

Without caste, we would have been greater than China as we have better geography , like we are closer to the Arab oil fields and we sit at the centre of a naval trade route which holds 70% of global trade and the entire Indian Ocean is our lake even today.

China on the other hand has to compete with America and even Japan for control of the Pacific. 

So yes, without Caste , India might have been equivalent to USA in wealth and power even 

_____

I hope Brandon can like capture that...... the Truth about India and Caste. 

This isn't even my Athiests dislike of religion anymore you know. Caste has gone way beyond Religion, Transcended it into becoming something sinister and purely Evil . Such has been the case for atleast 2000 yrs. 

I hope Brandon has atleast like a minimal Caste system with atleast 500 Castes and a throwaway line on how that world could have rivalled Roshar or Scadrial or Sel ,if it weren't for Caste.

Apparently Brandon has two individuals named Rahul and Kelyani assisting with the world building. I'm afraid however that they might potentially be Caste Apologists who will downplay the vicious oppression of the Caste system historically and in present times.

Ok Das All

Thank you for reading and I'm sorry if this topic made you uncomfortable , but it is the capital T Truth.

 

Edit : Now I know this might sound silly , afterall it's only a fantasy novel and truth is even if Brandon does make it just western Europe but with brown ppl well most PPL would still praise it and i would be disappointed but I would still read it too . I wouldn't quit the Cosmere over it. 

 

But well there is such a thing as the Truth and I guess that's why I'm arguing for it . I believe Brandon too cares about representating a culture truthfully. The fact that he has shyed away from writing the Aztlanian cause he's afraid of misrepresentating native American cultures proves it. 

I think a big thing you should try to think about is that Brandon has to write the things that people will actually read, and will be more enjoyable to read. An in-depth book centered around a caste system would be a good book, but if it is not directly entwined with the main plotline, we don't need a giant sidequest to explain the politics of the world, though they will be there. Of course, with cosmere books, the politics will be very important, but it is important to the writers to not get distracted in too many subplots, and if it is a book about greater cosmere interactions, the caste system will be spoken of and shown in the large gaps between the equivalent of noble/greater/higher ranks/castes to the lower/peasant/lesser ranks/castes (I don't know which words to choose here)

I think, however, its very possible that a line something like this will be somewhere in the book : "Of course, there were thousands/hundreds/dozens/big number of castes, but many were similar to each other. The ones that many of the people used to lump many of them together were (Insert ranks of society here)"

Quote

I do wordlbuilding exclusively of Magic, I don't do politics so my choice of words may be bad.

I don't mean any offense to anybody if it was accidentally implied.

Seeing as many of the newer cosmere novels, such as WaT, IoTE, SM and TLM have (Kinda spoilers for all of those)

Spoiler

Had many greater cosmere connections and generally been centered around the cosmere as a whole and not only the one planet (Less so for WaT and TLM), its very possible that the newer novels will continue in that strand as the timeline progresses and space travel becomes a common occurence in cosmere novels. 

All of this to say : The caste system portrayed in the book will most likely (By my prediction) Be very simplified for readability, but will be implied to be much more complex than the reader really needs to understand to see the pros/cons (In my opinion, mostly cons, again, no offense) of the system.

As I write this, I realize I have been trying to say this as a writer, but also, the only book I've written I started when I was 11, and was approximately a quarter the length of a stormlight book, so take everything with a grain of salt- I do have more a writers standpoint than an average person, but probably not an average person you find on a fantasy series fanbase internet forum.

Hopefully this explains what I am trying to convey, explication of these concepts that form in my mind has long been a fault of mine.

Also...uh.. (Insert weird fantastic way of saying goobye here)

EDIT : I thought of one : May StarClan light your path.

Edited August 3, 2025 by The Stormfather

[Qianweilian He/him]

On 3/4/2025 at 10:17 PM, Friendshipspren said:

This world supposed to be one of the core worlds of the future, possibly secondary only to Roshar, Sel or Scadrial and this world is based on Hindu philosophy , but the problem is Hindu philosophy is welded inexorably to the Caste system. 

Brandon doesn’t really grab entire cultures and just tries to create worlds about them. What he’s done far more often is taken inspiration from certain aspects and woven them together with other cultures. Dhatri isn’t going to be India, it’s going to be, at most, somewhat inspired by some aspects of Indian culture. Just because it is based on Hindu philosophy, doesn’t mean it will have castes. (Case in point, shu dereth is a mix of norse paganism and christianity)

On 3/4/2025 at 10:17 PM, Friendshipspren said:

It:s probably best he does that but well it won't be Indian inspired then , it will just be mediaeval Western Europe but with brown ppl.

Something can be inspired without being a direct copy.

On 3/4/2025 at 10:17 PM, Friendshipspren said:

I'm torn, on the one hand , I hate the Caste system and how it has stunted India historically. It has literally ruined RUINED the lives of atleast 30 billion ppl over the past 3 millenia and continues to ruin the lives of like 1.3 billion ppl to a large degree even today

I mostly agree (as much as a white American can).

On 3/4/2025 at 10:17 PM, Friendshipspren said:

To put it in perspective for y'all Western folks , the Caste system was wayyyyy, wayyyyy worse than the Transatlantic Slave Trade in every metric since it lasted longer , continues even today and has affected billions unlike the relatively paltry millions the slave trade affected. 

I don’t believe this is as clearcut as you say. While this is something than you can argue, I’m not sure that you can say it is “worse…in every metric.” 

On 3/4/2025 at 10:17 PM, Friendshipspren said:

So yeah I'm torn between wanting an accurate representation of Indian culture and the knowledge that it will ruin that world if Brandon translates Indian society exactly.

That’s not going to happen. Brandon will not translate Indian society exactly, just as he doesn’t translate exactly Chinese, Russian, British, French, American, Thai, Arab, or countless other societies.

On 3/4/2025 at 10:17 PM, Friendshipspren said:

The Caste system ruined us you know. We could have eclipsed China without it . We come relatively close even now with the chains of Caste binding us still.

Without caste, we would have been greater than China as we have better geography , like we are closer to the Arab oil fields and we sit at the centre of a naval trade route which holds 70% of global trade and the entire Indian Ocean is our lake even today.

China on the other hand has to compete with America and even Japan for control of the Pacific. 

So yes, without Caste , India might have been equivalent to USA in wealth and power even 

You have no idea if this would be the case. India has spent huge periods divided, something China has not. India isn’t even that close to China today (19.4 trillion gdp vs 4.13 trillion gdp). China has had issues and potential before—the Song dynasty was on the verge of industrialization. If they had, we would be speaking in Chinese on this forum. Even if India developed to be a superpower, they might have to fight with a similar America, an Arab power, some country from Indochina, whatever. Maybe you are right, maybe even probably, but you cannot guarantee that.

On 3/4/2025 at 10:17 PM, Friendshipspren said:

I hope Brandon has atleast like a minimal Caste system with atleast 500 Castes and a throwaway line on how that world could have rivalled Roshar or Scadrial or Sel ,if it weren't for Caste.

Do you want Brandon to write a novel, or a sociopolitical commentary on India?

On 3/4/2025 at 10:17 PM, Friendshipspren said:

I'm afraid however that they might potentially be Caste Apologists who will downplay the vicious oppression of the Caste system historically and in present times.

That might a valid fear, as I said before, I don’t know that much of the Indian castes. But, I do not think that Brandon, given his previous positions and bibliography, would have incredible sympathy towards caste apologists if it truly is as bad as you say.

[Schizoposting]

I am sympathetic, because the caste system is truly terrible, and is undeniably holding India back. But this isn't unique: it's just a particular form of feudal underdevelopment, common amongst the third world. Even China had the same issues prior to its modernization. 

So, the issue of Caste should be included only to the extent to which Brandon intends to critique it, no different to any other social problem. But given the optics, I don't think that he will go down that route. (Although this depends on the people who are helping him with the lore.)

On 3/19/2026 at 1:27 PM, Qianweilian said:

You have no idea if this would be the case. India has spent huge periods divided, something China has not. India isn’t even that close to China today (19.4 trillion gdp vs 4.13 trillion gdp). China has had issues and potential before—the Song dynasty was on the verge of industrialization. If they had, we would be speaking in Chinese on this forum. Even if India developed to be a superpower, they might have to fight with a similar America, an Arab power, some country from Indochina, whatever. Maybe you are right, maybe even probably, but you cannot guarantee that.

There's absolutely nothing intrinsic about the difference the two: for the first half of the 20th century China was far more of a basket case than India—it wasn't even a unified country until 1949. It's only after the CCP took power, that China pulled ahead, through modernizing programs like land reform, and expanding women's rights. But even then, India is still managing to achieve substantial economic growth through the same export-oriented industrialization. While it's difficult to imagine it ever getting close to China's success, it's perfectly plausible that it can become a Thailand or even a Brazil, which given India's enormous population, would make it a major world power.

[Qianweilian He/him]

4 hours ago, Schizoposting said:

It's only after the CCP took power, that China pulled ahead, through modernizing programs like land reform, and expanding women's rights.

It's only after Mao died. Stuff like the Cultural Revolution set them back years.

[Frustration]

11 hours ago, Schizoposting said:

I am sympathetic, because the caste system is truly terrible, and is undeniably holding India back. But this isn't unique: it's just a particular form of feudal underdevelopment, common amongst the third world. Even China had the same issues prior to its modernization. 

That really undersells just how big of an impact the Caste system actually has. The difference between casts in India was over 100x greater than the differences between classes in Europe. They really are not comparable other than in the most superficial of ways.

[Schizoposting]

14 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

It's only after Mao died. Stuff like the Cultural Revolution set them back years.

While it's certainly true that China only started to see its truly spectacular growth after 1978, in terms of things like literacy, infrastructure, state capacity, and industrial output, they were substantially ahead of India (even the Cultural Revolution had less of an impact than you might think). This is why they managed to be the world's fastest growing economy for over 30 years, despite every other third world country also being capitalist. 

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

That really undersells just how big of an impact the Caste system actually has. The difference between casts in India was over 100x greater than the differences between classes in Europe. They really are not comparable other than in the most superficial of ways.

The modern Indian caste system emerged out of British colonialism, so that is not exactly a fair comparison. And historically, many societies have had some kind of caste system, like in Korea, which had the Paekchŏng, who were analogous to the Dalit. The real question is why India is still stuck with this system, while many other countries overcame it.

[Mint11 she/her]

I'm desi, though not Hindu, but I'll say that Brandon is generally cognizant about these things. I'd be shocked if he doesn't have Indian and Hindu sensitivity readers (or alpha or beta readers).

YMMV, it's really hard to find good representation nowadays. Even the books published by POC authors, it seems like the ones that get published and read by a white audience (the majority of the English-speaking world) often read like they're for a white audience more so then our communities. So I'm not particularly hopeful, but ironically I suspect Brandon will be more careful based on things he's said in the past and the fact that he can't fall back on the fact that he's POC to avoid criticism.

Edited Saturday at 02:08 PM by Mint11
small clarification